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Title: Kwame Alexander interview
Date: 2015-10-21
Description: Kwame Alexander is a poet, educator, New York Times bestselling author of 21 books, and recipient of the 2015 Newbery Medal for his novel, The Crossover.
Digital Collection: PoetryCHaT Oral History Collection
Type of resource: text
Object custodian: Special Collections
Related Collection: PoetryCHaT Collection
Local Identifier: AlexanderKwame_20151021
Text preview (might not show all results): Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections PoetryCHaT Kwame Alexander ATTENTION: © Copyright Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. "Fair use" criteria
Show moreWestern Washington University Libraries Special Collections PoetryCHaT Kwame Alexander ATTENTION: © Copyright Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. "Fair use" criteria of Section 107 of the Copyright Act of 1976 must be followed. The following materials can be used for educational and other noncommercial purposes without the written permission of Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. These materials are not to be used for resale or commercial purposes without written authorization from Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. All materials cited must be attributed to Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. This interview was conducted with Kwame Alexander on October 21, 2015, in the Special Collections Conference Room, Western Libraries in Bellingham, Washington. The interviewers are Nancy Johnson and Sylvia Tag. ST: So we are here with Kwame Alexander, who is in Bellingham for several days for the Compass 2 Campus program, as well as lunch with Western students and high school students, and this evening is giving a community presentation. NJ: Sponsored by PoetryCHaT. KA: Welcome to Fresh Air, with Nancy and Sylvia, and Kwame Alexander. ST: If only I was as smart as Terry Gross. NJ: Yeah, really. ST: So, in the tradition that we’re trying to start with these oral histories, we’re hoping that you can talk freely, and we’ll see where it goes. And just kind of a free flow conversation opportunity for you to kind of riff on your own thought process, writing process, what you -NJ: History as a writer. ST: -- some of the insights you have about your own books, interactions, intersections. So we could start out with just some of this. We were just looking at some of the titles, and I was just noticing, myself, some of the interplay between the books. NJ: Are you even aware that you do that? Kwame Alexander Edited Transcript – October 21, 2015 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 1 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections KA: Yes, I’m certainly aware that the poems speak to each other and the books connect with each other. Some of it is intentional. Some of it is like when you get into this sort of rhythm, into this zone of the writing, it just -- it happens, you know. It’s sort of the writerly destiny of it all just takes over, and that’s really exciting. I don’t know how to sort of -- If I could bottle that, it would be wonderful. But I think most of it comes from BIC - Butt In Chair. Like the more you just sit down, and you’re writing, and you’re just living this writerly life, as Langston Hughes’s Jesse B. Semple character used to say, “Everything is connected.” And so the connections sort of find themselves. And it’s kind of cool, it’s exciting, especially when readers like yourself are able to pick up on that. The titles I think are really important to me. I remember my first play that I wrote. It was back in college, and it was a play called Self-Discovery 101: You Gotta Have It. And so, I was at Virginia Tech, and there weren’t a whole lot of black students there, and I really wanted to write a play to talk about what it means to be a black student on a predominantly white campus. And I stayed up all night. I’d never written a play before. I’d read plays, I’d acted in a few plays. I acted in a play on Broadway when I was 13. So at some point, I thought I was going to be an actor. But I was familiar with the theater enough to think that I could write a play. And so I stayed up all night and wrote a play, a two-act play. I remember calling my father about 7:00 in the morning and saying, I wrote a play last night. And I remember him being really excited and telling me, asking me, “What are you going to do with it?” I said, “I’m going to produce the play.” And so I started reading and researching how do you produce a play. And of course you need a director, you need a cast, you need a venue. And so naturally I didn’t have a whole lot of resources at my disposal, so I said, Well, I’ll direct it. I wrote it, I’ll direct it. I’ll get my friends who are in the theater department to act in it, and that was my cast. And then of course I had to find a venue. Well as it turns out, I had received a letter inviting me to a student leadership conference at the College of William and Mary, and that was taking place in about four months. And I said, How cool would that be? They’ve got to have entertainment there, so why not my play as the entertainment? And I’m a sophomore in college, and I remember calling up the director at the College of William and Mary of the student leadership conference and saying, “My name is Kwame Alexander. I’m a playwright at Virginia Tech, and I’d like to offer my play as your entertainment for your student leadership conference.” The sort of the audacity to do something like this is something I was raised with, that level of confidence, to think that the world is at your disposal. And something my father always tells me is that you have to behave and act like you belong in the room. If you don’t believe that you belong in the room, then people are going to notice and you’re not going to be sort of embraced, and there are going to be some opportunities that you’re going to miss. And so I’ve always believed that I belonged in the room, even times when I probably didn’t. But, Dr. Carol Hardy was her name, and she said, “Tell me more about this play.” I said, “It’s about student leadership.” I had all the buzz words. “It’s about black students and how they can, you know, sort of reach their destinies” -- And she said, “Well how much are you charging?” I hadn’t thought that far. I said the biggest number I could come up with. I’m a sophomore, I didn’t have any money, any food in the fridge. “What would be a good amount?” “A thousand dollars.” “Hmm, well, that’s too much.” “Can you do it for $500?” “Yes.” Kwame Alexander Edited Transcript – October 21, 2015 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 2 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections I talked to some friends and so I knew -- I’d written a play, so I knew the number of actors it was going to require, and it was nine. And here I was getting paid $500 for a play that was going to take place three hours, four -- five hours away from my school, and I had to get everyone there, and I had to pay everyone, got to have a place to stay. So I said, “Well, I can do $500, yes, but we’ll need hotel rooms.” She said, “I can give you two rooms.” I said, “Done. And, we’ll need to attend the conference for free.” This conference cost 300 to 400 bucks. And I’d been invited but none of the cast members, I knew, would have been invited. So she agreed to all that. I got my cast together, started rehearsing. The play happened on a Friday night, the opening night of the student leadership conference. It was the main attraction. And I’m 17 years old, I’m thinking, Okay, this is cool. I’m going be a theater minor. My minor was theater. And, the auditorium was 800 people filled. I mean it was exhilarating and it was like, Wow! It was Broadway to me. Like I knew I had arrived (laughter). And we -- the play happened. It went off exactly as we had rehearsed it. It couldn’t have been any better. That is not to say that it was very good, because I only knew so much about the theater. But within the constraints of what I thought was good, it was excellent, at the time. Standing ovation. And of course the students, who were my peers, didn’t know any better either. Standing ovation, the teachers, the professors. The administrator was like, Whoa, what just happened? So, me thinking on my feet, which is another thing that I’ve sort of been groomed to always do. When we were kids we’d be in a grocery store. My father didn’t cook until very later in life, but he shopped. So my sisters and I would be in the grocery store at the checkout line, and he would not let the cashier take an item and ring it up until we could tell him the cost, with the sale and the double coupons. Unless we could tell him what the price was, he wouldn’t let it go through. And this happened for every item. So you had to be able to think very quickly on your feet. And so I remember saying to myself, We’re about to do a question-and-answer. We can do a Q-and-A. And part of it was my ego, like wanting to savor the spotlight. And the standing ovation, and then I said, “Okay, we’re about to have a Q-and-A.” And the actors sat down on stage, and I stood up, and we started taking questions, and it was amazing, the energy in that room. And the whole time I’m answering questions, I’m thinking this is my life. This is what I want to do. I knew it in that moment. I wasn’t able to articulate that it was going to be some combination of writing and presenting, but that’s what I had just done. So I said, this energy, this spirit, this feeling right now, this is what I want to do in my life. And I just got paid $500. It’s a wrap. And so, the Q-and-A goes on for an hour, and it’s 10 o’clock, and people are -- you know, at these kind of conferences for students, Friday night is time to party. So kids, nobody’s like trying to get out of there to go party. They’re staying around asking questions. So one kid asked a question, she’s from Rutgers, and she says, “Kwame, have you thought about taking this play on tour?” And I, come on, I was barely in the room. I barely made it into the room. But my answer was, “Yes, we are doing a tour.” So as she’s saying that, thoughts are going through my head, How can this happen, how can this happen? And so I say, “Well, after everything’s over, tomorrow…” because I knew that my father, who was a book publisher, had a -- Another thing that I’d been able to negotiate was for my father to have a booth, and so he would sell books. So I said, “At booth number Kwame Alexander Edited Transcript – October 21, 2015 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 3 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections so-and-so, I’ll be giving out information on our tour.” So everybody’s like, Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I did something I probably shouldn’t have done. I said, the tour, “It costs $1000 for us to come to your school.” I should have never given the price out in front of 800 people, even though I was sort of married to it. But they clapped again. It was over. And we did an 8-city tour to Rutgers and Fisk and NYU... And it was sort of the first time that I was able to sort of understand that writing is, for me, is more than pen to paper. It has to be writing with sort of the goal of being able to share your words with the world in some profound way, and you now have the capacity to do it. So you don’t have to just write and it ends up in a drawer or under a mattress. You’re going to share your works with the world, and the degree to which you do that is only limited by your vision and your dreams. So you start -- we started with me talking about titles, and of course we ended in another place, in terms of this first experience where I knew I wanted to be a writer and live this writerly life, in all of its different aspects and capacities. But the title for that play was really not that good. I had borrowed it from a Spike Lee movie called She’s Gotta Have It, and so I said, Self-Discovery 101, You Gotta Have It. It seemed pretty cool. I guess the kids liked it. But from that point forward, my titles got progressively better, and so the next couple of titles...there was a title called Ebony Images, another play that I wrote, which was still okay, probably bad. But titles became very important to me. I really wanted titles that A reflected the subject matter of the book, but B, that sort of had a little bit of edgy and coolness to it, and so the titles got a little bit better over the years. I remember a really good friend of mine, my best friend, who was an actor in that first play. He’s always ribbing me about my titles. He’s like, Dude, you don’t know how to come up with titles. That used to be a really sore spot for me. We used to argue about that. And I think, you know, now he’s like a huge fan of my titles. So I think he really inspired me to sort of work on those titles. And so, when you think about - there was a play -- After Ebony Images, there was a play called 8 Minutes Till 9, which was bad, like what does that mean? The play was about a Muslim and a Christian who were twin brothers, and who were trying to figure out how to live in the same space when they had these sort of different, distinctly different, views on religion and the world and spirituality, and their mother. And so their mother -- And they hadn’t spoken in a while -- and their mother was in the hospital on her deathbed, and she died at 8 minutes till 9. Not a very good title. And then my first book of poems, Just Us: Poems and Counterpoems. What are counterpoems? I have no idea. And I think probably -- And then Tough Love: The Life and Death of Tupac Shakur. That’s kind of cliché. I think probably the transition into like really coming up with a title that was concise and represented the book and still had an edginess was the book Crush, and that was 10 years, 10-15 years into my writing. But I think that sort of when I hit my stride, if I can say that, Crush: Love Poems for Teenagers, I felt like it was really simple, it represented what the book was about. It had sort of an edginess to it. Just the word “crush” in and of itself has some energy. And from there I felt like it was on, with the titles. NJ: I am curious as you were just talking about that play, the 10 minutes to 9? KA: 8 Minutes Till 9. Kwame Alexander Edited Transcript – October 21, 2015 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 4 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections NJ: 8 Minutes Till 9, thank you. It really impressed me -KA: Yes, it’s just, it’s a horrible title. KA: Yes, 25 minutes past 11. NJ: Yes. And (The) Crossover, and twins, mother on a deathbed... Do you find you come back? And what do you come back to in different maybe iterations? KA: Wow. So that’s great, because we’re talking about the books talking to each other. And here’s this play that I wrote that has this direct link to this novel that I wrote, which was 20 years later. And so the thing I didn’t tell you about 8 Minutes Till 9 is that -- this was my third sort of, my third attempt at producing theater, okay. So after that first play had just wild success, as a 17 year-old, of course, I can do this. I can do this now. I will become a theater impresario. And so part of this whole idea of finding your rhythm and saying yes is that there are going to be failures. And I think that, the thing is, you got to be willing to deal with the failures. Like you’ve got to be willing to let those happen, embrace them, and learn from them. And that way you’re able to sort of find what’s possible. And so with 8 Minutes Till 9, it was my third attempt, I felt like I was in a rhythm, and it was now time for me to actually go to Broadway, like literally. NJ: Oh my gosh. KA: And so I found a theater in my home town, in Norfolk, Virginia. It’s called the Norfolk Center Theater, I believe, and I had 800 students in the first play, because the students had been registered for the conference from all around the country, so they were -- that was my audience. I didn’t have to market, just had to show up and do my piece. Well now I had to market to the Norfolk Center Theater, and I remember getting my scholarship money from school, I was now a junior, and I had leftover money. And I decided I’m going to use this money to produce my play. The theater sat 2,000 people. I’m going to do this. Everybody’s going to love this play. And there were 5 people in the audience. And I remember feeling like, or feeling a number of things. Two of the people were my parents. And I remember feeling like it was the end of the world, like it’s a wrap. I mean, just thinking about it right now makes me just want to, wow, it was devastating, because I had done everything I thought that I knew, everything that I thought I had to do in order to bring people out. And certainly a theater with 2,000 people in there and there are 5 people in the audience, there’s no way to sort of think positively about that, especially as a 19 year old, who thinks he wants to be a writer/director/producer. And so I was devastated. ST: So as part of the consequence of having the tremendous confidence and self-assuredness, when it doesn’t happen, it sounds like there’s some extremes going on. I mean, that’s a challenging way to move through the world I imagine. KA: Well again, it’s no way around that. You can’t, I don’t care how much confidence you have, you can’t rationalize there being 5 people in a theater of 2,000, in front of the people you care the most about, and the actors who you promised that this is going to be. And it was just, like you really just felt like you wanted to be in your mother’s arms. You wanted to just be away from the world. And it was Kwame Alexander Edited Transcript – October 21, 2015 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 5 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections the lowest -- it’s one of the lowest points in my writing career. And then the other thing happened, because you can’t take away confidence, 19 years of confidence being instilled in you by your parents and being reinforced daily. That doesn’t just end because you’re devastated. It takes a hit. It doesn’t go down though. And so we did the play. We did the entire play. And it was the hardest thing I’ve ever done. Of course I’m only 19, so how many hard things have I done? But when you start looking at the future, in terms of my writing career, it definitely laid a foundation for how I would move through the world, how I would deal with the nos, because that was the biggest no. It’s probably one of the top three biggest nos I’ve ever faced in terms of the rejection that I felt. But we did the play. We did the play. I don’t know how that 2 ½ hours -- I don’t remember how I made it through that 2 ½ hours, but it’s not, you know, we did. And when it was over and I got home, yes, I felt a whole lot better because I was out of that space, and I was able to look back on it, and I knew that I would never be in that position again. I would never be in that position again. I mean, I gave up my scholarship money for this, to produce this. I didn’t, obviously, I didn’t market it and promote it well. And so, yes, yes, yes. And so, to go back to your question and the idea when we look at The Crossover and we have similar sort of themes, in terms of twins, rivalry, parent, parental illness. I kind of I guess when I think back on it, I guess I feel like I never -- that story never got told. And so maybe I needed to be able to close that chapter in some way, and this was sort of a coming full circle. I don’t know, I’m speculating, but I think our subconscious acts in ways that we don’t necessarily know. So when you bring it up, maybe that had something to do with it. I needed to have some closure, because I always felt like it was a great idea. So I needed to circle back and deal with some of that. But oh, I get chills when I think about that theater. It was the hardest thing. But again I mean, we can’t have the yeses without the nos. You can’t have the mountains without the valleys. You just you can’t. The world doesn’t work like that. So, yes, 8 Minutes Till 9. NJ: Music. It’s everywhere, in your work. KA: Yes, the music. I told my parents that I don’t remember music being in our house. I don’t remember you all listening to music. You know, I remember gospel music because my father was a Baptist minister, and so I remember church, and I remember my father didn’t listen to secular music. So he never, I don’t have that recollection of him listening to music outside of church. I remember him trying to sing in the pulpit and sounding horrible. I remember that. I remember my mother humming songs and singing songs around the house, If you want to be happy for the rest of your life... I remember her singing, How much is the doggy in the window? I remember her singing songs like that around the house. I remember that a lot. So I remember those two things. And I remember, certainly, my sisters and I loving Michael Jackson and sort of going through our phases. And then I remember falling asleep at night listening to the oldies but goodies, every night. I had a little alarm clock radio, and so I’d fall asleep, Breaking up is hard to do. Now I know, I know that it’s true. Don’t say that this is the end. Instead of breaking up I wish that we were making up again. I beg... So I used to listen to these songs. Yes, I guess there was music in my house. There was a lot of music. I used to listen to those songs every night, loved the stories, loved the stories. Kwame Alexander Edited Transcript – October 21, 2015 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 6 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections But you know, the music in the books, I think, comes from a couple different places. Obviously it comes from that. But it comes from, I love writing while listening to music. The writing, it centers, it calms me, it inspires me, so I love listening to music, especially instrumental jazz music. The music has to be instrumental. I can’t have words when I’m writing. So I think the biggest thing in terms of why the music is so much a part of my life now, and therefore a part of my writing life, I was a sophomore in college and I’d come home, and again, the only music I ever heard my father embrace was gospel music, and I came home -- and this is a man who didn’t, he never said I loved you. I didn’t hear that. Like you knew he did, but you didn’t ever hear it. He wasn’t very emotive. But he was emotive when he fussed. But you didn’t really get the warm and fuzzy, Oh come here, son, give me a hug. That never happened, ever! So I remember coming home sophomore year and being in our attic. My grandmother used to say that I was a meddler. “Why is that boy always meddling in my stuff?” He’s in my closets and then, “What are you, Ed, come down!” She used to call me by my first name, Edward. “Edward, come downstairs and stop meddling up there.” I loved going in drawers and finding things and being under beds, and there was always little things that you could find, and it was just so cool to me to discover all these wonderful things that you knew had stories, had these sort of backgrounds, these histories...medals in your grandfather’s drawer, and fur coats, oh and fur hats. Oh, my favorite thing was papers, anything that was paper, because papers had things written on them. And whatever was written on them, you knew was going to be something that you didn’t know before. And so you got this sort of peek into these people’s lives who were your family. My grandmother used to say, “Why is he meddling?” And this is both of my grandmothers. My mother’s mother and my father’s mother, I did the same thing. My mother’s mother had an attic where her mother had lived, so it was a whole apartment up there. Oh my goodness! I found watches, encyclopedias, you know, can I say bras? I mean, I found everything, and it was all so exciting! And so, I come home sophomore year and I do what I always do. I’m in our attic, because growing up I’d never discovered everything that was in the attic, so it was always cool to go up there. So maybe I was up there looking for something from my high school days. Everything was in boxes. And I find two crates of records, and I started looking at the records, and the records are like Ella Fitzgerald, Live in Berlin; Duke Ellington; Ornette Coleman; Miles Davis, Sketches of Spain. And I’m like what is this? And I look at the top of each record, and in stencil, which is what these guys in the Air Force used to use to identify their records, it said, Property of The Big Al. And I’m like, That’s my dad. My dad’s nickname in the Air Force was The Big Al. My dad has a record, “I’ve Got You Under My Skin.” What is my dad doing with Billie Holiday and Bessie Smith? What is he doing with these? And then it hit me, My dad was a huge jazz fan. Anybody who loves jazz has to be okay. That’s when I sort of fell in love with my dad. That was the moment. I took those records back to college. I took them all back to college, bought a record player, and began to just fall in love with jazz music. And it has informed and influenced my writing ever since. And I guess in some way, it’s sort of me, reestablishing or reconnecting with my dad in a really profound way. ST: I don’t know if you could hear your dad while you were giving your Newberry speech, because you were up there, but -KA: I’ve been told. Kwame Alexander Edited Transcript – October 21, 2015 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 7 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ST: Oh you have. I loved it! It was -KA: It was church. ST: It was church, and it was -- it was church. He was so loving and so supportive and exhilarating about what was happening. KA: Yes, I think for them, for my mom and dad, the whole, you know, awards, the Newberry Medal in particular, it was -- it was validating for them in some way. Because when I got the call on February 2, at 7:16 a.m., I called him. He was the first person I called. And his response was, “We did it.” Which I was like, Dude, we didn’t do anything. But of course we did. Like I wouldn’t have been getting that call had he not done all that stuff that they did. And my father and I -- again, he wasn’t very emotive, so we didn’t -- We talked every couple months. We had conversations every now and then. It was cool. And as he’d gotten older, we talked a little bit more. But beginning February 2, we talked an hour a day, which is -- I mean, there are some days where I just, I can’t, I can’t do it tonight, Dad. I’ll have to call you tomorrow. But we talked an hour a day. And I think, what better way, what is more important for a parent than to see their child living a life that they have always hoped that they would be able to live. Maybe they didn’t articulate the specific, but that everything we put into you, we see it coming out and we’re very -- we feel good. We’ve done something. And you know, me fighting or me fussing because I have to read Roll of Thunder, Hear My Cry, and him not being able to understand. Why are you fussing? And me tearing... So there was this phase in my life where we lived in Brooklyn, and we lived in this awesome row house on President Street, between New York and Brooklyn Avenue. It was owned by this older woman who had first editions of quite a few books, Alexander Dumas. She had everything. And she left the books, and there were built-in shelves in every room. So I had a room with built-in shelves everywhere, and I hated it. Because I knew I was going to have to read these freakin’ books. And he made me read them. And so, when he traveled, I would rebel. This is not the kind of thing to share when you’re talking with librarians and English professors. It’s a part of my life. I would take books off the shelves and start tearing pages out. That was my way to rebel. I would only do it when he left town. I wasn’t crazy enough to do it when he was there. To come from that place -ST: And would you get rid of the pages, then, or would they -KA: I don’t remember. I’d tear a page out. I’d tear a page out and then throw the book. My mother would come in. We won’t say what she did, but I had to stop. That was sort of my way. So to come from that place to now be here, I think they’re just very thankful, and my mother said -- I remember my mother saying to my father, “Where did he come from? Where did this guy come from?” So I think they’re just very proud. I know they’re very proud. I’m really happy to have -- I feel like it’s good. It’s sort of my way of saying thank you for all the stuff I put them through as it related to literature. But they never, they never stopped. They never stopped, I mean, “We don’t care. If you don’t want to read, too bad you’re going to do it.” That thing never stopped. And so yes, he’s right, we did do it. Kwame Alexander Edited Transcript – October 21, 2015 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 8 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections NJ: Do you think work, know when something’s going to end up being a picture book or a novel or a collection of poems? Is that conscious? Does it happen organically? KA: Yes. It’s a good question. I have not always, I haven’t been -- Quite a few of my writer friends are very sort of, and I say this in the most respectful way, in the clouds. They’re inspired, and the muse comes, and that’s all good. And to a certain degree, yes, I have muses. But I am also very methodical about my approach to writing books. I’m going to sit down and I’m going to write a play tonight. That’s always been my mindset. I’m going to sit down, I’m going to write a picture book. This morning I was working on a picture book, looking out on this beautiful water and listening to the trains, and I’m going to write a picture book. So it’s very, it’s very planned. I mean, it’s very intentional. I know what genre it’s going to be. I’ve thought about it over and over in my head because there are -- before I can actually sit down to write, I have to know what genre. There’s not going to be any I don’t know, maybe this is something else. No, it is what it’s going to be. I have to know the title. I have to know that from the beginning. And I have to know the whole -- and I have to know the entire story. I have to know the beginning and the end. I don’t have to know the middle. But I have to know those three things. And so it becomes very -- it becomes less, let the muse sort of inspire me, let me find out what this is, and more of, alright, muse, you ready to do this? Let’s make it happen. This is what’s about to go down. NJ: Do you think the muse is percolating even though you’re not aware of it? KA: Yes. NJ: So by the time -KA: Yes, the muse is definitely -- yes. By the time I actually write, I’ve already started writing, and the muse has been working with me and inspiring me. So all that happens up there while I’m presenting, while I’m traveling around, walking my daughter to school, the muse is working. When I sit down to write, I’m taking all of that that I’ve gathered and culled together over the weeks, months, or years. It’s interesting because when I present to students or when I’m giving a keynote, it’s weird because two things are happening up there. Number one, I am present in the moment, which is why I try to make sure that I connect with students and get names. And it’s not just so that the students can feel connected. It’s so I can feel connected too. Because there’s another thing going on. I’m also actively at this simultaneously, I’m involved in this whole other process, and that process is -- I’m not even sure if this is something I should say. That’s the thing about this, in this age of Twitter, stuff ends up everywhere. ST: Nancy and I do not know how to Twitter. NJ: We don’t tweet. We do not tweet, so. KA: I’m being facetious. I’m being facetious. ST: I’m not. Kwame Alexander Edited Transcript – October 21, 2015 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 9 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections KA: My mind, my mind is in the moment and I’m trying to connect with you, but I’m also thinking about what I’m going to be doing over here. And over here could be, I heard four kids up there laughing and being rambunctious. Okay, at some point during this presentation, Kwame, you need to make your way up there, and you need to do that poem that’s on page 46 in Crush, because that poem is going to resonate with that boy, because you saw the way... So I’m having this whole other conversation as I’m connecting with this student over here. And I don’t know if that’s multitasking or literary schizophrenia, or whatever it is, but I have stopped trying to understand it and just do it. I don’t know, I don’t know how it happens, but I just do it. NJ: I think I mentioned to you at Singapore American School that that’s what I hope I get better at as a teacher. I mean, watching you yesterday, watching you at the Singapore American School, you are so present for the learners, the kids, whoever’s there, even the grownups, that we’re sure you’re -- It’s like when I go to a really good church service, it’s like, Oh, that sermon was for me. KA: Right. NJ: And that’s what I hope I can learn to do as a teacher so that when I leave they go, Oh yes, that lesson was for me. I needed that one. And you don’t even seem to think about it. I think it’s kind of who you are. KA: Yes. NJ: You’re saying, No, I’m not a teacher. You are a teacher at the core. KA: Well, yes, thank you. I tried teaching, I tried teaching. NJ: Well you’re still doing it. You just don’t do it with a certificate. KA: Yes, right. NJ: You don’t have a teaching certificate. You’re still teaching. KA: Right, right. NJ: I saw you with your daughter. KA: Right. NJ: I mean, you’re still teaching. KA: Yes. NJ: And in ways that sometimes we can’t get away with in a classroom. Cool, we’re lucky to have that happen. KA: Right. I remember Scott Riley, one of the teachers in Singapore. At the Singapore American School, he told me, it was like, “The kids are the curriculum.” And so, if you’re teaching the curriculum, you got Kwame Alexander Edited Transcript – October 21, 2015 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 10 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections to teach to the kids. And we forget that sometimes. And I think that one of the beauties of presenting with students, like the 5th graders at Western Washington, is that you get to -- it’s sort of like jazz. When you have a jam session, you have to be present in order to riff off of your bandmates. In order to follow along, in order to get in the groove, and you don’t know the kind of magic that’s going to come out of that, but you got to be willing to do that and discover it. And I think each time I go into a class or into an auditorium or what have you, I want -- it’s a jam session for me. We’re all involved, and I may have some ideas about what I’m going to do, and I’m also open to wherever this is going to take us, because there may be some teachable moments here. There may be some things that I’ll discover about myself. There may be some things that some student will discover about her or himself. And I think that’s really magical. But you got to be willing to have five people in the theater to do that, and that is not easy. ST: Thanks. KA: Thank you. NJ: You got two people in the theater. NJ: It’s easier. -KA: Yes. It’s good to be able to talk about it. A lot of this stuff I haven’t shared in a while, just remember. It’s good to remember that. ST: Yes. KA: Yes. ST: We have a few more months until the next announcement in January. I hope it carries, I hope it flows over. You’ve talked about this year as this platform that you’re honored to be on and to reach out, and I don’t see it ending, to be perfectly honest. NJ: I think you’re booked for the next two years anyway, right? KA: Yes. NJ: I think you’ve found the theater. I mean, it is really not gone. KA: Right. I think I was able to sort of merit all those things, right? NJ: This is your theater. That one was temporary. It was a placeholder. KA: Right. NJ: It’s a placeholder theater. KA: Yes. Kwame Alexander Edited Transcript – October 21, 2015 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 11 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections NJ: Right? I mean, this gig is not Broadway, but for you, you’re on a different Broadway. ST: Well it’s the trifecta that you were talking about of who you are, what you’re writing about, and the connection with the audience, that initial rush that you had from that first place. NJ: Yes. KA: Right. NJ: Sharing your words with the world. ST: And then here you are now -KA: Oh, you’re right. ST: -- in that same experience. It’s like it’s that whole spiral, cyclical thing going. And it’s like, wow, that does make a lot of sense. KA: You’re right. That’s exactly what it is. NJ: And so it’s no wonder it’s like it feels like you’ve come home when you do that. It feels right because it is right for you. KA: Right, right. NJ: Not for all of us -KA: Right. NJ: -- but it’s right for you. KA: Yes, yes. NJ: And that’s why the other people who have a muse that is different, that’s right for them. KA: Right, exactly, exactly. NJ: And that’s right for them. This is you, and to try to find that, we don’t always find it at 18 or 19. We’re looking. KA: Right. NJ: We’re meddling. KA: Right, right. NJ: Right? Yes. So you kind of hope that there is that place. And it’s just lovely when you know. I mean when you know it, it’s like, I am so lucky. Kwame Alexander Edited Transcript – October 21, 2015 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 12 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections KA: Right, exactly. I was telling Sylvia, I wake up every morning, I just laugh. It’s like, “No way, really?” NJ: Really, seriously, right? Hey, Dad, I am going to talk to you for an hour because really? KA: Right. ST: Well, that’s a good place to end. NJ: But you wouldn’t have known that when you had five people in your audience. ST: But you knew it when you had that previous feeling. It was the feeling to repeat. NJ: Yes, yes. Thank you. Kwame Alexander Edited Transcript – October 21, 2015 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 13 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections
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Title: Bill and Audrey Nelson interview--May 7, 2007
Date: 2007-05-07
Description: Well-known fly fisherman and guide, one of the "fathers" of the Federation of Fly Fishers.
Digital Collection: Fly Fishing Oral Histories
Type of resource: text
Object custodian: Special Collections
Related Collection: Fly Fishing Oral History Program
Local Identifier: FFOH_NelsonBill_Audrey_20070507
Text preview (might not show all results): Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections Fly Fishing Oral History Program Audrey Nelson ATTENTION: © Copyright Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. "Fai
Show moreWestern Washington University Libraries Special Collections Fly Fishing Oral History Program Audrey Nelson ATTENTION: © Copyright Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. "Fair use" criteria of Section 107 of the Copyright Act of 1976 must be followed. The following materials can be used for educational and other noncommercial purposes without the written permission of Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. These materials are not to be used for resale or commercial purposes without written authorization from Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. All materials cited must be attributed to Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. This interview was conducted with Bill and Audrey Nelson on May 7, 2007, at their home, in Eugene, Oregon. The interviewer was Tamara Belts. TB: Today is Monday, May 7th, 2007 and I am here with Bill Nelson, and his wife Audrey. We’re going to do an oral history. He did just sign the Informed Consent Agreement. Our first question is: How did you get started fly fishing? BN: My father was a fisherman and he dallied with the fly fishing system. When I got into high school, one of the shop teachers was a fly fisherman and helped me build a vice, that’s when I started tying flies. Then as time went on, my father would take me up and drop me off on a stream on his way to work, and then picked me back up again after work in the evening as I came down the river. TB: Now which river are you talking about? BN: Stillaguamish, and also, the Skykomish, because it was close and had good fish. TB: Pilchuck? BN: Yes, I fished the Pilchuck once in a while and the Snohomish. There were fish in the Snohomish that you could take on a fly. But that’s about it. I didn’t journey to a lot of places when I was still a youngster. Fishing was good in those days. TB: Now what was that shop teacher’s name? BN: His last name was Jones, first name Casey -- Casey Jones. TB: Where did your father work? BN: He had his own business for a while; he was in the tire business, Nelson Tire and Recapping. TB: So he traveled? That’s why he could drop you off at the rivers and you would fish down? BN: Well, no, he’d just drive up there, drop me off and then go back to go to work, and when he was through work, he’d come up and pick me up. Usually, on those forays we’d be fairly close to town anyway, on one of the rivers. Pigeon Creek was another one, Rock Creek; there are others that I just can’t recall all at once. We would pick out a stream and a time and place for him to pick me up. TB: So what was it about fly fishing that attracted you? 1 Bill and Audrey Nelson Edited Transcript – May 7, 2007 Fly Fishing Collection ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED BN: Well, mostly to be able to do it. We did a lot of things that were near to where my folks lived on Puget Sound, right on the beach practically. Just out of the Indian Reservation, they were down on the beach. It’s called Tulare Beach and I’d go out and fish in the salt chuck, trying to catch fish. I was tying flies when the war got going and I was still too young to enlist in the service. I sold quite a few flies to Sears, the local Sears store, and they liked them. I got, I think it was twenty cents each for those flies that I tied. Then they sold them, I forget what they sold them for and I didn’t want to look. We had a zoo there and I would go up to the zoo when I was short of feathers of some kind. I’d take some peanuts with me and I could get a peacock to come over, show it to him, and then you’d throw it just a little ways [behind] him and he’d turn around and you could get a [tail] feather. The guy that was up there running that thing decided that he was going to save some skins for me if one of their exotic birds died. Then I’d run around and see who was raising chickens and I’d get some chicken feathers. There was a feather pillow in the house, it was kind of worn out, and the feathers would come out of it and I’d use every one of them. So I just monkey-ed around mostly. But I did catch fish on the fly when I was in high school. Fresh water fishing mostly, but my parents lived on Puget Sound, which is salt water fishing. I’d walk around on the beach and cast for cutthroat or whatever, there’s a lot of things you can catch out there on a fly. Bottom fish, as we called them, mostly cod, and things like that. They would come up and grab it, sometimes, so it was fun to do. Phone rings BN: I went into the Navy right out of high school. TB: Did you fly fish when you were in the Navy? BN: Whenever I had a chance, yes. When I was kind of through with schooling and the war was over, actually, I was at Clearfield, Utah. (I could tell you a crazy story, but I better not). Anyway, we fished on several of the streams down there in Utah, and they were fun. I’ve got some pictures of that someplace. Pretty soon we had about three or four guys that would go with us; I mean that all of us would go together. One of my shipmates was a native of Salt Lake City, which is just south of Clearfield. We had a lot of fun doing things, but we’d also fish a lot. It was like still being in school, you got Saturday and Sunday off. And that’s what we’d do, whenever we got a chance, we’d go fishing when we weren’t working. They have a funny schedule when the war’s over and the Navy’s doing this and that. I was sent off to find a filter for the pool so we could kind of redo the pool. We had a swimming pool there at Clearfield, and I’d use that as an excuse to go hunting for that filter and we’d fish along the way. It was fun to do that; we’d have a jeep, the Navy jeep and go down to Salt Lake City, and try to find out what we could do there. On the way, if we could do something good, well, we’d do it, and get the filter and go back and install it, but on the way we would probably get a few casts in. That was fun. I had a bamboo rod (glass wasn’t really used in those days). I still may have part of those bamboo rods that were made in the years past. You put them in kind of a case and try and save them, and pretty soon you loose track of where they are. But I still have a couple of fishing rods and stuff like that. TB: So you got out of the Navy and then you came back to Everett? BN: Yes, I came back to Everett then. I enrolled right away at Washington State College. It’s called Washington State University now, and that’s where I met Audrey. TB: So you went to school, and what did you study to be? 2 Bill and Audrey Nelson Edited Transcript – May 7, 2007 Fly Fishing Collection ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED BN: I was studying things like math. I was thinking of becoming an engineer and I kind of switched and got out with a business education. I felt that it would be great to be an engineer, but the way things worked out was better. TB: So then you after you graduated from college, what did you do? Or how did you get back to Everett? BN: I was still in Everett in the summer time. I went to work at U.S. Rubber Company. That was kind of a strange thing too. I didn’t have a real, full education in business, but had some engineering background in it. I didn’t really graduate, but that was the four years counting the credit I got for the things that I had completed at Montana School of Mines. AN: Bill was stationed at Montana School of Mines (Butte, Montana) where he earned some college credits. He later transferred to Clearfield, Utah. BN: In the V-5 program which is a Naval Aviators training thing. They gave me full credit. They taught us engineering and things of this nature. Also we had Naval Organization, Naval Org they called it, they didn’t give you any college credit for it but it was supposed to be done before you were able to continue with the program. We would have football, baseball, and basketball teams from Montana School of Mines and that was still in the Navy. As soon as I got back, I registered at Washington State University. I had credits that I could use there and that was helpful. I knew a lot of the people at Washington State, and we re-established old friendships and went fly fishing there. TB: So where did you go fly fishing at Pullman? BN: The Grande Ronde. We didn’t really know what we had at that time. We’d go there and go fishing and try to catch a trout. I wasn’t there in the real summer time. The late summer and fall steelhead fishing is just outrageous, it’s so good. We married and settled in the Seattle area. The district manager for U.S. Rubber Company in Seattle came in and grabbed me, says, “We have a desk for you over in the U.S. Rubber Company,” (because my father had been in the tire business). That’s the way I started with the U.S. Rubber Company. It was my first job after leaving WSU. I was an order-clerk (I think is what you would call me). Then I got to be a salesman on the road, and calling on all of the U.S. Rubber Companies’ accounts, in various areas. AN: When you worked for U.S. Rubber, you were only in Seattle a short time (mid-1949-1950). Then he was transferred to Portland first (1950-1953), then Grants Pass (1953-1955), and finally Eugene (19551957). You did a lot of fishing in Oregon. BN: The Sandy River and the Willamette. We’d go down and fish there too, just below the falls. AN: He’d bring home all kinds of big fish. There was a little grocery store across the street that had a freezer, and they would put them in their freezer, and keep them for us and for themselves. You did a lot of fishing there; we were there for two years, in the Portland area. BN: It wasn’t all totally fly fishing there below the falls, but another good thing we’d catch was Jack Salmon, and catch them on the fly better than a spooner could or anybody else. We’d fish with a fly beneath the falls there for quite a long time. Then when it was tough, we’d have a casting rod and pitch it somewhere out there and try to catch some fish there. It could be wonderful fishing there and they’d let us go through the mill and down to the rocks right there at the bottom part of the falls, so I got hooked on that too. AN: You ought to tell them about when you were in Grant’s Pass and Eugene, how you had this little boat on top of [your] vehicle. He just went everywhere – down to the coast and over to Klamath Falls. TB: How did you get involved in the Evergreen Fly Fishing Club? 3 Bill and Audrey Nelson Edited Transcript – May 7, 2007 Fly Fishing Collection ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED BN: In 1958 I accepted a job with Armstrong Rubber Company and moved to Lynnwood, Washington (1958-1962). One of my best friends, Lew Bell, was president of the Evergreen Fly Fishing Club and I knew a lot of guys that were in the club because I was raised in Everett. I was living in Lynnwood but I would drive down to the meetings in Everett. There were a lot of nice guys in there. TB: How did you come to know Lew Bell? BN: I went fishing with him a lot and things like that. We just became dear friends; he’s my closest friend ever. We did other things besides fishing; we did potlucks for the club and stuff like that. But that’s a close-knit club; everybody is familiar with everybody else. It was a small enough group you got to know everybody in the club. They’d switch around to have lunch in various places. We’d go to lunch on Fridays, I think it was. Anyway, they’d have a weekly luncheon at the Elk’s Club or someplace else. (My father used to have the tire business right across from the Elk’s Club in Everett). It’s hard to recall those things in sequence. I wish I could do better for you. TB: You’re doing great. So how did you first start talking about forming the Federation of Fly Fishing? BN: We were on the Grande Ronde River, Lew Bell, Dick Denman, Dick Padovan and Dub Price and quite a group went there, it was kind of an exclusive group. At that time that was the best steelhead fishing in the world. We tried to get days off together, so we would all have the same week off, or two weeks off. Rick Miller would go down and fish with us in the Grande Ronde too. And we just started talking about it. We actually started talking about it when I was still up in Lynnwood working for Armstrong Rubber Company. We would have coffee at the Alpine Café (Everett, WA) and there would be about six or eight of us around this table and we’d just start talking about it. We all got together there at least once a week and maybe a couple days in a row, you know if I was around for a little while. We had discussions there when we were having coffee. But most of the planning and the ideas were thrown together up on the Grande Ronde when we were fishing. When we got back, everything was pretty much in our minds. We didn’t get it to a point where we got the Federation of Fly Fishermen through in thought but we all knew exactly, how it would go and where it would go. Then we bought the business in Eugene (1962) and moved here. TB: What business did you buy? BN: Eugene Tire Patch Company. The guy just said, “Well, you’re the only guy I’m going to sell it to and I’m going to make you a good deal. We’ll sell your home up in Lynnwood.” He took the job of selling the house we had in Lynnwood along with letting me buy his business. Then he spent about a month or two following me around. He worked with me for a month anyway. I got used to driving this panel [truck], and then I put some racks on the top. I had a light aluminum boat and I could put it up there on top. Everybody got a kick out of that and so half of my accounts became fisherman. That was fun. When I got down here to Eugene I found out they didn’t even have a fly-fishing club, and I thought, well, we must do something about this, we’re going to get a fly club, so I put an ad in the paper to find guys that would be interested, and we had six guys, I think it was, to begin with, set for the first meeting of people. AN: Oh, you had more than that, you had about a dozen the first night, I think you had about ten or twelve guys. 4 Bill and Audrey Nelson Edited Transcript – May 7, 2007 Fly Fishing Collection ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED BN: Yes, okay. Anyway, we formed the McKenzie Fly Fishers. TB: Now, let’s back up a minute, when you guys were talking on the Grande Ronde, what were the things that you thought needed to happen? Why were you interested in forming the federation? BN: Well, we worried about people doing things. We wanted to preserve as much of the water like the Grande Ronde and several other rivers, if we could possibly do it. Then we got to be friendly with people from various other places. I think I took two or three guys from the East Coast fishing here and there and that was when I was still up in Lynnwood. Then my travels around Washington, Oregon, Northern California, and Western Idaho, to sell patches to fix tires and tubes; while I was doing that, I met a whole bunch of different guys that were interested in fly fishing, so I thought, what the heck! We formed a club here and I laid it on them, and they went ahead with it. It was quite an affair really, by the time we got through starting that thing. People came from a long ways away and some of them were well known in those days and it kind of turned all of us on to what we wanted to do, and that was to help preserve fly fishing as a sport. We felt that we were more concerned about the fish than anyone else was, as far as preserving a run of fish in this river or that river. Anyway the whole thing was just a great experience for everybody involved, really. Some of them aren’t with us anymore, but you sure think of them with great respect. Lew Bell was my closest friend, he was an attorney in Everett, and actually, he was asked to serve in the U.S. Senate! He said, “No, I just don’t want to get mixed up with that.” TB: The other thing is why did you feel that there needed to be something beyond Trout Unlimited? I read where Trout Unlimited had formed in the Fifties, and it was geared towards preservation of fishing. BN: Oh, yes, and Martin Bovey who was the president of Trout Unlimited, came to our first meeting in Eugene when we were going to build a Federation of Fly Fishing. TB: So, the Trout Unlimited wasn’t going far enough? BN: No, it was just a different system. End of Side One, Tape One BN: Trout Unlimited was a good organization, don’t get me wrong. Martin Bovey asked for a list of the folks that were going to be in the Federation and then he, in turn, gave one of our members a list of the fellows that he thought would be very interested in the Federation and in the fly fishing system. There was also fly fishing clubs on the East Coast that he gave us information about. Martin Bovey was really good; he gave us a lot of information. We even had guys like Lee Wulff. TB: Now how did you get the idea to ask him? AN: He was a famous guy. Bill wrote to a lot of people that were prominent in that business or that liked to fly fish like… TB: Bing Crosby? AN: … yes like Bing Crosby, and Bill received a really nice letter that we can’t find. TB: I’ve seen a copy of that. AN: I think somebody published it at some time, but I can’t find it, but it was a nice letter of regret, but he had a lot of positives too. 5 Bill and Audrey Nelson Edited Transcript – May 7, 2007 Fly Fishing Collection ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED BN: Oh and we flew to Jackson Hole. One of the guys had an airplane, Bill Hilton, who was another close friend, and I’d fish with him a lot. We took four guys all together, including Bill, and went to an outdoor writer’s convention in Jackson Hole. We went around and met a lot of the guys and we got a lot of support out of just that meeting of the outdoors writers. That was one routine we went through, and it worked out very well. Also, we had folks that didn’t really want to belong to something, but yet they thought that our idea as far as conservation and everything like that was concerned was good and they came along and went to it. It wasn’t an easy program having the first conclave. But everybody really pitched in and did the best they could. TB: So you were a new club, that had just been formed, and right away you were trying to have this big conclave, so how did that go over with your club? And did everybody stay with you? BN: Oh, no, in the beginning there were guys that just didn’t think it would go, and they even quit the club, so to speak. But then in the interim period the guys that stayed and talked about it, the next thing you knew we had a run of people that wanted to be in the club and to help with this conclave we were going to put on to form a federation. The word conclave came from me in the fact that when I was going to Washington State, the fraternity went down to Las Vegas. The University of Nevada was going to have a new charter down there, so we went down there and we kind of got everybody else that we could to go to this thing and it worked out really well. It was a conclave they put on there, and that’s where I got the word conclave. TB: The conclave was in 1965. BN: The first one. TB: And I think you had just formed the club in 1964, didn’t you? BN: That’s correct. AN: Yes. TB: So it’s like the first thing your club did was to have this national conclave the next year! AN: It scared the guys. But they were all young and enthusiastic and ambitious, and full of it -- they had confidence. BN: We had the cream of the crop. We had the cream of the crop of everything. AN: The ones that dropped out though, a lot of them came back in, too. BN: Yes, that’s right, after we did the work. But it was a good club too – it was just outstanding as far as I was concerned. But the Evergreen Club is still part of it too, they helped so much. AN: And his friend Lew, who was an attorney; he helped do so much of the work, in that line. He was from Everett and he was a wonderful speaker, too. BN: I think I’ve got a little tape on that someplace, haven’t I? AN: Well, you’ve got all the beginning. TB: Oh, all of those speakers are on tape? BN: Yes, some of them are. 6 Bill and Audrey Nelson Edited Transcript – May 7, 2007 Fly Fishing Collection ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED AN: I don’t know all of them, but some of them are on that Never Name the River? TB: Oh, sure, that’s where the footage came from. BN: Have you seen that? TB: I did; that was invaluable. Tell me a little more about you then, I know you are well known for being a salt-water fly fisherman; you were a guide up in B.C., right? BN: Yes. TB: How did you get into that? BN: Well, I belonged to the McKenzie River Guides Association here, and some of us would go up to B.C. on our vacations to a place called April Point. We were friends with a couple – Marsh and Stephanie Webster – and we shared a cabin at April Point for quite a few years. We’d each take our own boat and have a great time. It was a fantastic setting. We were fly fishing on salt water. Sometimes we would use up about everything. TB: Now that was kind of a new thing, wasn’t it? BN: I think so, yes. But we’d wade along the inside edge of the kelp, and cast ahead of us, and try and catch fish that way, and we did! It was amazing how many fish are inside the kelp and nobody can go in there and troll for them. We’d fish the mouths of the rivers in the fall, and just fly fish it, and it was just absolutely outstanding. I met a guy, his name was Bob Hurst, and he was with the Canada Fisheries, in the area there at Parksville. That’s south of where we were on Quadra Island. We got to be good friends. Then we started trying to use flies and by golly we sure did use them, and they worked out pretty good. Two or three fly fishermen in the fisheries and then there were guys that were just fly-tiers and they started tying salt water flies. Short Break TB: Now which fly is this? BN: I guess you’d call that The Mrs. Nelson. But this is a better example that kind of does the work, there, that’s a herring. Then they come out in different sizes. TB: Now how did you happen to name this Mrs. Nelson? How’s it like to have a fly named after you? AN: It’s great, it has a great story. BN: I was fishing with a guy from South Africa, William Vander Byl, who came to the lodge, and he was kind of excited about casting for salmon in the salt chuck. We took him down to the south end of the island and he’d cast and catch fish here and there, and he did really well, in comparison to some of the people that we were trying to help catch fish. We were coming back from the south edge of the island and we had two or three fish that he caught. He lost a few fish and then he had very few strikes down there. I had a net float on my console (I had a compass in there but then the compass went haywire and the hole that held the compass was just right to hold the net float). When I wasn’t using the flies I’d put them in this net float. And he said, “What’s that fly there in that net float?” 7 Bill and Audrey Nelson Edited Transcript – May 7, 2007 Fly Fishing Collection ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED And I said, “Well, that’s a fly I tied for my wife.” He said, “I sure like the looks of it.” And I said, “Well, I think it’s a good one, I like it.” And he said, “I’d just love to try it. Do you suppose that your wife would mind if I tried it?” And I said, “No, she’d be delighted.” So we put in at Quathiaski Cove and the second cast he hooked a nice Coho that was swimming around in there and we got him in, and released it. (He was a good releaser he couldn’t take fish back to South Africa anyway). He kept casting and about every other cast, he’d hook another fish on the fly. He was all excited. I’d left it (the fly) on the rod (he was going to go out again the next day). He went back into the lodge for lunch. (I didn’t eat in the lodge because I thought it was too expensive and I went home for lunch). While I was at home, why he sat down at the table where there were several guides and other guests, and he started talking about Mrs. Nelson’s fly. The guides and the guests went down to the boat to look at it, and he said, “That’s it right there, that’s Mrs. Nelson’s fly.” The people that went down to look at it, they picked it up and brought it back to the lunch table and talked about it, called it the Mrs. Nelson. And it’s been “The Mrs. Nelson” ever since that. I was going to explain to you that there are a few things that are different. I tie a lot of Mrs. Nelsons because it is a very good fly. Here’s a reasonable example of the Mrs. Nelson fly. It generally has a good eye, and here’s another one, bigger. I got the idea, and maybe it’s right or maybe it’s wrong, but it seemed to work for me, that you want to match the size of the bait more than you do any other part of it. Some guys just put a great big one on and it scares the rest of the bait away. But the one that’s the same size as the bait that’s in there generally doesn’t seem to bother them. So I go from this to this, and all the way in between. TB: Wow, so these are all Mrs. Nelson’s over here (referring to some flies)? BN: Yes; and then there’s another one, you know what a candle fish is? TB: I don’t. BN: Well, it’s a very thin, minnow type thing, and people call them candle fish or needle fish. Up there in Canada, they call them needle fish, because they’re thin and long. The candle fish have enough oil in them that Eskimos can dry them and light them and they’ll work -- they have that much oil in them. At least that’s the story I get, I never tried it myself. But here’s an imitation of a candle fish, they’re darker on the back and they have a green and a pink in the sides. TB: Wow! Now did we really settle how it was that you started going up there to Quadra Island? How did you decide to retire and become a guide up there? BN: Well, we went up there many times. The guide whose family owned the lodge would come around and we’d talk to him. I was out on the dock, there, casting for perch, really, and we got pretty well acquainted. He even came down to visit us once when we were still living in the States. The Websters and the Nelsons would have a standing reservation for a cabin a certain time of the year (the first week in September). It was a big time. We’d go up there and fish and got to know quite a few people that were of course at the lodge there, and the guides. We were fishing with flies, and the guides would get a pretty big kick out of that, especially a guy named Rob Bell-Irving. He was one of the fine, fine guides. His father was Lieutenant Governor of B.C. and the background of his family was mostly medical people, but we became fast friends. He gave me the idea about keeping the boat running, and run the fish and the fly behind the boat. Up to that time we had really only cast. Then we started having so much fun doing that that it was just great fun for us. The lodge owners actually gave me an invitation to come and build a house there or lease something, but we’d already gone on the main island, Vancouver Island, with the Websters and bought a piece of property, because they were going to retire too. Warren Peterson, who was the head person there at the lodge, said, 8 Bill and Audrey Nelson Edited Transcript – May 7, 2007 Fly Fishing Collection ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED “Oh, gosh, don’t go there, come over here, you’ll like it, and we’ll lease you a piece of property to build a house on.” The lease was very reasonable, as far as I was concerned, so we talked the Websters into that too. I went out and built the first house, in this little cove, and then the next year the Websters retired, and they built a home there. The two of us settled in behind this cute little island, like you saw in the picture there. It was just like it was all supposed to happen. Then I became a guide there (1978). I was guiding while we were building the house too. It was kind of a fun thing to do, and it helped take care of a lot of our expenses. It was just a great idea, and a great thing that I enjoyed very much. It was just a part of my life that I’ll always remember. It was fun to be there. TB: Now, were there some celebrities that came up there to go fly fishing? BN: Oh yes. TB: Anybody special that you might have guided? BN: Well, let’s see, actually, I guided Julie Andrews and John Wayne. Her husband had a yacht, and I only had her one day and then we found a girl guide. That’s a little tough out in the boat when we were going out for a long time, but it was fun. She’d come up and fish for a month sometimes, stayed there. One time they were taking the yacht out and two of the guides that were very familiar with her because they were kind of the back up boat for this girl guide, and as her husband’s yacht went by the dock, one of the guides wearing his clothes, ran down the ramp, and jumped off the end of the dock, singing, “The hills are alive…” It was funnier than heck, it was kind of at lunch time, and we were up there and I thought I’d fall down laughing. You remember that? AN: No, I was home. TB: And John Wayne came up there? BN: Yes, he did. I only guided him a few times up there, but we hit it off pretty well. He had his yacht parked in the dock area there. And one time I dropped somebody else off, and I was going back and he was sitting on the fantail of his boat (it was a converted torpedo boat, that’s what his yacht was). And he says, “Hey Bill! I’ve got a problem here.” And I said, “What’s up?” And he says, “Well, I’ll show you.” I climbed the ladder, got back to the fantail there and there was another chair, and I was standing there, and he says, “You see that bottle over there? I’ve been working on that for two hours, and I only got it down that far. Now I need some help.” So I had to sit and have a drink with him…and that was fun. Now where am I? Ted Williams, did you know who Ted Williams was? TB: That’s a baseball player right? BN: Yes. That’s a picture of him there on the console and then Norman Schwarzkopf. I have nice letters from him (we kind of lost track as far as keeping in communication). AN: Bill, you should remind her you were a senior guide. There were only two of you, and Warren, the owner of the lodge, that was in your age group, which was fifty when he moved up there. The rest of them were all young kids, they were in their twenties and a few, a very few in their thirties, I think. They were young, Bill was an old guy. But he taught a lot too. The owner up there had Bill give classes to the guides on deportment, and what do you do if you don’t catch any fish, and all these different things -- look at the eagles and this and that. He knew all this other stuff. He provided entertainment out there on the water; it’s not just all fishing. TB: Oh, yes, very cool. Wow! (looking at photo) BN: That’s Norman Schwarzkopf and that’s his son, Christian. 9 Bill and Audrey Nelson Edited Transcript – May 7, 2007 Fly Fishing Collection ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED TB: And that’s you? BN: Yes. And see what Christian is holding in his hand? It’s a sling-shot. I kept the sling-shot on the boat and a can of marbles. And if the seals or sea lions became too aggressive (they would come in and grab a fish while you had it on), why you could kind of drive them off with a slingshot. That kid kept the seals off of that -- that was twenty-eight and a half pounds. Norman caught that fish on a number six fly rod, and that’s Audrey’s fly rod. AN: My fly too. I took it away from Bill right when he came in from that excursion; I put that fly and hid it so he’d never use it again. Bill gave both Norman and his son Chris a copy of the fly as a keepsake. TB: Is that what’s framed here then? AN: Yes. TB: Nice! Very cool! AN: At that time Norman was so famous it was just right after the war. He had security all over the place, flying around. TB: Oh that’s right, 1993 was after you had retired. BN: Yes, we had moved back here. We had a camper and took it to B.C. to fish and to see his old friends. End of Side Two, Tape One TB: So why don’t you tell me about taking Norman Schwarzkopf fly fishing? BN: Didn’t I tell you how they got in there and everything? TB: Well, we weren’t on tape, though. BN: Oh I see, okay. I think Ted Williams talked to Norman. They were up in that area and I’d been guiding Ted Williams a bit and he knew we were up there on a vacation. And so they got on the radio at the lodge and called me to stop, they wanted to talk to me. There was some concern about something happening to Norman, so they didn’t talk about him on the radio or anything. When I got to the lodge, why, they asked me if I would take time to guide Norman Schwarzkopf, and I said, “Well, I sure will.” So I said the tide is right at ten o’clock, and we should get on the water before ten, if we can. He was going to be in the following day so I was supposed to pick him up. He was going to be there by ten and we’d take off. I had to make sure they had everything they needed. But the chopper was late coming in. The guides would walk by me and they’d say, “Hey, what are you doing? That’s the second time you’ve washed that boat!” I said, “Well, I have to do something here, I’m waiting for a guy.” And they said, “Well, do you want us to help you?” “No,” I said, “I kind of want to stay here and keep track of it.” (I’m just washing the boat to make people think I’m busy). They got quite a kick out of that. Those guides were just wonderful at April Point. I still hear from quite a few of them. Two, three of them have their own lodges now, up on Vancouver Island, the north end of the island. We hear from them, we get Christmas cards exchanged. There are a couple of them that moved to New Zealand, we hear from then now and then. Anyway, I don’t know how I got off on that tangent. TB: Back to Schwarzkopf. 10 Bill and Audrey Nelson Edited Transcript – May 7, 2007 Fly Fishing Collection ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED BN: Okay, we’re back to Norman now. He came in on a chopper with his son and another guy that wasn’t there to fish. They took the chopper back out of there after that and took it someplace else. In a little while, here comes an Otter (DeHavilland Twin Otter two-engined) floatplane, and it pulls up by the dock. I can’t remember how many there were, at least five, maybe six guys get out of there. They had vests and sport coats, and they got off that Otter, and you could see the bulge because I know they had arms to protect in case something happened. They were the people that were going to take care of the security. They kind of grilled me and then they said, “You’re not to mention his name.” And I said, “Well, I’ll just say, the position and this is Kisser One.” The name of my boat was Kisser One. (Stan Stanton named it; he said, “That boat just kisses the water.” It was his first look at a Boston Whaler, and he says, “That’s just fine.” We were talking on his radio and mine, and it just ended up with Kisser One. It was kind of funny too.) When I took off from the dock, I would say, “Kisser One, now leaving the dock, all free and clear here,” so that they knew where I was. If there was any problem at all, they had a boat there to come. “Kisser One, south end of the island, we’re going to go out.” “Kisser One to the south end of the Marina” (that’s another island). So we went across and went to another island. We caught fish at the south end of Quadra Island, four or five of them, and released them. He was great for releasing and so was his son Christian. We went back over to Marina (we had to get him back in by four, he said) and we were over there and we were catching Coho here and there. There was a big rock pile and you had to know where the rocks were before you drove in there, and I kind of mapped it in my mind so I could drive through. There was a little kelp bed and we were releasing a fish and I looked up, and there was a big fin and tail that had come to the surface and went back down again. It was big! So, I said, “I know you want to get back, but let’s take one more shot, I saw a good rise over here. I was quite impressed with the size of the fish.” So we went by there, and he got his fly on the surface and was kind of making it move a little bit and it went right through the place where that fish had come up. And it came up, and came down on that fly just like a mako shark! It didn’t really do much for a little bit there, and then all of a sudden the fish decided, I’m not going to have anymore of this, and it takes off. Man oh man, I knew then that we had that big one. One of the other guides was in another boat and saw us over there and he tried to cut in front of the seals (when you see a fish in trouble why those seals are coming). He cut in between the seals and the fish and kind of scared them away a bit, which was a great move on his part. Norman’s son Christian was up there, I gave him the slingshot and a can of marbles, and he was good with it. I thought he hit one seal right in the middle of the head, but I don’t know for sure, I was doing a lot of other things. But he was coming so close to those seals that I think he just kept them away. He didn’t hurt any of them, I don’t think, but between the other guide running across, we got that fish up on the boat. Norman says, “Well, let’s release it.” I said, “No way! We release it guess whose going to get eaten? That fish will be eaten by seals, and I just as soon not turn it over to them. Let’s just bring it back into the lodge and get an ink print made direct from the fish (not with a camera), so that you have an idea how big it was.” It was a big fish (Chinook), caught on a number six fly rod, Audrey’s number six fly rod. Schwarzkopf just did a wonderful job playing that fish. He was a good fisherman, and I think his son, Christian, just did a wonderful job too with that slingshot. They both did well, on every fish that we hooked. TB: So it was just the three of you out on the boat? None of the security detail actually came out on the boat with you? BN: No, they had a different boat. If they thought we were in trouble in any way, why they’d come swinging around there. But they stayed half way down the island. They were in radio contact with us, and it worked out fine. I said, “Kisser One, I’m having a little trouble with a fish here, trying to get it close to the boat.” Of course that worked for them, but when they saw that fish, then they smiled and waved. 11 Bill and Audrey Nelson Edited Transcript – May 7, 2007 Fly Fishing Collection ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED TB: Any other of your own personal stories of a great fish you caught, or any other great fishing story? AN: You rowed for Tyee, or somebody rowed you because they wanted you to catch a Tyee, and you did. Everybody has to do that, or give it a try, you know. Tyee are great big, fat fish and somebody has to row a boat – no motors. BN: When they are 30 pounds or better they’re a Tyee. You can’t use a motor with them or anything; you have to row the boat. You can’t use bait so we threw out a fly. TB: And where was this? BN: This was right out in front of Painter’s Lodge on Vancouver Island, it’s right across from April Point, just about a mile and a half, across the passage. One of the guides there that I was friends with rowed me for a Tyee and I got a Tyee pin (maybe I’d better show you that). Anyway, took it on a fly, and it was quite good. It was a lot heavier rod than Norman had, a heavy weight, I think it was a number ten. We were going to catch a big fish. It’s quite a thing to be in the Tyee Club. AN: It’s an annual event up there, every season they have a big rowing contest, well, it’s not really a contest, men go out and they have just a whole bunch of rowers out there trying to get these big fish and see who can get the biggest fish. BN: That’s kind of at the mouth of the Campbell River, itself. They say it was great fun to live there. TB: Then you came back to Eugene in 1989. You must have rejoined the McKenzie Fly Fishers. Do you want to tell me a little bit about what you’ve been doing since 1989? And especially I want to know about your Lapis Lazuli Award. AN: Well they only give one of those every year. I don’t know how long they’ve been giving those, actually. Not every year since it started. It’s one of the nicest awards given at the conclaves. BN: Well, I think they gave that to me in 1990. My guides and I started a fly club up in Canada. TB: Oh, up in Canada too! BN: The April Point Fly Fishing Club. AN: They didn’t have anything to do with that award, though, honey, by the time you came here … BN: Well, what I’m driving for is because I kind of got three clubs started and whatever else, they decided they were going to make an award, so that’s how it got there. AN: I think you were Master of Ceremonies for that event weren’t you? BN: I think so, yes. TB: For the 1990 Conclave in Eugene? BN: Yes. TB: It’s hard to get you to brag about yourself! The three clubs you started were: the McKenzie Fly Fishers, the one up in Canada (April Point Fly Fishing Club), what is the third club? BN: I was instrumental in helping the Klamath Country Fly Fishing Club. They recognized us, so I’m an honorary member, and then the same thing at Reedsport -- the Reedsport Club. 12 Bill and Audrey Nelson Edited Transcript – May 7, 2007 Fly Fishing Collection ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED TB: Well, how about Lew Bell? What were some of his great accomplishments? You can’t tell me his story, but what do you think are significant things I should know about Lew Bell? BN: I miss him! He was a great conservationist, a good fisherman, and a wonderful friend! I think, individually, he did as much for other people as anyone I’ve ever known, and an attorney at that! You don’t think attorneys are going to be that great, but he was, he was the greatest. He sent me a couple of things, you know. (To Audrey) -- go get one of those glasses, would you, with a fly in it? Oh, here it is! He sent me this set of [glasses]. AN: Oh, that’s why you won’t let me throw them away! They’re all beat up. I almost threw them out. BN: Well it’s kind of that Lew gave them to me. And then there’s Dick Padovan. TB: Yes, so tell me about him. BN: Well, he’s been on the Grande Ronde with us and been a very fine friend also. He was a banker, a manager of a bank in Everett, and you wouldn’t think that those attributes that he has, of kindness and straight-forwardness with his friends would come from a guy that has been in the bank business! Anyway, he’s still up there, he lives on Puget Sound, and we phone each other pretty often. He’s a good friend. TB: What about Walt Johnson? You’ve got his flies over there. BN: Yes, Walt Johnson, yes, I knew him quite well, took me a minute for my brain to wake up. He tied some flies and sent them to Audrey and me that she used for pins, you know, they’re just gorgeous. He’s one of the great fly tiers of all time, as far as I’m concerned, and he lived right on the Stilly in his later life. I imagine Jack Hutchinson had a few things to say about Walt. TB: He’s mentioned his name. Did you know Ralph Wahl? You’ve got his flies up there. BN: Yes, quite well. TB: Did you ever go fishing up at Deer Creek? Or that was probably already gone by the time you were fishing? BN: No, I fished there, a lot of guys just had a summer home right there, right where Deer Creek comes in to the Stilly and Lew and I would fish it. Gosh I started thinking about that now. Things are just flooding down into my mind here about being with Lew on the river. One time he handed me his rod, I had reeled mine in and he wanted to light a cigarette, so he handed me his rod. He had already cast it, and I just kind of made a little move like this (demonstrating), made the fly move a little bit, and a steelhead took it. And I handed him my rod, and he says “Oh, no, you can’t get away with that!” He says, “You’re just trying to make me feel bad.” So I handed him the rod with the fish on it, and he says “No way! No way!” He’s just something else, just wonderful to be with. AN: Gordy Swanson. You fish with him a lot too, didn’t you? Or did you? BN: We all went to Davis Lake; more people went to Davis Lake than I think were on the Stilly. The whole club would come down and we’d fish at Davis Lake. AN: The two clubs would go and hold an annual thing, I think, maybe they still do. BN: Well they do it on the rivers now, they have a steelhead outing. What we started was a Davis Lake thing and the guys would bring their whole family, and camp there. Then we just had great things happen. We’d have frog races. 13 Bill and Audrey Nelson Edited Transcript – May 7, 2007 Fly Fishing Collection ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED TB: Frog races! BN: Yes, there were a couple of kids, one of the kids, I think Gordy Swanson’s son, would go and catch frogs. There are frogs all around in the reeds at Davis Lake and then we would have frog races. Monty Rounds was there, he became our frog master, or whatever you want to call him, so that was for McKenzie, and then the Evergreen had somebody else going this way, we’d have two or three frogs on the same eating table, you know, with the benches on it, and they’d put a little stick at one end there and they would start them behind the stick. Monty was our frog keeper and he’d get his mouth full of gin (only he wouldn’t let anybody know anything), and he could go like that with his teeth (demonstrating), and the minute he set the frog down and then says, “Go”, why he’d (demonstrating) and the frog would just jump!. We won more frog races with gin than we did with the regular training, it was wild! I don’t understand how we could have so much fun, having frog races, but we did, it was fun. TB: Okay, well, anything else I haven’t asked you that you’d like to make sure we get on the record. BN: I can’t figure out where we are now, let’s see. Lee Wulff was a lot of help in doing the Federation stuff; he just was a wonderful guy. He stayed with us in Eugene a few times when it had nothing to do with the Federation or anything else. I took him fishing on the Alsea for cutthroat. The way I caught cutthroat there was I would pitch in underneath the brush and stuff and try to get one to come out of there, I thought they were hiding in there all the time, but Lee, he knew what was going on, and he out-fished me about eight to one. He’d even use my fly, and he’d fish the various places he thought the fish were and he had a propensity for knowing that. Did you know that he wrote a book about wading? TB: No. BN: Yes, wading on the rivers. We were fishing on the Grande Ronde and Lew would go down this one point where the water would turn and churn and he’d get out of the water and go back up again because he couldn’t get across the other side there. He’d go back up again to get across the other side and then he’d fish the other side of the river. Lee was backing up to get back up, and he waded the river. He was serious, he wasn’t fooling anybody when he said this is how you are supposed to wade, and he did it, he waded. He did a wonderful job of wading. He was a good guy too, he wasn’t pulling anybody’s leg or anything -- he just was a good guy. TB: He still has some kind of line of I think. BN: Yes, he’s got a company his wife runs and they sell rods and different things and they ship it everywhere. My son visited there, and he had a fly rod that I got for some reason or another, it was awarded to me, remember that rod, that little bamboo rod? AN: Yes. He died a long time ago (1991). His wife married another fellow then later and she’s still teaching fly fishing and things like that. BN: He was getting a recheck on his pilot’s license, and something went wrong with the airplane and it crashed. He was killed. I was awarded a Lee Wulff designed rod, and it was Lee Wulff by Lee Wulff and I gave it to my son. He has a friend that’s a wholesale salesman for fishing tackle, and he said that this is the original Lee Wulff rod. AN: Craig (our son) just happened to bring out that rod to show him and he said, “Oh, you’ve seen this?” The guy almost fainted because it was a real Lee Wulff original. That’s kind of nice. BN: The wholesale tackle salesman told him it’s worth about five thousand dollars now. So, you know, that’s kind of scary. I don’t think Craig uses it anymore. 14 Bill and Audrey Nelson Edited Transcript – May 7, 2007 Fly Fishing Collection ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED AN: He probably doesn’t! He’s probably got it on display. TB: Why don’t you tell me a little bit about how you see the future of fly fishing? BN: Well, I think it’s gaining and I think there’s more people concerned about being able to fly fish than any other thing. I mean there are guides now that live off of fly fishing. TB: But is that hurting the sport? BN: No, I don’t think so. I think if anything, it helps it and most of the guys that I know that guide are very happy to release the fish. We’ve made a tool to be able to release those fish. Should I show her that? AN: Sure, yes, that would be good. TB: Wait, not right now, lets finish the tape part of the interview. I’ve heard some people not being happy with the current etiquette, feeling like there’s getting to be too many people and some of them are pretty rude. AN: I think in all sports and all of society, it’s just much more casual and not very nice sometimes. BN: Well, I know Gordy Swanson says, “It’s too political, the Federation’s getting too political.” There are too many guys that just want to run for office or something. I agree with him, to some extent, but I don’t agree totally. He’s got a good mind and he’s a good guy and everybody isn’t going to be as good as he is, and he’s got to figure that out. End of Side One, Tape Two BN: Gordy has property up on the Stilly. When we have an outing there he just takes care of everybody and does a great job. We have a McKenzie Cup; the McKenzie Cup goes between the two clubs, between the McKenzie Fly Fishers and the Evergreen Fly Fishers. Whoever catches the biggest fish, or I think it’s the biggest steelhead; they get to take the trophy home. I think the Everett guys have really done awfully well and have retained their possession of that trophy. Sometimes we get some pretty good guys here too, don’t get me wrong, there’s some awfully good guys here, good fisherman. Of course that’s not all there is in life, there’s more to association with people that you respect and like and they are easier to find in the fly clubs than they are anywhere else in the country. It seems like these people that are in a fly fishing club have more ability to be semi-polite. You very seldom hear bad language with the guys that are fly fisherman, I’m not sure, but they may be hoping The Lord will forgive them. If they pay attention it comes out that way. It just seems to be that way. I’ve gone to church for a long time and I believe in the Christian way of life, and I try to keep my language reasonable, and some guys, they just, man, it embarrasses me. I didn’t use to be that like before I went to college and was in the Navy, why I heard some strange speaking and I think I responded (but I’m not positive) in some way. There are some good guys in the Navy too, but in the fly club, you’ll find an awful lot of them. There’s something that turns them on to fly fishing, and I think it has something to do with character. It’s hard to find a real jerk in the fly clubs. Most of them are really good people, and its fun to know them. You don’t just talk about fly fishing every moment, you have some other conversations. We hope that we get enough guys with the right attitudes that will be able to present ourselves to other organizations to help save, what we consider to be a wonderful resource, and that’s the fish and the sport. We’re getting to the point now where you have to buy so many licenses and do so many strange things -- like if you want to go crabbing when you’re down there on the bay; you have to have a license for that. And if you want to take … I’m going to get this so I can show you. 15 Bill and Audrey Nelson Edited Transcript – May 7, 2007 Fly Fishing Collection ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED I’ve gotten to a point where I stuff my licenses into one thing here, and I’ll take them out for you, it’s amazing what’s here. That kind of bothers me but if it’s going to save the sport, why then that’s great! I’ll just read them off to you here. Now this is a boating card, and it says “has successfully completed the boating safety course, which meets the standards set by the Natural Association of State Boating Law Administrators.” I have to keep that with me. And here’s a shellfish license so you can get things like clams and crabs, when you’re down there fishing in the salt chuck. Senior citizen permanent license number, hunting/angling license, that’s all well and good, but by the time you’re through adding the other things on here, the cost of this punch card, you think that you’re saving something by being a senior citizen, let’s hope that we are sometime -- no charge down at the bottom, no charge, so you’re getting the hunting and fishing license basically for being an old guy. And all these things, you know, it’s a darn nuisance -because we are tested. Now this has something to do with the guiding, but pretty soon you wonder what’s going to happen. You carry all of this so you’ll be able to fish. I hope it helps them but I wonder how helpful some of this stuff is. I hope it helps all of the agencies that do take care of the fish. And watch out for real bubble heads out there in the water. Anyway, I thought we’d bring that in. Well let’s see, what else can I confuse you with? TB: No, no, I think that’s good. Maybe the only other thing I have a question about is you said you went fishing in New Zealand. Where else have you gone that’s kind of exotic? Have you been to Christmas Island? BN: Yes, I’ve been to Christmas Island several times and also to Mexico, Belize, and to Los Rogues. That’s an island just north of Venezuela. It’s kind of fun to go there and see it. Bone fish is the big thing there. I’ve also fished in Argentina at the south end where the rivers run into the sea. I flew down there with Marty Rathje a long time ago. AN: And Alaska. You’ve been to Alaska several times. I remember fishing “Yes Bay” near Anchorage with a group of friends. BN: Oh yes, we go to Alaska and British Columbia. In fact, every fall for many years, I think back twenty years that we’d go to Tofino, B.C. and there’d be, Dick Padovan and let’s see … John Fabian went with us once. My son and grandson went with us a couple times and others. It was a wonderful group. TB: Well, I think that’s it for my questions. Then maybe you can also show me the release tool. BN: Oh the release tool, yes! AN: You should demonstrate how that works. BN: Oh yes, I’ve got a demonstrator too. TB: Okay. End of Recording 16 Bill and Audrey Nelson Edited Transcript – May 7, 2007 Fly Fishing Collection ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED 17 Bill and Audrey Nelson Edited Transcript – May 7, 2007 Fly Fishing Collection ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED
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Title: Lyn Dennis interview [transcript]
Part of: Lyn Dennis interview
Date: 1993-02-11
Type of resource: text
Object custodian: Center for Pacific Northwest Studies
Related Collection: Women in the commercial fishing industry research collection
Local Identifier: dennis19930211_transcript
Text preview (might not show all results): Lynn Dennis Interview 1 Washington Women’s Heritage Project, Center for Pacific Northwest Studies Interview with Lynn Dennis Interview Date: 1993 February 11 Interviewer: Carole Teshima Morris Locatio
Show moreLynn Dennis Interview 1 Washington Women’s Heritage Project, Center for Pacific Northwest Studies Interview with Lynn Dennis Interview Date: 1993 February 11 Interviewer: Carole Teshima Morris Location: Transcription by: Bonnie Gregory 2007 June 28. [TAPE 1. SIDE A] MORRIS: This is February 11th, 1993 and I am interviewing Lynn Dennis. Okay, Lynn, for the record, how old are you? DENNIS: Oh, I’m 31 years old. MORRIS: And you were born where? DENNIS: In Bellingham, Washington. MORRIS: Lynn, when did you start fishing? DENNIS: Oh, about ten years ago. MORRIS: On your own, or…? DENNIS: Well, actually I got into fishing through my, he was my boyfriend at the time and he was a fisherman and so I went out fishing with him and got my first taste of fishing and thought to myself, “Well, gee, I can probably do this on my own.” So I ventured out and started in the Nooksack River with a little 12-foot boat. MORRIS: How long was it before you got your own boat? DENNIS: Well probably- I’d say I went fishing a couple of years as a crewmember and then decided to get my own boat, and so I began in the Nooksack River with the 12footer and then began getting bigger skiffs- open skiffs- and then working my way up to a small gill-netter, which I have today; it’s about a 21-foot gill-netter with a reel on it, and I fish mainly up at Point Roberts for Sockeye salmon. MORRIS: So, can you explain about the tribal fisheries, can anybody in the tribe start going fishing, or…? DENNIS: Well, you have to be a tribally enrolled- well, I shouldn’t say tribal- you have to be an enrolled tribal member and you have to get a number through the tribe and once you get enrolled and get that number then you are eligible to get a treaty license to commercial fish. And also that would include getting clams and also crab. MORRIS: And so you don’t fish in the river at all anymore? Women in the Commercial Fishing Industry Research Collection Center for Pacific Northwest Studies Western Washington University Bellingham WA 98225-9123 Lynn Dennis Interview 2 DENNIS: Not anymore, not anymore. MORRIS: You’ve moved on to bigger things? DENNIS: Well, I shouldn’t say that, I don’t think it’s really a way of looking at it, but I really enjoy the openness of the water rather than- to me it seems, I feel more refined when I’m in the river, although it’s kind of fun to go fishing in the river. I haven’t been fishing in the river for years, but it’s kind of fun because you get in line at a drift and you wait, wait your turn to drift, and then during the time that you’re waiting for your drift then you can visit with the other fishermen and fisherwomen, so that’s kinda nice, but I don’t really miss it. I like the openness of Point Roberts, for example. MORRIS: Does your boat have a name? DENNIS: It sure does! The Humdinger [laughter], named by my mother. MORRIS: And you bought this new, right? DENNIS: Yes. In fact I ordered the boat and had it built and paid it off and went fishingsalmon season. MORRIS: Alright. This is a growler boat, is that right? DENNIS: Mm hmm, yes. And it has a [“wahouse”] on it. MORRIS: Oh, it does. So you stay on your boat when you’re…? DENNIS: Well, I normally don’t, I usually have my crewmember that I hire sleep in the boat and watch over my boat and I’ll sleep in the camper with my parents. MORRIS: Well that’s nice. Who do you usually take as a crewmember? DENNIS: Somebody who’s strong and- [laughter] strong and has a good background in terms of mechanical abilities and somebody that has some fishing experience. Not too excited about taking-we call them “greenhorns”- out fishing. MORRIS: So does this mean you usually have a man or a woman? DENNIS: Well, I usually have a man just because of the mechanical abilities, but I’ve had women fish with me too in the past. MORRIS: How many women do you estimate are in the [inaudible]? DENNIS: Well, I would say that the number has increased, for example for the Lummi tribe, I would say that roughly 25% are women that fish. Women in the Commercial Fishing Industry Research Collection Center for Pacific Northwest Studies Western Washington University Bellingham WA 98225-9123 Lynn Dennis Interview 3 MORRIS: Wow, that many. DENNIS: I’d say so. Or that might be even a little high, maybe more like 20%. MORRIS: What are your estimates as far as the total fleet? DENNIS: I don’t know. I’ve been told we have approximately 3200 tribal members. I’ve been told there’s about 800 who commercial fish, and that would include purseseiners, gill-netters, and skiff fishermen, fisherwomen. MORRIS: Do you do your own gear work? DENNIS: No, I don’t. I probably-- I know I should learn how, but I don’t. What I do normally is I’m very busy in my other work and other jobs that I do that I haven’t taken the time out to learn how to repair gear. I do know how to hang net, but generally what I do is I take it to a friend of mine and I have her hang my net. I pay her to hang my net. In fact, I got ran over last year really bad by a big pleasure boat and had to get the net repaired, I had to drive my boat from Point Roberts down to Bellingham and take the net off the boat and run it and have- her name is Rachel Manlove- have her repair the net and once she got that done- it probably took her about two days- then I had to load it back on the truck and then load it back on the boat and so it was quite a process, but generally I don’t hang my gear. MORRIS: So, it’s pretty expensive to have backup gear, right? DENNIS: Oh, yes, yes, well, it’s- gear is expensive. People think that fishing is all glorified, but it’s not. They think that you make lots of money all the time, and that’s not true. I could go out fishing one day and make just enough money for fuel and lunch, and then the next day I could do very well, so commercial fishing is definitely a gamble. MORRIS: Like you said, you have other jobs: for the tribe you do public relations work. How much time do you actually spend fishing out of a year? DENNIS: Well, generally I try to take the month of August off from the college and fish, because when I get into the fishing mode it’s real exciting and I get to get out in the fresh air and have some time to myself. I don’t have to dress up, I don’t have to wear high heels or makeup or… I can just put on my jeans and boots and go out fishing, and I really like that a lot. MORRIS: So it’s not so much the money that attracts you? DENNIS: Well, the money is attractive to me, but I think that just having that time to myself and I really enjoy the water, that the money is definitely a plus, but at the same time I enjoy the quietness and the serenity of when I’m out in the water. MORRIS: What about bad weather? Women in the Commercial Fishing Industry Research Collection Center for Pacific Northwest Studies Western Washington University Bellingham WA 98225-9123 Lynn Dennis Interview 4 DENNIS: Bad weather. Well, that’s something that, that I’ve learned not to fool around with, because I’ve had a couple of close calls fishing, and I think that when- at least for me, when I’ve been fishing- I have the attitude that “Oh, I can do anything out in that water and I’ll be okay.” But after having a couple of close calls it’s changed my attitude and made me more respectful of the weather and not to take any risks and- not that I have in the past a lot, but for example, one time I was leaving Sandy Point and I wanted to get up to Point Roberts that night- get my boat up there that night- and I knew it was blowing, but I didn’t really realize how hard it was blowing, because I thought “Oh, it’s only going to take me, oh, I’d say maybe a half hour to get up to Point Roberts from Sandy Point.” Wrong. It took me a good two-and-a-half, three hours and it was rough out. My parents were really worried about me and thank goodness I had a CB on my boat , but they were really concerned and I didn’t realize until I was about halfway there that I thought and realized, “It is really rough out here. Am I even going to make it?” And that was a scary feeling, and so I learned a very good lesson from that attempt to want to go against Mother Nature and still try to get to my destination and I realized that it really wasn’t that important; I could have waited until morning and gone out fishing. Maybe I wouldn’t have been where I wanted to fish but at least I wouldn’t have been taking the chance that I took. MORRIS: And you were by yourself, you didn’t have your crew? DENNIS: No, I had my crew with me, but… It’s still, it can get pretty scary out there. MORRIS: Does the fleet sort of stick together, do they kind of all move out to the point at the same time? DENNIS: Well, not necessarily. Well, there’s quite a few fishermen who head out to the salmon banks, which is right off the Strait of Juan de Fuca, and then there’s fishermen who fish around this area, around Lummi Island, and then there’s also fishermen up at Point Roberts, so all the fishermen have their own preferences to where they like to fish. Generally, it’s places that they know how to fish, because they’re certain- let’s say for example up at Point Roberts, there’s a reef up there. Depending on what the tide is doing, depending on how deep your net is, you can’t just fish there, and so fishermen have their preference as to where they like to fish. Maybe they felt lucky at one area as compared to another area, and so it really varies. It just depends on the individual fisherman or fisherwoman. MORRIS: Does anyone else in your family fish? DENNIS: Yes, in fact everybody fishes in my family. My brothers have skiffs and gillnetters and my mother and father have a gill-netter, so everybody fishes. And it’s fun too, because we can do something where we’re making money and at the same time we’re getting to spend time with each other. [Interruption- knock on door]. MORRIS: Do you think you’re ever experienced discrimination or anything because you’re a woman? Women in the Commercial Fishing Industry Research Collection Center for Pacific Northwest Studies Western Washington University Bellingham WA 98225-9123 Lynn Dennis Interview 5 DENNIS: Of course [laughter]! MORRIS: What, like what? DENNIS: Well, when I first began fishing in the river nobody took me seriously, and I was made fun of and joked around about because I think the fishermen did not think I was serious about pursuing this fishing. Through time, they realized that I was serious and that I did mean business and that I was going to be fishing for a long time, and it’s like in a sense earning my keep. And now I’m one of the guys, one of the fishermen, so to speak. When fishing comes around other fishermen ask me “Oh, so Lynn are you getting ready for fishing? How deep are you going, how deep is your net going to be?” Questions like that, so I’ve been accepted and they realize that I’m serious about it now, so they treat me differently. MORRIS: Did it make you mad or anything? DENNIS: Mm hmm, it made me mad. I think that it’s probably difficult for men to see a woman get into an industry that they’ve been in all their lives. I mean, I’m sure it was difficult, but there’s getting to be more and more women involved in the fishing industry that it’s becoming very common for women to be fishing now and it’s, though my eyes, quite acceptable by the men. MORRIS: Do you think any of this was actual harassment, or more just of a…? DENNIS: No, not at all harassment, I just think that many men were not used to seeing women fish, but I do have to say something that I think is very, very prevalent in that if any one of us gets in trouble on the water, there’s plenty of help out there. If somebody breaks down, needs to be towed in, there’s somebody there right away to help out, and so what I really like about it when I’m out fishing is that there’s always somebody there to help out if you get in trouble, so it’s very important to have a CB on your boat. But I think that says a lot. I’m very proud of my people in that sense, that when somebody’s in trouble or in distress there’s plenty of fishermen, fisherwomen who are willing to help out. MORRIS: So, when you were growing up were your parents fishing, or not at that time? DENNIS: Well, my dad always fished up Alaska, fished a purse-seiner throughout Alaska, so he would be gone for months at a time and fished up there. MORRIS: So you knew about fishing but you never really had the opportunity of…? DENNIS: Right, right. Women in the Commercial Fishing Industry Research Collection Center for Pacific Northwest Studies Western Washington University Bellingham WA 98225-9123 Lynn Dennis Interview 6 MORRIS: So what do you think is going to be happening in this industry, do you think that, you know the management of the resources and the politics, what kind of effect do you think that’s going to have? DENNIS: Well, the US-Canada Treaty has had a devastating effect and impact for both Indian and non-Indian fishermen in the state of Washington in that the treaty that Regan has signed basically gave away all of our rights for that duration of that treaty because it’s hurt a lot of us financially. We’ve gone from days of fishing during an opening to hours, and what’s really difficult is that for example a father supporting his family of five children, goes out fishing the season opens up 5am Monday morning, closes Tuesday morning 9am. He goes out fishing, he’s out there, has his nets set out at the beginning of the opening, then his motor breaks down. He can’t get anybody to fix that motor and he loses out on that opening. And the way that the openings have been going we’ve only been getting- last year I think we got six, maybe five or six openings for the whole Sockeye salmon season. That’s really scary. I don’t have any children. I don’t have a husband, so I don’t have a family that I have to support, but it’s been very devastating to many of our families here on the reservation because of the reduction of hours, because of our allocation of salmon has been decreasing each year whereas the allocation of salmon for the Canadians has bee on the upswing. But I do know that the tribes are meeting about this treaty now, they’re in Bellevue as we speak. I don’t know what the outcome will be, but it’s about time that we US citizens do something about this. And I do know that the tribes are working on it, I don’t know how much the non-Indian fishermen are involved but I do know that it’s a very important issue to the Washington state tribes. MORRIS: Have you ever considered getting involved in political actions in that regard? DENNIS: Well, I’ve considered it. I think that the kind of work that I do now, it’s not focused on politics, but I end up being involved very much so with the tribal politics because I work at the casino and I work at the college and those are the two big agenda items to the Council. In terms of possibly getting involved politically in regards to the fisheries, I would definitely consider it. I feel- I always go when it feels right, when the timing is there and… But we’ll see what happens in the future. My brother is involvedBobby is involved- with the Lummi Indian Fish and Game Commission and he attends a lot of these types of meetings and is a representative of the tribe, so I feel very good about that because whenever I have any questions I can go and ask him and I feel good that there is somebody else in my family that’s involved, because I feel that in order for us to have control of our destiny, and have control of our future through education, plus having out tribal members be involved in important issues such as fishing. MORRIS: Um, did you tell me a few days ago that you were getting into the crab? DENNIS: Well, I am in the crab business and I don’t know why, but I am [giggling]. I have 50 crab pots and I commercial crab them. MORRIS: When did you start that? Women in the Commercial Fishing Industry Research Collection Center for Pacific Northwest Studies Western Washington University Bellingham WA 98225-9123 Lynn Dennis Interview 7 DENNIS: I bought them about 3, 4 months ago. MORRIS: So how often do you go out? DENNIS: Well, I actually don’t go out, I have my brother watch over my crab pots, and we’ve worked out a percentage. MORRIS: So you’re a crab pot despot? [laughter] DENNIS: I wouldn’t say that. We’re allowed to have up to a hundred pots, tribal members. But I have 50, you have to have 50 in order to get a crab license here. MORRIS: So is that out in Sandy Point, that area? DENNIS: We have different areas, Sandy Point, right out here at Lummi Bay, down by the Fisherman’s Cove, so there’s various- there’s different areas to crab, Lummi Island, so-- Just depends on where you want to crab, but we have boundaries that we have to adhere to. MORRIS: So this is something that, since your brother’s actually doing the work, you just wanted to diversify a little bit? DENNIS: Yeah I wanted to diversify a little. There’s not many women who have invested and have crab pots so I guess I’m just somebody who likes to be out in the front tier, I guess, so to speak, and I think what’s really good about the way I was brought up was that my father taught me to realize that even if I am a female that I am just as capable as other males, so I tend to delve out into areas that the traditional woman doesn’t get involved in such as investing. I’ve takes some risks in terms of fishing in terms of crabbing, in terms of investing and I’m glad that I’ve taken those risks because they’ve turned out to be financially smart moves, but, at the same time, it’s been kind of scary, and scary too in the sense that there’s not many other women that are involved in like let’s say fishing or crabbing. So I guess I like to be out in front and doing something innovative and creative. MORRIS: So part of the challenge is the management, it’s not just the work? DENNIS: Oh, yes, definitely, and I like challenges. That’s why I’ve opted to get into the fishing industry and the crabbing. I think it makes me more of a well-rounded person to understand the other areas of being a tribal member, learning about fishing, learning about crabbing. I don’t know very much about crabbing, I’m learning, but I think it’s good to be a well-rounded person, to be able to talk to a fisherman, be able to talk to Women in the Commercial Fishing Industry Research Collection Center for Pacific Northwest Studies Western Washington University Bellingham WA 98225-9123
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Title: Lyn Dennis interview [audio part 2 of 2]
Part of: Lyn Dennis interview
Date: 1993-02-11
Type of resource: sound recording
Object custodian: Center for Pacific Northwest Studies
Related Collection: Women in the commercial fishing industry research collection
Local Identifier: dennis19930211-1b

Title: Katrina Jez interview [audio part 2 of 2]
Part of: Katrina Jez interview
Date: 1993-02-11
Type of resource: sound recording
Object custodian: Center for Pacific Northwest Studies
Related Collection: Women in the commercial fishing industry research collection
Local Identifier: jez19931512-1b

Title: Katrina Jez interview [audio part 1 of 2]
Part of: Katrina Jez interview
Date: 1993-02-11
Type of resource: sound recording
Object custodian: Center for Pacific Northwest Studies
Related Collection: Women in the commercial fishing industry research collection
Local Identifier: jez19931512-1a

Title: Katrina Jez interview [transcript]
Part of: Katrina Jez interview
Date: 1993-02-11
Type of resource: text
Object custodian: Center for Pacific Northwest Studies
Related Collection: Women in the commercial fishing industry research collection
Local Identifier: jezk19931512_transcript
Text preview (might not show all results): Katrina Jez Interview 1 Washington Women’s Heritage Project, Center for Pacific Northwest Studies Interview with Katrina Jez Interview Date: 1993 May 12 Interviewer: Carole Teshima Morris Location: Wh
Show moreKatrina Jez Interview 1 Washington Women’s Heritage Project, Center for Pacific Northwest Studies Interview with Katrina Jez Interview Date: 1993 May 12 Interviewer: Carole Teshima Morris Location: Whatcom County, Washington Transcription by: Megan Bezzo, 2007 June 19. [TAPE 1. SIDE A] MORRIS: Okay, Katrina. Why don’t we start with how old you are, a little bit about your background, where you were born and how long you’ve been in Whatcom County? JEZ: Okay. Um, I’m thirty-five. I was born in Texas. I’ve been in Whatcom Count y about seven years and I started fishing when I arrived here and fished for about six years. MORRIS: So did you fish here in the county? JEZ: I fished in Alaska, mostly around Craig and Ketchikan – the southeast. MORRIS: Did you have any previous exp erience with fishing? How did you get into that? JEZ: I got into it because of [Fred?]. He ran the boat and I went with him and learned. It’s pretty common in purse-seining to take on new people anyway. MORRIS: So your whole experience was in purse-seining? JEZ: Mmm hmm. MORRIS: And that involves kind of a larger crew than gillnetting, right? JEZ: Purse-seiners carry a crew of about five or six people. MORRIS: And so were you the only woman on the crew? JEZ: The only woman. MORRIS: And can you describe maybe a typical season? How many times did you go up? JEZ: Okay. You leave at the end of June to go up north. But the actual fishing season starts in May because you start working on the gear, getting the boat ready, putting the sand in the boat, painting the boat, stocking the boat with groceries, working on the nets. Then you leave at the end of June when the salmon start running toward the coast of Alaska. It takes 72 hours to get up there and you run the boat continually, day and night, until you get there. The first stop is Ketchikan. Um, the seasons are regulated by the State Women in the Commercial Fishing Industry Research Collection Center for Pacific Northwest Studies Western Washington University Bellingham WA 98225-9123 Katrina Jez Interview 2 – the fishing times and the areas. Every area is numbered and, um, mostly they work a two-day-on, two-day-off now. When I first started about six years ago there were times when you’d have four days in a row fishing. You’d be off two days and they you’d get three days to fish, depending on what the stocks are – the level of fish. MORRIS: What year was it when you started fishing? JEZ: ’86 was the first year. MORRIS: And how many did you say again? How many years did you fish? JEZ: Six years. MORRIS: Does the whole crew usually go up when you run the boat up? JEZ: Usually. Sometimes you’ll have a crew member join you from another area, come down and fly into Ketchikan from Bristol Bay or some of the areas finishing up. But for the most part the whole crew travels up together. MORRIS: Is it usually the same crew or do you switch other crew members? JEZ: Depends a lot on the boat. Um, the better boats with higher yields generally will have the same crew more often than not and the boats that, for some reason, either have some problem on them because they don’t like the skipper or because they jump to a boat and make a higher annual salary will go to different boats. MORRIS: So how many different boats have you fished on? JEZ: I just fished on the one. MORRIS: What’s the name of it? JEZ: It’s Elaine B. Actually, I fished on two boats with the same skipper. The Juliette first, which is a wooden seiner owned by a cannery and then Scott, the skipper, purchased a steel boat a couple years into my fishing career and we started working on that boat. MORRIS: So how big is the boat? JEZ: Um, a limit seiner is 58 feet. You’ll find most of the seiners to be 58 feet or 56 feet. It won’t be any more than 58 feet or else it’s not allowed to up to Alaska. Here in, um, Puget Sound they don’t have that footage limit and then there’s also a grandfather clause so you will see some boats that are over 58 feet going up to Alaska fishing because traditionally they had been there before. MORRIS: Do you feel like you’ve had equal opportunities fishing as far as salary? Let’s start with salary. Women in the Commercial Fishing Industry Research Collection Center for Pacific Northwest Studies Western Washington University Bellingham WA 98225-9123 Katrina Jez Interview 3 JEZ: Salary yes. No problem there. Um, each crew member gets a share which, depending on the skipper, how much you get can range between eight percent and ten percent. MORRIS: Does it matter how long you’ve fished what your percent is? JEZ: That varies by what the skipper wants to do. Um, like, a seventeen-year-old, eighteen- year-old, when they start out they only get a half-share. But then they’re given certain compensations. They’ll get to sleep in a little later in the morning and may not have to stay up as late at night or do as many night watches just because they’re younger. MORRIS: Do you want to talk some about what you do on a boat, what your duties are? JEZ: Okay. Um, well in the six years I was able to do just about everything on the boat. Um, three people are on the back deck at the standard piling gear. One piles web, one piles corks, and the other person piles the lead. I did everything except pile the lead because they were heavy and I didn’t want to have to do that anyway [chuckles]. Um, another crew member runs the skiff, which hauls the end of the net out and the boat is on one of the net and the skiff is on the other and the two are joined together and that’s how the fishing process works. Um, when you work with six on the boat, not only is the skipper on the deck, but then also there’s a deck person and they run around and hook up parts of the net, help bring the bag of fish at the end hydraulically into the hatch and dump it. Um, along with just the hauling in of the gear, there’s the duty of engineer, which also runs refrigeration in the new boats. Um, there’s cooks. And the n the other people do other jobs like certain repairs or more net work. Or they’ll do more watches. Everybody splits up the work. MORRIS: Do you feel like you ever were treated differently by crew members because you were a woman? JEZ: Well, in my case I was the skipper’s girlfriend so the first year I felt I had to work harder to, uh, prove that I could be there. But then after – maybe that’s just a fact of what you call ‘being green’- you’re ended up given more rotten work to do just because you haven’t been on the boat as long. Um, I think it really depends on the age of the people you’re working with and their experience with women. In my case, I didn’t have a lot of problems. Some women had had problems on boats because it’s just the quality of men they were working with, they didn’t have respect for women. But, I think that’s, um, very independent [sic] upon what boat you’re on. MORRIS: Were there ever any problems with your own privacy or - ? JEZ: No. MORRIS: - anything like that? Women in the Commercial Fishing Industry Research Collection Center for Pacific Northwest Studies Western Washington University Bellingham WA 98225-9123 Katrina Jez Interview 4 JEZ: As far as that goes, I think the men were really quite polite. Boats are fairly big. Um, in my case there was a state room upstairs and there’s two bunks there and then downstairs there’s a bulk hold but I never had to stay in the bulk hold. But women who have, you know, report no problems. MORRIS: Do you know of many other women out there who fish on purse-seiners as crew members? JEZ: More and more women are fishing for purse-seiners. Um, first it was either wives or girlfriends but now there’s women who are just joining in as a crewmember. And, um, I think it’s a pretty good way to make a living if you like that type of, uh, work. MORRIS: And why do you think that? What makes it a good living? JEZ: What makes it a good living? Um, it’s a short season – it’s July and August, part of September and you’re through. You can make- almost, if you want to live frugally- you could make a living doin’ it. If you, um, want to pursue something else – like some of the people, uh, do ski instructing – so then you have a summer season and you have a winter season of work. A lot of people travel. You get the opportunity to travel in the winter and go wherever you want. Um, you put in a lot of hours, like there are days where you work seventeen, eighteen, nineteen hours days. So if you stop and add up the hours that you put in, for your year of work in the two months, you’ve actually almost put in as much as somebody who works eight hours a day at a regular job. MORRIS: Have you noticed any changes over the six years? Maybe in the resources? Fishing time? Regulations? JEZ: I think the biggest changes I’ve seen are more in the boats. The market has demanded refrigerated fish to be able to get a good price for your fish. And that, in a lot of ways, has made fishing a lot easier because you’re delivering a colder product. You don’t have to deliver every night to a tender where you had to before because the fish wouldn’t be fresh enough. Now you can, you know, bring in your last net load for the day, go find a place, and anchor up and fish some the next morning without having to wait in line for a tender throughout the night and not get much sleep. So that has made things easier. And it’s a little bit more expens ive for the skippers to get into it and, you know, to keep up and keep competitive in the market. MORRIS: Do you ever do any of the bookwork or financial planning? JEZ: Nope. None of that. MORRIS: Do you see this as an ongoing job for you? JEZ: No, I don’t [chuckles]. MORRIS: So are you done with it now? Women in the Commercial Fishing Industry Research Collection Center for Pacific Northwest Studies Western Washington University Bellingham WA 98225-9123 Katrina Jez Interview 5 JEZ: I think I’ll be done with it, other than just goin’ up maybe for one month or something like that during our peak season. MORRIS: Did you feel like this was a good way to spend time with your boyfriend more than a real job? How did you feel when you first started it? JEZ: I actually thought it was a good way to earn a living. It was nice that, you know, we didn’t have to be apart during that time. MORRIS: Have you ever felt like there was any danger or that kind of thing with fishing? JEZ: Um, fishing can be very dangerous. Um, fortunately the person I worked for was very cautious about keeping his equipment in good working order so that things wouldn’t be breaking. But you’re dealing a lot of hydraulics. You’re dealing with lots of speed. You’re dealing with a lot of, um, weight. And when lines come tight they can snap. When they snap they can fly into you, into your face, push you overboard. Uh, seining is not one of the most dangerous fisheries. I think crabbing is the most dangerous fisheries. Plus, you’re working in all the icy conditions. In seining you’re working in the summers. The water’s a little bit calmer, but you do get some windy days. Um, as far as safety goes, I guess it depends on your mind. It’s part of the stress of fishing – you need to be watching to make sure of what other crewmembers are doing and where they are in the boat, so that you don’t hurt someone else and that someone isn’t neglectful and send something flying your way. MORRIS: Did you ever experience a feeling of community with the fishermen? JEZ: Very strong. I think that’s one of the most important things I like about it. There’s a strong sense of community. A lot of people will stop fishing to come help someone out whose net is caught or whose engine is down, even though they’ve only got, you know, maybe thirteen hours to fish that day. Maybe they’re only getting 20 days to fish the whole season. They’ll stop to help someone out. MORRIS: Did you ever get together with other women who were up there? JEZ: Oh yeah [chuckles]. That’s real important. MORRIS: So you didn’t have to miss that, being the only woman? JEZ: No. Men couldn’t stand that, though. There’d be six of us sitting together at a table talking and having nothing to do with all the men around us [laughter]. MORRIS: So there’s a fun aspect to fishing? Women in the Commercial Fishing Industry Research Collection Center for Pacific Northwest Studies Western Washington University Bellingham WA 98225-9123 Katrina Jez Interview 6 JEZ: Well, seining yeah, because you’re working two days on and two days off. When you go to town you dance, you know. You go out, you go hiking, you have your days off and you can play. MORRIS: What about weather? JEZ: Summer in Alaska isn’t that bad, but I guess I probably have been in some twelvefoot seas, fifty mile per hour winds. Um, if you have your net out in anything over thirty knot winds, you’re going to have a little trouble getting it back. I’ve been in out in swells on the coast where you’re following a boat and you can’t see the boat in front of you because it dips down into the bottom of a swell while you’re in the bottom of another one. MORRIS: Did you say you ran the skiff too? JEZ: I ran the skiff in Puget Sound, not in Alaska. Well, just a few days in Alaska. That was my favorite job. I think that was probably the best job for a woman [laughter]. MORRIS: Oh really? Why is that? JEZ: Because you’re – uh - once you’ve learned fishing- because it’s not physically demanding. But it is mentally demanding and, uh, it’s because you’re always working. But it gives you a lot of freedom to get out, away from the boat and you actually do proper fishing because you’re watching the fish as they’re coming in. MORRIS: How long are you in the skiff when you - ? JEZ: Uh, the net’s out for about twenty minutes. So you’re in the skiff for twenty minutes while the net’s out and then the hauling- in gear takes about twenty, twenty- five minutes and you’re in the skiff at that time and quite often you’ll bring the skiff around to the back of the boat and the boat will go and make another stop. So you can end up in the skiff all day. Whereas other crewmembers, except for the skipper, other crewmembers get to rest fo r those twenty minutes while the net’s out if they’re not repairing something or cooing a meal or working in the engine room. MORRIS: Did you run the boat, too? JEZ: Uh, yeah when it’s traveling. MORRIS: What would you say is probably the best experience that you ever had fishing? JEZ: I’d have to say, as we talked about the sense of community before, I think that, over and all, was a good experience. But then a day when you catch a lot of fish and you load a boat and, uh, you know, the crew did it together it’s sort of a euphoric feeling that everyone worked together so well to have a wonderful, successful day. Women in the Commercial Fishing Industry Research Collection Center for Pacific Northwest Studies Western Washington University Bellingham WA 98225-9123 Katrina Jez Interview 7 MORRIS: What would you say is the worst? JEZ: The worst experience? First year fishing, um, not really knowing what to expect the next day, the very beginning of the season, uh, finally delivering the catch for the day, thinking you’re going to get to go to your bunk and sleep for a normal – what, six hours, eight hours?- but then finding the boat going out of the harbor and into the ocean and you’re going to be setting the net into about fifteen minutes. That’s probably the worst [laughter]. MORRIS: The lack of sleep [laughter]. Did you ever get used to that? JEZ: Yeah. You know, you learn to develop – some people do, some people don’t. I learned to fall asleep very quickly. And now, you know, if somebody calls me at three o’clock in the morning I don’t get upset. I just wake up and talk to them. ‘Cause it doesn’t last that long. It’s only for two months and it has to end. MORRIS: What about Alaska? Did you like being up there? JEZ: I have to say, Alaska is beautiful in the summer. There are days traveling where the – there’s an area around Juneau where the glaciers float and, um, between the beautiful turquoise ice and the days when you’d see whales – all the sea life and the beautiful Alaska sunsets… It’s a wonderful way to get to experience Alaska. MORRIS: You went hiking you said? JEZ: Mmm hmm. You know, you’d see brown bears on the beach, seeing all the eagles. I think, for the most part, a lot of fishermen are involved with the fishing because they do really appreciate – they are really involved with the natural world. You can’t help but be because it’s a great part of your life. MORRIS: I’ve heard that there’s a lot of efforts up in southeast [Alaska] to restock the fisheries and the fishermen are contributing to those efforts. Do you know anything about that? JEZ: Um, I don’t know about the new efforts. I do know that part of our, uh, income every year – three percent - goes to, um - what’s the word for it? – fisheries management, basically, enhancement programs, to work towards getting the hatcheries more productive. I don’t really want to get into the politics of fishing, though, because it is kind of complicated. MORRIS: Is that just in Alaska – that program with the three percent? JEZ: The enhancements? I don’t know what’s being done down here. Puget Sound’s a different area. There’s not – you do see quite a lot of dwindling of the fish population here in the Puget Sound area. In Alaska it just kinda seems to come and go. You know, you get a cold winter and freeze some eggs and the next season, you know, down the line Women in the Commercial Fishing Industry Research Collection Center for Pacific Northwest Studies Western Washington University Bellingham WA 98225-9123 Katrina Jez Interview 8 that would match with that cold winter, you would see lots of fish. Um, it seemed like they would go up and down. What the fishermen talked most about is trying to get rid of the driftnet fishing because at this point there’s driftnet fishing by Taiwanese, Koreans, um, Japanese, no matter what other flag they were flying their ship under- it may not be the Japanese flag but they’d be supported by Japanese. Um, they’re catching silvers that are two pounds. Well, given another couple of months, those same silvers are going to be four to six pounds. It’s a waste of a resource to catch something that in two months is going to be at least doubled in size. MORRIS: So you’re talking about the offshore, the big, giant - ? JEZ: Yeah, the big thirty-mile- long nets stacked one on top of the other. MORRIS: I guess part of my point is do you think that fishermen are still responsible for keeping that resource going? You didn’t really want to get into politics, but - ? JEZ: I don’t know. As far as the most visible thing that I saw in six years, at the beginning in 1986 people just threw their garbage overboard. You’d see plastic – it was just common practice to throw plastic overboard because you just couldn’t save all the stuff on the deck because it would be getting in the way of fishing. So you were just told to throw it overboard. And by the last year I was fishing, people were not even throwing cans overboard. Which, you know, cans in the ocean would probably only be there two or three years if they were exposed to enough salt. But, uh, very, very little garbage going overboard. And there are going to be those fishermen who are going to always throw garbage overboard but those that are in the middle range – I think those were the ones that were- a great deal of improvement. They were able to see that the beaches were littered with bottles. MORRIS: So there’s at least a raised consciousness about - ? JEZ: Yeah, I think so. MORRIS: Did you always work for the same cannery? JEZ: The canner’s name changed but it was basically the same cannery. MORRIS: And which was that? JEZ: Um, Whitney-Fidalgo changed to Far West changed to Trident. MORRIS: Are there any words of wisdom you would want to give to somebody – especially a woman – who wanted to go fishing? JEZ: To a woman who wanted to go fishing… Well, first of all, I guess if there’s an opening on a boat and they act like they really want ya, be sure and check them out because there’s a good chance there’s a reason why there’s an opening on a boat. The Women in the Commercial Fishing Industry Research Collection Center for Pacific Northwest Studies Western Washington University Bellingham WA 98225-9123 Katrina Jez Interview 9 really good boats are not going to have real easy openings. So the best advice is to find openings on the boats, go ahead and talk to people on the docks. That’s a way to get the job is to spend time around the fishermen. But to, uh, once you find an opening, go talk to a couple of – at least a couple of skippers and ask them what they think of that person because, ge nerally, everybody knows everybody. MORRIS: When you say you’ve heard of women having problems on boats, what kind of problems? JEZ: There’s a case where the skipper on the boat didn’t have a great deal of respect for women. Although he did tell her he respected her for being good at nets, he did tell her that he had ever had doing the nets – doing the repairs on the nets. As far as, uh, how she was treated, she was treated more like a servant for his boys in that she had to get up at four in the morning and cook breakfast and, uh, there wasn’t a lot of sharing of the cleaning duties. It was kind of expected that she would do it. And being that that was her first year fishing, she didn’t know the different ways that other boats worked. And when you went down there were different ways that everyone could cook and can clean up and, you know, not just that you’re tied to the kitchen stove the whole duration of your summer. And, uh, I think that that would probably be the worse – a lack of respect and the fact that he was his own person, he was an alcoholic and that caused some problems, too. MORRIS: Do you think, in general – you said there was raised consciousness about the environment and problems with that – do you think there’s also more awareness of, like you said, drinking problems, and things that people traditionally have thought of when they think of fishermen in port? JEZ: Yeah. Uh, that’s a tough question. I think there are a lot of people who fish because there’s a certain freedom – it’s a short season and when you see fishermen in town and during the winter, they are different people than they are on the boats. They don’t really know what they’re like on the boats when they’re working compared to what they see in town. They can be two different, very different, people. Um, insurance rates may be affecting the amount of time that skippers spend in town because of the problems that can happen in town and because of the laws that, as a skipper, you’re covering your person no matter what they’re doing while they’re up in Alaska. If they’re drunk and fall down on the dock you can be sued, for the rest of the season, if they break their leg – even if you told them not to get drunk. You know, maybe some skippers are not going to be spending as much time in town if they’re having some problems with their crewmembers. MORRIS: When you got together with other women up there what did you do? What did you talk about? JEZ: Probably men [laughter]. MORRIS: How they behave, or - ? Women in the Commercial Fishing Industry Research Collection Center for Pacific Northwest Studies Western Washington University Bellingham WA 98225-9123 Katrina Jez Interview 10 JEZ: Yeah yeah. I think it’s more of just a blowing off of steam a little bit. But just like any other fishermen, you talk about the good catches, a good day or the bad day, um, you talk about what you were doing during the winter, what you’ve learned, what you’ve read. MORRIS: Did you often see the same women there every year? JEZ: Yeah, there’s probably a group of about five or six women that are on the boats that you see. You know, and then there are women who are the skipper’s wives and they’re older couples and you don’t see the m because the couple will tend to stay on the boat and just send their younger crew to town. MORRIS: So you were saying that on some boats the woman wouldn’t realize that the cooking duties, the cleaning, et cetera could be shared? Is that the way it was then on your boat? JEZ: Yeah, on our boat when I got to town – I didn’t cook every year. I only cooked three years. And I purposefully didn’t start out cooking because I wanted to learn the engineering and I wanted to learn the net work and if I was in the kitchen – I figured I knew how to cook, I knew I didn’t have any problem with that [laughter]. But in the end it worked out to be – because I was more particular about what I ate – and where the guys, they’d just be cooking grease and gravy and I would be more conscientious about cooking vegetables and preparing food a little bit better because I think my own particular tastes led me to cooking more than the fact that the job was this or that. MORRIS: But nobody expected you to - ? JEZ: Well, that’s the thing, too, you know. It helped a lot having people on the boat who had been on boats before, that they understood that, you know, at night each person took turns washing dishes and if you cooked you didn’t have to wash dishes at night because you had washed dishes all day long. Um, in town, you know, people pretty much would go their separate ways. Maybe we’d barbeque a fish together. One person would make a salad, one would cook a fish and that was, you know, a nice way to work it. It made more of a family atmosphere. MORRIS: Were all the crew members from Bellingham? JEZ: Um, the ones that I worked with mo stly, or the surrounding areas within an hour’s drive of Bellingham. MORRIS: So did you see them during the year other than - ? JEZ: No, that’s the thing about fishing is you rarely, um, see the people during the winter. We’re like a moving city in the summer – you’d see people, you’re friends with them. That’s one of the things you do when you get back in the summer is you go around and see everybody, you know, you didn’t see for eight months. So that’s part of it. I guess Women in the Commercial Fishing Industry Research Collection Center for Pacific Northwest Studies Western Washington University Bellingham WA 98225-9123 Katrina Jez Interview 11 that’s a little lonely because you get back and all these friendships you’ve developed you don’t have until again the next year. MORRIS: So it really wasn’t a matter of having a tight friendship all along. It was definitely a fishing relationship. JEZ: Mmm hmm. Um, I mean, you might see them. You know, maybe they’ll have a party or a wedding and there’ll be something that you go to but you wouldn’t see them other than if you were around the docks working on the nets or at something that didn’t involve fishing. Yeah, and then there’s fall fishing but you only go out a couple of days a week. Then you go home. You’re not staying out. It’s a different kind of community because then there’s Seattle people kind of fishing and everybody spreads out more whereas in Alaska you’re more, as a group, together. MORRIS: And that fall fishing you do where? JEZ: Um, it’s in Puget Sound, you know, around Edmonds, Kingston, Hood Canal. You can go up to Roberts Point up neat Blaine. MORRIS: Where do you keep your boat in the winter? JEZ: Uh, in Bellingham. You’ll find people with boats in Bellingham, Everett, Seattle. [END OF SIDE A] [SIDE B] MORRIS: Was there anything else you wanted to say about being on boats? JEZ: Well, I think, as far as – you had asked earlier about women being on boats and if they should do it as a job and I think physically, uh, a woman can do it. I don’t think there’s a problem there with the hydraulics and the changing – I don’t think that’s a problem. I think you need to look at yourself and decide whether yo u can be on a small boat with four or five other people for two months. That can be a real problem. I think all people, by the end of the season, are ready to go home and get away from their other crewmates. Um, and each boat’s different, has different personalities. I think you should spend some time traveling around the dock, meeting the skippers, meeting the people and try to find a boat most closely suited to your likes and desires. The food can change, the attitudes toward women can change and I think it’s important to find some people that you are comfortable working with because you are with them for so many hours and it makes your life a lot easier, it’d make for a much nicer summer experience. MORRIS: And you said something about maybe fall fishing would be a good - ? JEZ: Yeah, fall fishing would be a good way to get an idea of what the work is like. You could go out for two days with someone and yo u wouldn’t be committed. And you could Women in the Commercial Fishing Industry Research Collection Center for Pacific Northwest Studies Western Washington University Bellingham WA 98225-9123 Katrina Jez Interview 12 just go out for two days and that would be it, you wouldn’t need to go out again with them if you didn’t want to. Could see how the net works, how the crew works, how the crew works together. MORRIS: You know, in one of my previous interview someone made a comment about, um, work styles they thought of as women on boats where sometimes people fit in as stereotypes – “one of the boys ”, the “mom”, or something like that. Do you feel like anything like that exists? JEZ: Oh, I think so but I still think it’s—you’re who you are. Um, I mean they even tease skippers about being the dad and then they act like little kids sometimes as crewmembers. But I think if you just don’t keep it up, like don’t pick up after them and do the things that a mom would do then you don’t fall into that stereotype so easily. MORRIS: So act like yourself? JEZ: Act like yourself and spend some time, like we do, talking to women on other boats, finding out how they’re treated. It’s really more about how to assert yourself and do your job. MORRIS: Unless you have anything else, I think that will do it. Thank you! [END OF TAPE] Women in the Commercial Fishing Industry Research Collection Center for Pacific Northwest Studies Western Washington University Bellingham WA 98225-9123
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Title: Melissa Sweet interview
Date: 2016-02-25
Description: Melissa Sweet is an awarding illustrator of children's literature.
Digital Collection: PoetryCHaT Oral History Collection
Type of resource: text
Object custodian: Special Collections
Related Collection: PoetryCHaT Collection
Local Identifier: SweetMelissa_20160225
Text preview (might not show all results): Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections PoetryCHaT Melissa Sweet ATTENTION: © Copyright Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. "Fair use" criteria o
Show moreWestern Washington University Libraries Special Collections PoetryCHaT Melissa Sweet ATTENTION: © Copyright Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. "Fair use" criteria of Section 107 of the Copyright Act of 1976 must be followed. The following materials can be used for educational and other noncommercial purposes without the written permission of Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. These materials are not to be used for resale or commercial purposes without written authorization from Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. All materials cited must be attributed to Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. ST: We are now recording, and this is an oral history with Melissa Sweet, who is here as a presenter for the 2016 WWU Children’s Literature Conference. We’re going to talk about illustrating poetry, and what that process is, and the different aspects of your work. So, there’s many different kinds of directions to start out. I was curious, again, about the process of collage in your work. I was looking at You Nest Here With Me, and I was noticing the 1907 snippet of paper, and I thought that was, I thought, is there a story behind that, 1907, or how does that fit? MS: That is interesting because someone I know in my town had a collection of entomological--what is the word I want? ST: Mm-hmm. MS: And it was bugs. What is that word? NJ: Yes, that’s it, entomology. MS: Entomology. So these were Canadian newsletters. There are maybe 25 of them. And they had -the covers were this gorgeous green paper. And I used them in the collage. ST: It was on the owl page. MS: Yes, all these. So,, the date has really nothing to do with anything, but there was something about them being about bugs that I thought was somehow fine to be with the birds, and it was the color of the paper that really interested me. And if you were going to read them for content, you might find a bug word in there, which would be fine, too. So that was it. It was about color. And this particular paper takes paint really well, so that was another reason. ST: And you knew that ahead of time, or you discovered that or? Melissa Sweet Edited Transcript -- February 25, 2016 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 1 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections MS: I guess I knew it on some level. I started playing with it and it worked, so I just went with it. But in a book like this, I’m looking at limiting the materials so it’s not the sky’s the limit. It’s okay, what is the palette and what is the type of paper that I want to use in this book? And this has some dark papers in the tree trunk, and there’s not -- Oh, so here’s more of that bug paper. We’ll call it bug paper. ST: This is the robin page. MS: This is the catbird, yes. And so here it is to make the buildings, it worked. When I find a collage material like that, like those periodicals, then I try to pepper it throughout the book. And I’m just looking to see if I did anywhere else. Oh, that’s probably the same paper. So, that’s the feeling I want, that it’s not for one page, but it’s a feature of the book, and I just go with it. NJ: So talk about when you got this manuscript, do you get it typed up? How do you receive it? And then how do you transmediate, whatever the term, this piece into something that’s visual? MS: Well, this -- I’m not remembering if this came to me as a typed up manuscript or they said, page one, this; page two, three, this... Sometimes they break it up, but this had a very obvious break. And I think we fussed around with the front matter a little bit to make it a lead into the story. And there had to be -- so in this case -- That’s a great question actually. In this case, we had Jane and Heidi’s text, but we had to give them, these birds, a life. What does it mean that pigeons nest on concrete ledges, catbirds nest in green hedges? Did they need to relate at all? Not really, but they’re going to be opposite each other, so I’m already thinking about that. And concrete ledges, I think of a city, so it’s a little bit of an urban landscape, leading into another urban landscape. And so those are the sorts of things I’m figuring out pretty early on - the text is informing me. I have to think about how I’m going to render these birds. I’m not Audubon, but I also don’t want it to look so loose you wouldn’t know what the bird is. It’s for a medium-old kid -- I mean, it’s not for a four year old -- oh, I guess it is for a four year old. So I guess it’s fairly young. But still, I wanted them to be recognizable. The front matter, “My little nestling, time for bed. Climb inside, you sleepyhead,” who is this? Is this the father and his son? Where do they live? Are there going to be more than just a parent and a child? Are there going to be other kids in the scene? So all those questions come up right away. Part of it is about design, and it worked out better that the mother was talking, or a parent was talking, to one child rather than more than one, because she asks some questions, and you wouldn’t know if you just read it aloud who was asking what. The bedroom scene needs to be decided on, and everything that had to do with birds, I brought in as much as I could. Oftentimes I give a child a little mascot, so she had the baby owl. And that is nice because it can be carried through the book, and it works great to have another visual element like that. And then when the book was over, we put that. NJ: I wondered when you did that. MS: Yes. Well, yes, it just made sense. That was fun. ST: So the bed is a nest here? MS: Exactly. She’s drawing birds, she has birds on her wall. Melissa Sweet Edited Transcript -- February 25, 2016 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 2 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections NJ: So when you said you read through it and you came up with ideas, do you sketch first? Do you sketch in your head first? Do you make thumbnails for a book like this, where it’s literally a story poem? MS: Yes. Well, I start by making -- we decide on the trim size. Some publishers say this is the trim size. Some say -- and I’m sure it’s negotiable, but sometimes it feels like it works. So if I have the trim size, I usually make a smaller version of it. And I do it really old fashioned. I take the text and I just tape it down with double stick tape, and I start to make this funky little dummy that is very crude, but you already want to feel the page turns. Then I might do the whole thing that I can look at it once, so it’s more like a big storyboard. It’s not technically a storyboard, but it’s all one piece of paper, and I have every page up there, and I’m able to start to see, are we going to close in on a bird, or are we pulling back? It’s like a little movie, and -- I probably do five or six or seven different versions of that as one is very crude, and then they start to get tighter and tighter until I give something to the publisher. But my dummies are notoriously loose, and they have to have a lot of trust that they’re going to get something decent. And of course they know my final art, so, they do trust me. NJ: Right. Had you worked with this team before? MS: I had not worked with Jane and Heidi, but I had done the Baby Bear series with Jane: Baby Bear’s Books, Baby Bear’s Chairs, Baby Bear’s Big Dreams. The story behind this book was that it was about ten years between the time they sold it once to the time it came out, because it changed hands and ended up with Liz Van Doren. So I came on it new. I had no idea that it had been around. And one of the fun parts too, was researching their nests. The architecture of the nests is so interesting, and that was a big part of it. NJ: That would have been a question I would have asked earlier today is, for a book like this, you’re illustrating a poem -- You just said research. What kind of research do you do in illustrating a poem? And then let’s also bring that question eventually over to the kind of research to a book like this. MS: Okay. So that was another thing I did almost immediately when I got the manuscript -- I basically go online or go to the library and get, make a list of every bird I need, and then go research it. And the good thing about that, is that when I did the tiny wrens and shoreline hedges, what does a shoreline hedge -- sedge, sorry, look like. This bird has a particularly fascinating nest where she gathers up the grasses, and then the grasses are intertwined to make this nest that must just flow in the breeze. It’s so beautiful. So immediately, I’m going to riff off that idea of these wonderful big pieces of natural materials poking up near a body of water. The body of water isn’t so important, but the previous page shows a city, and we’re pulling back and making sure we’re leaving. And what do we find next? I’m not sure. Let’s see, I’ve got to find it myself. Okay. So, this child is going to bed, and we talked earlier on about the book would close in darkness. So here, I’m just intimating a little bit of night sky coming on. The research -- every bird has such a different way of making a nest or raising their young, or their eggs, etc. But it doesn’t have to be so technical. It doesn’t have to be, this one uses willow branches, and this one uses cedars. It just, close enough, to make it feel like that bird’s nest. And that bird -- I mean, grackles are just shimmering with color and light, and that’s hard to capture, so you just make it kind of grackly. NJ: Roget would like that line. Melissa Sweet Edited Transcript -- February 25, 2016 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 3 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections MS: Yes. ST: And the reds and the pinks and the greens -MS: That’s what, like what I showed you today. ST: -- there they are! Absolutely. Really, they’re everywhere. I was just looking back at this page as well. I was just looking at some of the, where, you know, it’s there. MS: Yes, yes, yes. ST: It’s there -- this is more orange, but there’s that little rose and green again. MS: -- that is true. It’s true. And yet, without knowing that, it feels sort of, to my eye, it feels sort of right. And I think it lightens the water. It keeps the watercolor fresh and translucent, transparent. So the research is not so in-depth like another book, the way The Right Word is so in-depth, but it has to be in-depth enough so that you have something to work with. And a book like this it’s not -- well, it is nonfiction. It’s not hardcore nonfiction, but it’s the truth. This is what -- it’s not a photographic rendering, but it’s the truth. NJ: So when you do that research, I imagine in some ways it’s like an education you never had in school. Do you ever do those, Oh wow, I didn’t know that? MS: Oh, that is a very great observation because I have always been acutely aware that I had two years of college and then another little bit, and after that I just wanted to take off and do what I wanted to do, when I wanted to do it. I guess that’s maybe why I felt E. B. White was such a good fit, because -- And what’s mesmerizing to me is that, what was I thinking about when I was in school? I have so little memory of it, but this work -- it’s like you get a Ph.D. with every book, that it’s quite remarkable. It’s -- I think it’s promising that even if we’re not great students or we can’t sustain that kind of learning, we learn in a different way. ST: Well, mention the art show again that you watched Saturday mornings. MS: Oh my gosh, yes. ST: You were talking about that. You were riveted to -NJ: It was Saturday morning. MS: Yes, I know. NJ: Other kids are watching cartoons. MS: Right, right. Well, also remember, this was around 19--, the earlier 1960s. There were only so many tv shows existing. And so there were a lot of filler shows. This could have, for all I know, could have been a filler show. I mean, he didn’t have the kind of Howdy Doody rep -- you know, this is Bob (Jon) Melissa Sweet Edited Transcript -- February 25, 2016 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 4 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections Gnagy It’s not like the Mickey Mouse Club, which we also watched religiously. But he just showed us what he did, and showed us in a way that we could mimic it. And I wouldn’t say my brothers were as interested as I was, but. NJ: That’s the other piece. So it spoke to you. MS: Yes. NJ: But your bird -- excuse me. Okay, it’s right here. So we go back to the Bob Gnagy show, there it is. MS: Oh yes! NJ: What you did earlier today, and there’s this bird. MS: Yes, there’s the bird made from simple -ST: Oval and the shapes and the triangles. NJ: Yes, you’ve got them, right there. MS: Exactly. NJ: So you researched nests, you researched birds. Anything else for this kind of a book? MS: I want to know a little bit about a landscape if I need to. I researched telephone poles, so I knew where that nest would go. And of course the babies had to be pretty accurate. And there were different ages. Some are older than others. I mean, baby birds all look very, very similar when they’re little, and then -- so, would you have a baby robin look like a tiny robin? Probably a little more Dr. Seussy than this, but it’s the idea. And here you can see this is where the piece was photographed and the shadow in it. So yes -- and here’s sticks, and those little papers again, so we brought -- everything’s kind of carried through. It’s fun to end the book with a night sky. It always is. And then just enough nonfiction. NJ: Who did this? MS: This, well I didn’t write this. This was a plan, the plan from the beginning, so I drew the bird, the feather, the nest, and it was put together at the publisher. I don’t know if you knew that Jane Yolen’s late husband was an ornithologist. ST: She mentions that. MS: Oh, she does mention it in the author note? Oh yeah, that makes sense. NJ: So difference then. This is a different kind of book. MS: Totally different kind of book. NJ: Research for something -- Melissa Sweet Edited Transcript -- February 25, 2016 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 5 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ST: Firefly July. MS: Oh, this was such an interesting story because this came right after -- well, it came right in the middle of Roget. I told you this story, did I already? NJ: Not to the tape player. MS: Okay. MS: So I was working on Roget, or The Right Word. It was going okay but it felt very heavy, and I knew that something had to give in order for kids to really fall in love with him, and I needed to fall in love with him in a different way. It was probably March 1, and this book, Firefly July, was due in April, and we all try the best we can to get things in on time, and that doesn’t always happen. Books are shifted all the time. But I remember saying to my husband at dinner, Well, I’m in a pickle. I either ask them to move it when Roget is done, and when that will be I don’t really know, or I stop everything I’m doing, pack up, and begin Firefly July. And I had a very cursory dummy. It was hardly anything. So my husband said, Well, I think you’ve got to do it. What are you going do? You can’t put them off forever. So I called the art director for The Right Word, and I said, I’m just going to, full disclosure here, I’ll call it straight, I need to set this aside for at least a month, maybe a few weeks after, but let’s say a month and I’ll get right back to Roget. And something really shifted. I spent about two hours cleaning my studio that morning, got everything, all the surfaces were clean, and I looked at the book and I said, Okay, there’s however many spreads. I’ll do one spread a day. That’s a month, and I need a couple more days after that, and I think I can do it. And so I felt like it was -- I sometimes in this situation, I say to myself, What would Picasso do? What would Alexander Calder do? Calder would not worry about this. He would get to it. He’d start snipping paper, gluing things down. He wouldn’t make a big deal about it. And I thought this book needed that kind of freshness. And one of the things I noticed early on, and I asked permission to do this, was that Paul had arranged these poems through the season, so what if we start out indicating spring, summer, fall, and winter, and it’d be nice to end with spring at the beginning, fall originally the ending. That’s nice, already a nice format. But we say the word of the season within the art, so that if you catch that, great, and if you don’t it, great. It’s not part of any poem. And I started with those four pieces, and that punctuated the book, because I had a lot of freedom around those four pieces, and it was like anything goes. This is my book to have fun with. And once I did that, I started going in between. So I went in between spring and summer, and as I told you, I had decided that some of the materials -- one of the materials would be paper bags. Another was tissue paper. You can see some tissue paper in there. And then I think I just cut this guy out of, this seagull out of white paper and put it on a background. So I wanted it to feel very modern and a little bit abstract and just fresh like the poems. The poems were so short but rich. I wanted the poems and the art to reflect that. ST: Did the poems come paired on the spread -MS: Yes, they did. ST: So you had those? MS: Exactly, I had that. Melissa Sweet Edited Transcript -- February 25, 2016 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 6 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ST: And which ones were single poems, window here is on its own -- versus other poems that have two poems on the spread? MS: I might have had a little bit of permission to change that, but I don’t think I did. ST: Can you talk a little bit more about modern? You said you wanted to make it modern. That’s kind of interesting, in terms of how you define that. MS: Yes, that’s a good question. Well, I do look at a tremendous amount of contemporary art, and I’m very fond of the modernist movement. And much of my work is divided in a very grid-like way, like some of the paintings that we see that were done, collage artists did, I’ll think of names as we’re going along. So, how I divide the page and the boldness of certain shapes. ST: Well this is spread here -- this “Subway Rush Hour” and “A Happy Meeting,” there’s so many different things on, close up, far away, inside. You can just hear this shoe going -MS: The mud squishing. ST: You know, that big sucking sound -- when she’s lifting up -- and just the different pieces. MS: What connects these pieces is the palette. So, that was a deliberate choice, all these colors here -we’re seeing in her boot, in the wheels and the boot really. I wanted this to show the diversity of a subway in New York City or whatever city you are, that’s where subways are. And this mattered less, but there’s a lot of people walking on the sidewalk as if it would be a city. It might have to do with how I use paint and the shapes and the way I cut the collage, that it’s very immediate, and the painting informs me as much as anything. So I begin and I say, What does this need, and where do I need a little bit of texture? Where do I need a little bit of depth? And I go back in. I decide very little before I start, because there’s no real way, to my mind, to plan a collage. That’s kind of the beauty of a collage is you just sort of begin, and sometimes just gluing something down, just glue down some brown paper and see what happens, and start to draw. ST: What’s this little bit here, on the bottom of her boots? Do you remember what -- it’s so interesting looking. It looks like a little rickrack kind of thing, but it isn’t. MS: Well, that’s cut -- It’s paper. It’s a green paper that’s cut with a scallop scissor -- and it didn’t take the paint very well, which was great because it had that sort of sucking sound -ST: Serendipity again, right? MS: Yes, exactly. NJ: Trust, trust what can happen, right? MS: Mm-hmm, really, that is what collage is about, really trusting what can happen. NJ: So, go back to -- okay, you can talk about research, but I’m curious now. There you have one story poem, almost. Melissa Sweet Edited Transcript -- February 25, 2016 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 7 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections MS: Yes. NJ: Here you have individual poems. So do you read them out loud? How do you -- what do you do with the poem before you play with -MS: Wow, that’s a great question. Do I read it out loud? I probably do read it out loud because I’m by myself and I do tend to do that. But, when I read these poems, a lot of times, especially in something like Firefly July, it brought me back to childhood in a big way. We collected fireflies on a summer night. What did that feel like? We were at the Jersey Shore, with sandpipers running, and we had just been to Sanibel with the sandpipers, and I remember watching them flit. So one of the things I used was this little dotted line, and it’s used throughout the book, but that was a feeling of flit, the feeling, right? So it could be rain, it could be -ST: It’s the rain in “A Happy Meeting,” it’s those dotted lines. It’s here on the little orange cat. It’s everywhere. MS: So that’s -- first of all, it has a lot of feeling of movement, immediately, just the nature of a dotted line. So that’s partly why it works. It showed up in some of the papers I used. So, in a book like this, it’s not only my interpretation of what it felt like to be at the shore, the colorful blankets and just monotone of the colors of the beach, but also the materials in the book get carried through. So if I get stuck, I can turn to something like that. What have I not used lately in the book? Even this is brown paper, the roof of the building, it just went green. I just made it blue. ST: In Firefly July. MS: You see a little bit underneath. NJ: Any poem you had to do different kind of work for, either as research or that stumped you, or that you just couldn’t get right? MS: The painting of the window of the train -ST: Back in the subway? MS: Yes, so -- no, a window. I love trains, and I had not long before doing this book, I had been on a train from Boston to New York, and I love that feeling of it’s almost like a movie screen, like that kind of ch-ch-ch-ch, that feeling of scenes going by. And you know, there’s towns and the ocean, cityscapes. Here’s the ocean. So this really reflected that trip, in my memory. I didn’t take pictures of it. And I must have done this piece four times. The trick was that I thought it would be very loose and free, but you didn’t get the sense of -- you didn’t get what it felt like to be on a train and the shimmering of the windows. So I started out all different ways. I started out with a black piece of paper, and I tried putting pieces of paper on top of it that were the scenes. And eventually, I just felt, I don’t know, some scenes like this one, I just had such a reverence for it, that I needed to slow down and take it scene by scene. And of course they’re very linked, but I did a very slow watercolor, and it was so pleasurable. It’s my favorite piece in the book. Sometimes the ones that you struggle with the most are the ones that end up -- you work on, and the trick is to have it be the most fresh piece in the book, even though you’ve Melissa Sweet Edited Transcript -- February 25, 2016 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 8 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections done it four times. You just keep approaching it with that in mind, that you’re going to be so careful and present to how you’re painting it. You have to be aware of what you’re doing. NJ: I’m so reminded, especially when you talk about window, and some of the words you’re saying, reverence, slow down, every piece matters, that’s like writing a poem. MS: Yes. Every word matters. NJ: Right. So I wonder if you’ve ever thought about the kind of work you do as poetry. MS: Wow. I don’t think I ever thought about that. I think of it, because I do it every day, and when you’ve done something as long as I’ve been doing this, you have to come to it every morning like it’s the first time you ever did it. Because if you don’t, it’s not going to feel -- that respect for the materials, it just isn’t there. I don’t know if, I don’t know quite how to describe it. ST: So you have 18 pictures and 18 words here in this poem. MS: No! ST: I’m just counting it. I didn’t prepare that. I just did it right now. MS: I didn’t know! That is very amazing. ST: That’s at another realm we’re entering. MS: Well maybe it is. I suppose if you put this away -- they’re in a -- somebody, one child -NJ: It’s a visual poetry. MS: -- a child who was here for the program said, Well, how do you start? Do you know? Because I do pictures and I do words. And I said, Some people do pictures and write a story to go with it, and some people write their story, and then they create the pictures, and sometimes it’s back and forth. But you could, I suppose, easily, especially in a book like this, cover up the words and write another poem for it. NJ: Or you paint the poem for it. MS: Or you paint the poem for it. But that idea that, being an author or illustrator or any of the arts. Twyla Tharp talks about this. Have you ever read anything by her, Twyla Tharp? So she goes into a room and she starts to move. And that is it. I feel that that’s about right. You have to come and approach it. Sometimes I think about, what if this was the last painting I ever got to do on the planet, for my lifetime? What would I bring to that? And that’s important because that needs to come through somehow, that this is the most important thing you ever did, I think. Otherwise there’s no point. I mean it’s easy to say that, not every day is ideal, but you do -ST: That’s the intent. MS: That’s the intent, exactly. NJ: Do you have any other poetry commissioned to illustrate right now? Melissa Sweet Edited Transcript -- February 25, 2016 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 9 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections MS: I’m working on a book about bugs right now, called Cricket in the Thicket, and Carol Murray, this is her first book. It’s sweet little poems in rhyme about lots of different kinds of bugs, so it’s a little bit like, You Nest Here With Me, in the playful nonfiction, I’d call it. NJ: Who’s publishing that? MS: Christy Ottaviano Books. NJ:So you’re working on that one right now? MS: I’m trying to think of the one, the book after that is not a poem, no. Poetry books are wonderful because, well, You Nest Here With Me is different in that it’s -- you’re creating a story behind it. With something like Firefly July or Cricket in the Thicket, each page is just its own fun invention. Oh, my poet, my poet, the poet of all poets, right? William Carlos Williams. Yes, this was an amazing experience for me. It was at a great time in my career because it was really important for me to swing out. I just said, I have to do this book. First of all, that decision began to unfold in doing the research, and it’s weighty business to illustrate a book by someone of his magnitude. And Jen did a beautiful job. But as I began, and it was just illustrated. It was just kind of reflecting on Jen’s text. Something had to give, otherwise it was just going to be very rote, and so what I thought about early on, when I first began sketching this out, what I really loved was his poems. Of course I loved Jen’s text, but it was the idea -these poems were part of the text, at first. I asked her and the editor and art director, What if that is what I’m illustrating is the poem, and I hand letter or reinterpret it as a piece of art? And so we figured if we put the poems on the end papers, and we were careful not to put it under the flap -ST: Thank you -MS: You’re welcome. ST: -- from a librarian’s perspective, where those books get -- they lose that end under the flap. MS: So as long as they were here, my interpretation, so long as it was readable, and not everybody loved this format. People said, Where are your eyes supposed to go? Well, that’s -- I’m okay with that. I’m okay with people finding their way and letting it be that whatever experience it is for them. Once again, it was about structure, because with Firefly July I had those four pieces. When I realized I could take the poems out of the text and place them on, each on their own page, then suddenly the book fell into place, because the looseness of this poem had to be part, had to be reflected here, and I had the book. I’m not saying it was super easy from there, but it gave me something to hang my hat on. And again, in my research, and maybe I already told you this, in my research, I kept coming across this incident, or this not incident but this time in William Carlos Williams’ life where he was very interested in modern art, and he had been to the 1913 Armory Show in New York City. He saw Duchamp and Matisse and Picasso, and this was when -- so this was like the introduction to abstract art for a lot of people. And he said, I want to write poems the way this art looks. We know that he didn’t write sonnets and he didn’t write in rhyme. He looked at objects, so that’s why he said that wonderful line, “no ideas but in things.” So it’s these manmade things, these creations of humans, that he was inspired Melissa Sweet Edited Transcript -- February 25, 2016 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 10 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections by, the bold plums, the wheelbarrow. What is that saying about us, or what is that saying? And that’s what he wrote about. NJ: It’s full circle. MS: It’s full circle. NJ: He was inspired by art -- the art of the everyday, in some cases, and then you’ve become inspired as the artist by his poems to create anew. MS: Exactly. NJ: Interesting. MS: So when his mother wants him to become a doctor, like the uncle, and he’s not -- so here he is of this spread, didn’t exist when Jen wrote the book, and I asked -- I mentioned this to everyone, I said, there is this moment in his life that feels so crucial to me. Can we have a spread about it? And so Jen added this, and so, Ezra Pound, Hilda Doolittle, all those people were part of his social life. And my relationship to this poem in particular, “The Figure 5 in Gold,” was because when I was a kid, and you’ll see this in my slideshow, I was mesmerized by Demuth’s painting of this poem when I was a kid. And so this book really was a departure for me, and also a full circle as a kid, coming back to this work was really amazing. So that was where the book jacket started to come in because I was working with my library on an altered book project, and I had all these books, and I thought, These are canvases. These are fabulous little -- they’re space holders. They’re beautiful. ST: Using books to make other books to make other books -MS: Perfectly valid. ST: So there’s this example here -- is this a photograph or did you get to keep one of those, or how do you get to have a William Carlos Williams’, like, script, -- paper? MS: That’s a great question, because it was exciting. I wasn’t a good researcher -- I shouldn’t say I wasn’t a good researcher -- I was learning how to research at this time. And when this book came around, I really didn’t know what to look for, but I knew he lived in Rutherford, New Jersey, and I called the public library. I wanted to see his house, which is almost across the street. And I said, Would you have any artifacts or anything I could see about William Carlos Williams? And they did. They had a little room set aside, and there was his typewriter and his bowler hat and examples of his handwriting and his doctor -- these were his doctor pads, and they Xeroxed one for me. And I’m not a fancy -- oh, how do I want to say this? If I’m going to reproduce something like this, I don’t do it in Photoshop. I just make copies on my Xerox machine. So I did it on old paper, and I think I might have added those lines, I can’t remember. But I think I added those red lines. They weren’t on his original. So, I had both. I had examples of his handwriting and I had his prescription, like his prescription pads, because we know that he wrote poems on his prescription pads. He’d pull over and when he felt a poem coming on, he wrote it down. Those were the kinds of things that I wanted to have in the book because it makes us feel who Melissa Sweet Edited Transcript -- February 25, 2016 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 11 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections he is more. If that wasn’t there, we might not even remember that we read it. But that visual I think makes it more real. And here he’s going -- he’s making house calls. That was going to be, that was such a -- I took that so seriously. Like I had to have people at the door and sick children, and none of that had to happen. All it meant was that he drove everywhere. And I think it’s an opportunity to say, What did a house call mean? Who makes house calls anymore? It’s just an opportunity to talk about what doctoring was like then. That looseness comes later, and when you have permission to do it. I own an old doctor’s ledger book, and it must have been more than one doctor was at this office, because it had these -- Look at those gorg-- those are all hand lettered throughout this ledger book. That is someone’s copperplate script. And so I filled in William Carlos Williams. But that kind of thing you cannot believe how many times that’s happened to me, that I have the perfect papers. And if I don’t have it, I don’t have it. So look at “Dr. Cash.” That was a beautiful old ledger book. NJ: Wow. MS: Yes, pretty lucky. NJ: So you do a lot of your font, your script, you create a lot of that yourself. MS: Mm-hmm, I do. NJ: Part of your signature, one of your signature pieces as an artist, I’d look at that and I could say, There’s Melissa’s fonts. But they’re not all the same, so how do -- where does that come from? How do you know what kind of font to create, like for this? MS: Oh gosh, that’s a great question. Sometimes it’s because I haven’t done it before or I haven’t done it in a while. We grow up learning how to write our name right away. We learn how to -- lettering is drawing. So we learn -- that is a form of drawing that we do. We don’t even think about it when we’re kids and we’re learning how to draw the alphabet. When I begin this, it doesn’t feel like it should be any certain way necessarily. Maybe I was thinking about the color or that it should be legible, but I give myself permission just to kind of have fun with it. And if there’s something, like maybe I wrote the word “sparrow” and it seemed to need a little orange, so I put that piece of paper down and wrote on top of it. I don’t remember how that happened, but I bet I wanted orange because opposite, there’s this orangey desk. And without it, it seemed a little flat. So I’m just looking at that right now. And it’s fun to look back at this and look at the decisions I made. It really is. I hadn’t looked at this in a long time. I like the little folded bit of paper and the little fake notebook papers. With the book I just did, the E. B. White book, there’s a lot of hand lettering in that too. But because he used a typewriter, a typewriter became more what I used, but there’s a lot of dropped caps, capital letters in it. I really like the way hand lettering looks with a piece, and it goes with collage, and these -- so this was kind of out of the blue. I found the word “is” and I said, Okay, why not have the word “is” the biggest word on the page. And if you squint and you look at it as a painting, it all works fine. So, the materials can also dictate where you begin. Melissa Sweet Edited Transcript -- February 25, 2016 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 12 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ST: But you are here for this one, the “This Is Just To Say Poem,” you are interpreting the poem in a way. The way you’re placing the sections -- it actually is encouraging a certain kind of reading with it. MS: Yes. ST: So I don’t know if that’s something that matters to you, or you’re thinking about that or not. MS: I do think about that. Maybe it’s just -- it’s a little bit intuitive to be honest with you, because I don’t stop and think, I’m going to break this, but I have to break it, somehow. So I think it’s a little bit more intuitive as if you were reading it aloud, maybe, a little bit. And also, I must have wanted, I must have had some -- maybe I just glued those papers down. Glued those papers down, yes, and decided to split up the poem in thirds. I don’t know. I don’t remember the decision behind it. But I know I wanted that ampersand, because I needed the black, I needed that bad. And it probably was “and,” not an ampersand, but I wanted it visually. “The Red Wheelbarrow” just made sense. I took an old -- I took a font and blew it up to make this. So this was all about the crafting of a poem. Because I must have read that he edited a lot. ST: Well you can see that’s what’s so lovely about this. “So much depends upon the wheelbarrow” -because there are so many iterations of that poem. MS: Yes. It’s just so curious to me when you see someone’s manuscripts, or you look, you go back to a historical society and you see someone -- what their papers and their manuscripts, and all the decisions they made and all the struggle and all the editing. It didn’t fly off anyone’s tongue. I don’t think. I’m sure Kwame talked about that -- that the crafting of it is what it all is. Which I think is overwhelming and exciting and encouraging, because everybody can, everybody can do it. ST: Well and a reader who loves a poem could get lost on this page, I think -- and read the same lines again and again. We think about that we’re reading. NJ: Yes, and you talked about slowing down. I mean, something like this, you can’t gulp. MS: Right, right. That’s a good way to look at it. NJ: It’s really intended to say, Take some time with this simple poem. MS: Yes. Even though we don’t know the background behind it. That doesn’t matter at all. Even though it’s fun to know the background sometimes. ST: Well when you’re piecing this, to get your collages piecing, and the poem is pieced, it’s just a lot of creative parts working together here. NJ: That’s pretty remarkable. It’s beautiful. What do you do with your work when you’re done? MS: Well, a lot of it is in my studio in big flat files. Some of it has gone to the Kerlan.There’s such a vast amount, it’s a little problematic. It’s -- something has to happen to it, eventually. NJ: So you dedicate it all to the Kerlan? Melissa Sweet Edited Transcript -- February 25, 2016 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 13 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections MS: No, I haven’t. I wouldn’t mind sometime selling some, I mean, if that happened. NJ: Do you still have this? MS: I have some of that. For some reason, I felt so exuberant after Firefly July, I gave a lot of people I worked with away. I just said, Paul, what piece do you want? ST: What a wonderful impulse. MS: No, the editor and the art director, everybody just -- it was just so fun, that we had so much fun, and the cover was so fun, and it just -- you have a great feeling behind it, and it was just -- That was a lot of art, too. NJ: And did you really do that in a month? MS: I really did it. I did what I said. I did a piece a day. But that was, again, not overdo it, just let it be what it was. NJ: And it feels. I mean, you get that. MS: Yes. NJ: Which is childlike in so many ways. MS: Yes. It’s a good thing to remember, that we can do art that way. Can I show you something -- in The Right Word? NJ: Yes. ST: Yes. MS: So here’s two doctors, right? And two doctors at two very different times in history. And Roget -- I really resisted this piece because I didn’t know how to do it, but that’s how Roget, what his stethoscope looked like. And in A River of Words, his stethoscope is much more in keeping with what we know as one to look like. Isn’t that interesting? But I didn’t know that. NJ: Part of your research then. MS: Yup. What did that look like? Just to make sure. And I thought, I’ll be darned, there you have it. ST: Well I think these books are very complimentary. And I do think that Roget -MS: Oh, that’s nice of you. ST: -- is part of poetry. It’s all about word choice, and I think, personally my experience when I read Roget, I thought, Oh my gosh, it’s elevated the thesaurus to a whole other level. Because the thesaurus Melissa Sweet Edited Transcript -- February 25, 2016 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 14 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections becomes something like -- it’s sort of the go-to when you can’t think of a word that you need. How do you say “many”? Plethora. NJ: You know what it means, but it’s another word. ST: It’s another word. But this book really, as I said, it just elevated this whole story of his life and his passion with list making, thinking in classification. I mean, as a librarian, ah, classification. MS: Of course. ST: The word selection and choices is crucial in all writing, but especially in poetry. MS: Yes. ST: You talk about that limited number of words that he really -NJ: And which is the right one here, right? ST: Which is the right word, yeah. NJ: Yes, the right word. MS: And how does it affect every other word in it? And truly, his first thesaurus, the classified one, not the one we know today, had all these phrases -- “black as thunder,” “white is the driven snow.” NJ: Maybe that’s simile and metaphor. It’s all right there. MS: It’s so beautiful. NJ: Because I look at these, and there’s a poem right on this page. MS: Exactly! That was when, I tell you, when that came in the mail, and I thought, oh, I just, I need to have this. I don’t know where I’m going to use it. And Jen said, It was classified like Linnaeus, and I opened up that book, I had to sit down. I was hyperventilating. I could not believe -- that was essential to do this book, and I didn’t know it. I mean, you work for so long kind of in the dark. You’re just shooting at -- you’re shooting in the dark. ST: Well this is reminiscent. You’ve been talking about modernist art, modern Twyla Tharp -- this, to look at this as a poem -- and that movement and the selection. It’s random and it’s select at the same time. This is darkness – night – dark – pitch - glimmer --NJ: I can hear Kwame read that. ST: It’s echoing what you were talking about earlier -- in terms of some of the artists were doing by acting against -- What is classical? MS: Right, right. He was really creating something that hadn’t been -- something from nothing, for sure. Melissa Sweet Edited Transcript -- February 25, 2016 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 15 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections NJ: Wow. MS: This riffs off the page where Jen writes, what “If (only) all the ideas in the world could be found in one place,” and “then everyone would have” the “(one) book where they could find the best word, the one that really fit.” So here we have light and dark. This question for me was, What does that book look like? It’s big and small, the universe down to tiny microcosms. When he went back as a 60-some-oddyear-old man and began to sort out what the thesaurus would look like, that was when I began to really classify light and dark. I don’t even know if kids will see that, but it doesn’t matter because I had to do it. NJ: Guarantee at least one kid will. ST: Or they’ll feel it. MS: Well, it doesn’t matter. Yes, it will make sense somehow. NJ: And they’ll feel it, and they’ll feel it. MS: Yes. NJ: I mean, this is a poem. MS: It is. NJ: “Worry, fret, grieve, despair, intrude, badger, annoy, plague, provoke, harass. Enough to drive one mad.” MS: That is good! You just said it. NJ: Yes, it’s a poem. MS: That’s a poem. NJ: And this is as much part of the poetry collection. MS: You could just pick five or six numbers and see what a few words do together and see what you could make with that. NJ: That would be a fun game. MS: I thought so too, but I have word nerdiness in my blood, I’m afraid. ST: Well you mentioned this earlier, just putting art in these end papers to lighten it, to make it something that is to be playful -- to have those kinds of things to engage a reader. MS: Yes. And the other thing was about that -ST: to engage a reader. Melissa Sweet Edited Transcript -- February 25, 2016 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 16 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections MS: Mm-hmm. And here we have, like, education, so he’s reading, and this is sort of a list as well with these -ST: On the front end paper. MS: On the front end paper. So what does all this knowledge give you, and that’s what it was. It’s natural history, it’s invention and describing the world, and these are the things he’s describing. ST: Well, thank you. NJ: Thank you. Yeah, we only kept you over three minutes, I think. Wow. Thank you. MS: Thank you. What a pleasure. ST: It’s fascinating. MS: Well, it’s always fun -- it’s fun to talk to you because I see it in a different way as well. I really do. NJ: Yes. MS: And I appreciate that. NJ: And that’s the joy of interpretation -- in so many ways, right? There’s never one way to read a book. MS: No, no. ST: A poem, see an art -MS: That’s a title of a book, there’s never one way to read a book. (End of recording) Melissa Sweet Edited Transcript -- February 25, 2016 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 17 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections
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Title: Anne Mosness interview [transcript of sample audio clip]
Part of: Anne Mosness interview (partial interview clip)
Date: 1993-04-20
Type of resource: text
Object custodian: Center for Pacific Northwest Studies
Related Collection: Women in the commercial fishing industry research collection
Local Identifier: mosness19930420-1aclip

Title: Lyn Dennis interview [audio part 1 of 2]
Part of: Lyn Dennis interview
Date: 1993-02-11
Type of resource: sound recording
Object custodian: Center for Pacific Northwest Studies
Related Collection: Women in the commercial fishing industry research collection
Local Identifier: dennis19930211-1a

Title: Liz Van Doren interview
Date: 2016-01-15
Description: Liz Van Doren is the Editorial Director at Boyds Mill Press and Highlights for Children. Kerry McManus is the Marketing and Permissions Manager at Boyds Mills Press and Highlights for Children. Wordsong, an imprint of Boyds Mills Press, is the only children's imprint in the United States specifically dedicated to poetry.
Digital Collection: PoetryCHaT Oral History Collection
Type of resource: text
Object custodian: Special Collections
Related Collection: PoetryCHaT Collection
Local Identifier: VanDoren20160115
Text preview (might not show all results): Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections PoetryCHaT Liz Van Doren ATTENTION: © Copyright Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. "Fair use" criteria o
Show moreWestern Washington University Libraries Special Collections PoetryCHaT Liz Van Doren ATTENTION: © Copyright Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. "Fair use" criteria of Section 107 of the Copyright Act of 1976 must be followed. The following materials can be used for educational and other noncommercial purposes without the written permission of Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. These materials are not to be used for resale or commercial purposes without written authorization from Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. All materials cited must be attributed to Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. This interview was conducted with Liz Van Doren and Kerry McManus on January 8, 2016, at the American Library Association Midwinter conference in Boston Massachusetts. The interviewers are Nancy Johnson and Sylvia Tag. ST: We are here at ALA Midwinter in Boston. And, we’re having the wonderful opportunity to speak with Liz Van Doren, who is the Editorial Director of Boyds Mills Press. KM: And Kerry McManus, marketing manager. NJ: And what we will do is try to disappear, because more than anything, we would just love for you to talk. Mostly, because this is for our PoetryCHaT, poetry collection, about Wordsong. Don’t worry about it being a natural flow. Whatever comes to mind from when you started working with Bea would be awesome, any of that connection. LVD: So I wish that had been the case. Wordsong was started at the beginning of Boyds Mills Press, which is 23 years ago. The story, it’s a great story, and we can provide you with this interview. There’s an interview with Bea in -KM: -- NCTE journal. LVD: -- an NCTE journal. She was originally invited. She was connected to Highlights for years, and she was invited by our editor in chief to come and speak to the board about what makes a great story. She was also a longtime friend of Kent Brown, who was the founder of Boyds Mills Press. He is the grandson of the founders of Highlights. And he wanted -- Kent is kind of a visionary, and he saw things that maybe other people don’t see, and he was perhaps less concerned with commerce and more concerned with bringing great books to kids no matter what it takes. So he wanted to start a poetry imprint, and he invited Bea to come and do it. Nobody who is on the staff now, unfortunately, worked with her because her association with Wordsong -- I’m not going to say it ended, but it kind of, you know, slowly slipped away over the last 10 years. I’ve been here for 5 years, and I don’t -Liz Van Doren – January 15, 2016 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 1 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections KM: Yes, I agree. It’s probably been closer to maybe 7 or 8 years that she hasn’t been affiliated with, strongly affiliated with Wordsong. LVD: And as she kind of slipped out of that role and did other things, we hired first as a freelancer and then as a full-time staff person Rebecca Davis, who had worked at Simon & Schuster, she worked at Greenwillow, she worked at Orchard. She has a deep passion for poetry. It really takes a special kind of editor to edit poetry. It’s very, -- it’s complicated, and yet it’s just the same as editing anything because a poem is a story. But poetry also has form, and you need to understand the form, and you need to understand when the form works and when the form doesn’t. So Rebecca pretty exclusively publishes all of the poetry for Wordsong now. We think a lot about, National Poetry Month is in April, and we kind of look at how many books a year are we going to publish, and how are we going to manage those? We do publish poetry books in the fall occasionally, a few. We try to publish them mostly in the spring so that we can take advantage of any poetry month promotions. But we also try to keep the list small so that we’re not cannibalizing our young, so that every book has an opportunity to -KM: And there are some years that we don’t publish any Wordsong titles. LVD: Right. NJ: So you don’t make a commitment to say, We will publish two Wordsongs a year? KM: No, it’s really list driven, I would say, author driven, editor driven. LVD: So one of the things as I was doing some research because I have to confess that I had to go to our editor in chief and say, I should know how Wordsong was founded but I don’t know that much about it. And she said, I don’t know that much about it either (laughter), which made me feel so much better, because a 23-year-old history is 23-year-old history. But Wordsong is the Japanese word for poem, and that was Bea’s idea to name this imprint after something really sort of deep and ethereal and heartfelt. I know, very cool. And so, one of the things you asked in the email is what drives our acquisitions? You can imagine that Rebecca gets a lot of submissions every year, and some of them are great, and some of them are okay, and some of them are not great. And so, it’s always a little bit mysterious and yet completely obvious what’s great. One of the things that’s sort of the hallmark, one of the things that we look for, is books that are unexpected. If it’s been published before, we - you know, there’s no point in our doing it. NJ: I’m chuckling because it makes such good sense. LVD: Yes, unexpected is a really important word. If something is expected, that’s not a good thing, in a landscape where books are very expensive to make and very expensive to market and very expensive to buy. We look for books that are kind of inspiring to young readers, that challenge readers to think about themselves, to think about the world, to think about their assumptions, to think about what is inside them emotionally. I think that poetry publishing is a very underserved genre. I just love that there is a Liz Van Doren – January 15, 2016 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 2 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections day called Keep a Poem in Your Pocket Day, and I love that schools do that, and I think that poetry, even for the most reluctant reader, poetry is something -- a poem is something that they can be successful with. And a poem tells a story in very few words. But we really think about, you know, we look for excellent writing, we look for a deep understanding of form. A rhyming picture book is not a poetry picture book, and so that’s always - something that is talked about a lot in our editorial meetings, is, you know, someone will invariably say, Well, it rhymes. Shouldn’t it be a Wordsong book? And Rebecca has a bruise on her forehead from banging it on the table because no, poetry is something bigger than just rhyme. ST: And that’s something that we addressed and confronted ourselves as we were developing the collection, what we’re going to bring into poetry collection from the picture books. And coming to that same, really coming to that same decision that rhyming picture books are not part of what we are going to define as the poetry collection. LVD: Right. And a book could be -- the entire book could be a poem. You can take a poem and illustrate it, and then that’s a poetry picture book. ST: Right, absolutely. LVD: A book can be a collection of poems and be a picture book, and as I talked about earlier, have a story woven through, something that knits all of the poems together. NJ: Your example today, The Farmers Market KM: Right. LVD: Yes, the Fresh Delicious, by Irene Latham. A book, you know, poetry extends into older age groups, and I’ve just been so excited to see acknowledgment in the literary world of novels in verse with our own Words with Wings, with Sharon Creech’s books, with Karen Hess’s book, -KM: Kwame Alexander. LVD: Yes. So, I think those are -- And Rebecca can definitely speak to you more about what, but one of the things we always talk about, Is it unexpected? Has it been done before? How will it be illustrated? With a picture book, that’s really important. We have rejected manuscripts that we could not figure out how to illustrate. There’s a great book that we’re publishing next year called Thunder Underground, which is a collection of poems by Jane Yolen about what happens below the earth. But it’s not just about ants and moles and rabbits. It’s also about sewers and earthquakes and volcanos and what’s under the ocean floor. But it was a crazy challenge to illustrate that book and to figure out, to find an illustrator who wanted to take it on, and kind of figure out how not to be literal with the illustration. KM: And to that note, we have really renown poets that we publish some works on like Jane Yolen and Nikki and Lee Bennett Hopkins. We have a collection of his, Jumping Off Library Shelves, which has all of Liz Van Doren – January 15, 2016 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 3 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections the different renown poets in that book. So it’s curated by Lee, and then we have Nikki and Jane in that book as well, and then we have new poets. That you could probably speak to, Liz. LVD: Right. So I brought a list because we had a -NJ: We’re curious who you got to illustrate that one. KM: Jane Manning was Jumping Off Library Shelves. NJ: But who is doing Thunder Underground KM: I don’t know. I can’t remember. LVD: I’m going to look because I think I have it here. I can tell you -NJ: You said it was a real challenge, and so I’m curious how you worked through that. LVD: It was a real challenge. NJ: Because of illustrators of poetry collections, that’s something that Sylvia and I have been talking about. LVD: Josée Masse. She’s a -- J-O-S-É-E, with an accent on the first E, M-A-S-S-E. So glad I brought my publish list. Be prepared! So, you know, here’s a list of some of the people we’ve published: Jane Yolen, Rebecca Dotlich, Laura Purdie Salas, J. Patrick Lewis, Amy VanDerwater, David Harrison, Lee Bennett Hopkins, Marilyn Singer, Georgia Heard, Nikki Grimes, Janice Harrington, Irene Latham. And we had a dinner at NCTE last year. It began with Janet Wong saying, I got a few people, let’s have a dinner. And then we were like, Let’s we’ll have the dinner, and we’ll invite eight people, and it was one of the most moving experiences of my career. We had 30 -KM: Yes, 30 -LVD: -- 35 or 38 -KM: It was like Wordsong throughout the years. All of these backlist authors, and front list authors, all in one room. LVD: Everybody who is writing poetry for kids was there. KM: Yes. LVD: I was like, Oh my god, it’s like the Academy Awards. KM: Yes, it was an amazing gathering of people. Liz Van Doren – January 15, 2016 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 4 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections LVD: So we really do -- we publish just about everybody who’s writing poetry. We also happen to be the only publisher with an imprint devoted to poetry. But you know, the goal is not volume. The goal is quality. The goal is refinement. The goal is to celebrate poetry. KM: To do the best. LVD: And publishing poetry is hard. Poetry books don’t sell the way picture books and novels do. Occasionally if they win an award, that certainly helps it. It’s interesting to me always that poetry is categorized as nonfiction by the ALA committees, which doesn’t make sense to me at all. NJ: -- Dewey Decimal System. LVD: And in the Dewey Decimal System. Like, where did that come from? Why is that? Isn’t that -doesn’t it always seem odd to you? ST: And we always joke about it. LVD: Everybody always jokes about it. KM: -- and we always forget about it, and then we’re like oh, it’s nonfiction, so we have to recalibrate our thinking sometimes. LVD: I think everybody has to recalibrate their thinking. ST: Well there’s a sense of the history of poetry as expository, as something that was actually historically something, that wasn’t necessarily -- it’s interesting how it ended up in Dewey as nonfiction. It’s interesting too when -- I was preparing for this myself and inventorying our own holdings of Wordsong. I was surprised that there were not fewer titles because we plan on having every single Wordsong book in our collection because we have to have that. KM: Yay. ST: And I was struck by the same thing, but hearing you talk right now about the importance of selection and the intentionality about what you publish, it makes perfect sense. LVD: Well, and the reality that any publisher will talk about is we’re not a nonprofit organization. You know, we have to think about sales as we -- So we do think about Fresh Delicious, for example, that manuscript really, as I said earlier, it sparkled. And there’s a lot of books about farmers’ markets, but there’s no poetry book about a farmers’ market. But there have been other poetry collections that have been submitted to us that just didn’t jump off the page. There was just something about those poems that make you want to eat the fruits and vegetables, want to hold them and look at them, because it’s about color and it’s about taste and it’s about shape and texture. NJ: Texture KM: Yes, sensory. Liz Van Doren – January 15, 2016 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 5 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections NJ: I would like to ask you a question about, and this goes back again to Bea, but the NCTE poetry award and the books that they used to have for poets who won the award that Boyds Mills did, that Bea was a part of, what’s Wordsong or Boyds Mills’ connection to that award, if any? Do you know? KM: I don’t know. And yes, I’d have to look through -- we have an archivist actually at Highlights, so that’s a great -NJ: We could send that question. LVD: I think it was -- here’s what I think about it. The book was called A Jar of Tiny Stars, KM: Right. LVD: -- and then there was a second called Another Jar of Tiny Stars, and I just had this perplexing conversation with our sales people because we put A Jar of Tiny Stars out of print, and they were like, Well why would you do that? It sold a lot of copies. And I said, because Another Jar of Tiny Stars is the same book with more in it.” NJ: It’s different poets. The first ten and then the next ten. LVD: Right. It was a hard decision. They were, again, I think that was Bea’s labor of love. NJ: Yes, I think you’re right. LVD: Because we don’t -- there was no connection between Boyds Mills and the award. It was her connection with Boyds Mills and the award. NJ: That helps me. LVD: Yes. NJ: How do you choose an illustrator for a poetry collection? LVD: It’s interesting. It’s pretty much the same process as choosing an illustrator for a picture book manuscript. You know, we think about what -- the first thing an editor thinks about is, What kind of art style do I think would work? Do I want quirky? Do I want humorous? Do I want watercolor? Do I want graphic? Do I want contemporary? Do I want classic? Do I want timeless? And once you kind of shake that through the funnel and kind of come out with the style that you’re looking for, then you start looking at illustrator websites, agent websites. This conference and any conference is an awesome opportunity for us to walk around and look at what other people are publishing. Because, to be very frank, because the sales of poetry are slower and smaller than the sales of picture books, we also really like to discover people early in their career, partly because they’re willing to maybe accept a lower advance than they would for a picture book. But also because it’s a different kind of illustrating, but the thing we’re always asking them is, You have to tell a visual story. You have to find the visual thread that pulls you through. Not every illustrator can think that way, but when they can it’s great. So it’s not any different a process than matching a picture book manuscript to an illustrator. Liz Van Doren – January 15, 2016 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 6 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections You should ask Rebecca that question too, though. She may say something different. NJ: Does she, which is an interesting question I have, does she make all of the decisions for poetry about which books, all these that you’re going to do or which one a year, and does she make the decision about the artist. LVD: She makes the recommendation. KM: Yes, it’s very collaborative. We have an editorial meeting every month. NJ: Okay. KM: All of us are included in that, and we all give our opinions, good or bad, but then generally it moves from there over to a smaller, more succinct group of people, Liz, and a smaller group that makes the final decisions. LVD: The final decisions are made by me and our publisher with feedback from marketing and feedback from sales. But Rebecca makes all the recommendations, and it’s usually pretty clear. You know, she’s a smart cookie. It’s not that often that we say no, because she has already gone through her own process of vetting. ST: And that encompasses type, font, and those kinds of decisions as well -- because that’s also so important for a poetry book, how the word -KM: Mm-hmm, how it’s laid out -ST: -- the layout of the actual -LVD: Those are all decisions that are made between Rebecca, who’s the editor, and the designer. NJ: Designer, okay. LVD: But again, because publishing takes a village, the creative director and I certainly weigh in. With every book, once the illustrator’s chosen, then we either create galleries for the illustrator to do their sketches with, or they do their sketches, and then we start the type design. The designer and the editor will work closely together, and then they’ll present what’s called the dummy, the pages to me and the creative director, and we’ll -- Our creative director has a really good eye, and she’ll say, I think that font is going to overwhelm the artwork, or it’s too thin and you can’t read it. So there’s -- publishing any book is, I would like to say in any house, I can’t speak per many other houses, but at least at our place and most of the places I’ve worked, a very collaborative process that involves editorial, marketing, sales, design, and production. KM: Right. NJ: All those names don’t go on the book. Liz Van Doren – January 15, 2016 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 7 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections LVD: None of the names -- you know, the only names that go on the book -- this is so funny -- the only names that go on the book are the designer and the production manager. KM: Yes, I know, that is kind of funny. LVD: In magazines, every name goes in it. KM: Right, marketed by... NJ: I want to go back to something you may have answered, but I might not have heard it clearly. So this coming year, you have two novels in verse. KM: Mm-hmm. NJ: Are they Wordsong, or how do you decide? LVD: They’re Wordsong. NJ: As long as it’s any kind of poetry, no matter the form, format, it would be Wordsong? LVD: Yes. KM: Correct, yes. NJ: Okay. I just wanted to be clear on that one. ST: And how do you juggle all these different parts that you have in terms of the differences. KM: Well we write marketing plans every list. Every season and every list, we prioritize our lists. And sometimes it’s a tough process. We have to -- we get a lot of feedback from editorial. We work very closely with Liz, and we identify our lead titles, and then we really put our muscle behind select books. We love them all, but the beauty of Boyds Mills Press is that it’s a small list, so we can work with every author, every illustrator, every title -ST: You can adjust if a book emerges in the list KM: And we can adjust. But I will tell you, like Nikki’s Garvey’s Choice is a lead title for us of course, so we will be putting a lot of marketing muscle behind it. NJ: And that is when? KM: That is fall. LVD: Fall of ’16. KM: Fall of ’16. Liz Van Doren – January 15, 2016 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 8 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections LVD: So we will have ARCs for that book at ALA annual. We will have a big marketing -- it also depends on the author’s availability -- Nikki’s very excited about this one. KM: -- it’s a collaborative, and then another collaborative process over here. That kind of swirls around, and we work very closely with authors and illustrators, especially now with -- We were just talking about this today at the lunch, you know with the advent of Twitter and Facebook, a lot of it is author driven, and it has to be, but we can support them and help them find other avenues to market themselves, but a lot of it is heavily author driven. NJ: It is so different. KM: Yes. NJ: It adds another layer to an author’s life. KM: It does. It’s a good thing though. Ultimately it’s a good thing, but it takes a lot of time. ST: Well it makes a personal connection -- between the book and author, but as you said, it takes a lot of time -KM: Yes, it takes social media -NJ: And some authors, I’m sure, are less, not just skilled, but even willing to -KM: Exactly. NJ: -- invest that part of self. It’s because it’s an investment of yourself. KM: It is. It takes a lot of time for them. LVD: It takes a lot of time for them, but I think today more than ever, any author who expects the publisher to do all the work for them is very misguided. KM: Right. LVD: It just doesn’t happen. It can’t happen. KM: No. It’s a different era. You know, working in the ‘90s and publishing, it’s totally different. It’s really evolved in many, many ways. ST: You still have plenty to do. LVD: We have plenty to do. KM: We have a lot to do, a lot to do. It’s never ending. We could always be doing more, and that’s one of the factors with our jobs is that we have a certain layer of guilt sometimes, that we could always be Liz Van Doren – January 15, 2016 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 9 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections doing more to help an author, but we have to sometimes really pick and choose and really put time behind certain titles. NJ: How many other publishing houses have you worked with? And I’m going to say with poetry. LVD: Four. NJ: Okay. So in those houses, how is poetry here different from poetry in those houses? I mean, you have an actual imprint specific to poetry. KM: Right. LVD: Well, that’s the big difference. I think poetry in my longest gig was a little bit marginalized. It fell in the regular picture book publishing program. If it got attention, if a poetry book got attention, it got great reviews, then people would pay attention to it. But the poetry picture books were seen as picture books first and poetry second, and I think we look at it the other way, right? KM: Yes, I agree, I agree. And that’s my experience too, from working at Random House in the ‘90s, it was always picture book first. If it was poetry, that was always second. LVD: Even though you would say, It’s a poetry picture book, what people heard was picture book. KM: Right. NJ: And you, I’m imagining, feel free to correct me, the reason no one else has an imprint, one of the big reasons, is sales. LVD: Absolutely. ST: So what do you attribute the current upsurge, as modest as it might be, within publishing that’s happening currently with narrative verse in particular, but poetry also? Or maybe not, you don’t see it as much in picture book poetry, but certainly in narrative verse it’s there. KM: I think it’s reactionary to other trends in publishing, you know, the whole dystopian novels maybe. It’s a kinder, gentler reading for a student, or a person in general. LVD: You know, and I have to say, librarians and reviewers are deeply important to our business, and when a book like Out of the Dust wins the Newbery, or Newberry Honor, I can’t remember which one -NJ: The Newbery LVD: -- the Newbery, it gives us hope that when we publish a novel in verse that it will be paid attention to. So as Kerry said, it is reactionary. I was at NCTE last year. We were right across the booth from another publisher, and I was so excited to see one of our authors, Laura Purdie Salas, sitting there with a signing line that went on and on and on and on, and she’s very early in her career. And I think I should mention teachers too. I think that poetry is a really integral part of elementary, you know, ELA Liz Van Doren – January 15, 2016 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 10 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections classrooms, and I think that it’s a great way to teach writing. It’s a great way to teach reading. It’s a great way to talk about creativity. There’s a lot of now national programs. I cannot underestimate the importance of things like the Scholastic Art & Writing Awards, where young poets can be honored nationally by the submission of poetry that is judged by grownups, by real live, awesome, adult, wellknown poets. And I think that, I don’t know, I’m very happy to see it, but it is reactionary, and I think it’s just something changes and then people notice, and then it changes a little bit more, and it changes a little bit more, and suddenly it’s just part of the conversation. KM: Yes. ST: Well, I know in speaking with Sylvia Vardell, her comments about The Poetry Friday Anthologies that she and Janet Wong are publishing and how they’ve gone through to middle school, and that’s sort of their cut off. They are not doing those for high school, because it really is at K-8 grades where they’re finding this rich response to those collections of verse. And I’m just curious myself eventually to see what’s happening with YA literature and poetry. It’s curious -KM: Right. And we have ambassadors, like the children’s poet laureates -KM: -- J. Patrick Lewis. That didn’t exist. NJ: -- and Jackie Woodson is now in that role. KM: That didn’t exist. So that’s a fairly new phenomenon that really keeps poetry in the forefront. NJ: That’s right. That’s a good point. We need to think about how we weave them into the conversation. That award and people who created that award. LVD: Well the National Poetry Foundation is a really, really powerfully active organization, and I think that they have certainly helped. Because they support that post, and so I think it would be very interesting to talk to their director as well as to Pat Lewis or, I forgot who followed him. I think that -NJ: Kenn Nesbitt. And he’s in Spokane in our area. And, the role of people like Janet Wong and Sylvia Vardell, and they’re so present out in the social networking of poetry, that’s cool. I mean, they do such cool stuff for teachers. And I imagine that that has, I would hope, had an impact even on poetry sales? KM: It’s huge for us. Sylvia every year comes to us and says, What do you have that’s new? NJ: Every new book – it will be posted on her blog. KM: And she will support us. She supports us. LVD: And she supports our authors. KM: She does. She really tries to get a Wordsong author on her poetry panel every year at TLA. So she always lets us know, always asks us. If we have somebody, she accepts them, and it’s a great promotion for us. So she and Janet are support. Liz Van Doren – January 15, 2016 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 11 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections LVD: It’s great support for us because we do need that support, you know. We can’t just do it ourselves The poets do. KM: Right. LVD: I also think something else that I’m noticing as the parent of a middle schooler, and Kerry, you might be noticing this too. Poetry has gotten kind of cool. Like that whole kind of downtown art beat spoken word. Like spoken word is now part of the conversation among teenagers, and it’s kind of this sort of retro, this thing that has come around again. KM: I agree. Even with social media that they use, you know, the Snapchats and Instagram posts, just a little quick poem accompanied by a photograph is -- I see that a lot when I check their social media LVD: Exactly, when we monitor their social media. KM: It’s cooler. Even the stores they like to shop, and, you know, the little journals that have little poems added. They love that. They love it. So it’s coming around again to that age. NJ: There’s so much about poetry that’s about identity and voice. LVD: Yes. NJ: But I think of Kwame’s making it cool. In fact, he’s a huge influence on the role of poetry, spoken poetry, but linking it with basketball. You and I know poetry’s about something, but a lot of people don’t know that. LVD: Well, they’re threatened by it. They think, I’m not gonna understand it. ST: Well, there’s the right answer that you have to answer about poetry, which is unfortunate. LVD: You know, something else I didn’t say earlier that sort of belongs in the how do you make a decision about what to publish. I talked a lot about picture books and a rhyming picture book, and this is a trend we’re seeing that I’m about to address. A rhyming picture book isn’t necessarily a work of poetry. A novel that has line breaks in the middle of a sentence is not necessarily a novel in verse, and we get a lot of submissions that are just phrases kind of lined up to look poetic, and Rebecca will be the first one to say, It’s not poetry. It’s just broken sentences. KM: Right, right. LVD: So that’s also interesting that we’re getting a lot of those submissions. NJ: It helps us understand what it is, then. What is the difference? KM: Mm-hmm. LVD: Yes. Liz Van Doren – January 15, 2016 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 12 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections NJ: Because that’s part her expertise. LVD: She speaks about it way better than I can. ST: It’s part of the craft. NJ: How long has she been with Boyds Mills? LVD: She started out as a -- it’s been about five years. She’s been our full-time employee for three, I think. NJ: Did she always do poetry in her other houses? LVD: No, she did picture books and novels as well. But when she was hired to work as a freelance editor, she was hired because she is an editor who deeply understands and is very passionate about poetry. But she also publishes picture books and fiction as well. For example, if another editor wanted to publish a Wordsong book, they could, but Rebecca would be involved because she has so many smarts and so much to say and so much experience. NJ: She’s got a lot of knowledge. LVD: Exactly. ST: I don’t know if we have anything else. This has been a wonderful start. And gosh, and again, just to reiterate the centrality of Wordsong as an imprint. LVD: Well thank you so much. ST: I anticipate it might be that we come back again and have another conversation. KM: Yes. LVD: Absolutely. We’ll talk on the phone. LVD: We’re on the phone all day long, so -KM: You can dial in to our 800 hundred number. ST: And we are so grateful. KM: And like I said, we have a lot of archival information about Wordsong that we can pass -LVD: Yes, that interview with Bea is great. KM: I will make sure I’ll put together a whole packet for you on a .pdf, whatever you’d like. NJ: Really valuable. Liz Van Doren – January 15, 2016 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 13 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ST: That would be extremely valuable. The vision for the collection really is very broad at this point. We would like to interview illustrators, the publishers, the editors. We would like to interview the publishers and the editors and all the different components that belong, LVD: Yes, it would be really interesting to talk to the illustrators. KM: Especially the ones that had a relationship with Bea. LVD: But like, someone like Matt Cordell, for example, he illustrates picture books. He also did a book of poetry for us. KM: Right. LVD: So, it might be interesting to talk to someone like him about what’s the difference. ST: I’m going to turn off the recorder at this point. End of recording. Liz Van Doren – January 15, 2016 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 14 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections
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Title: Sylvia Vardell interview
Date: 2016-01-08
Description: Sylvia Vardell is a Professor in the School of Library and Information Studies at Texas Woman's University. Her work focuses on poetry for chldren, including a regular blog, PoetryforChildren. She is the regular "Everyday Poetry" columnist for ALA's BookLinks magazine and the 2014 recipient of the ALA Scholastic Library Publishing Award.
Digital Collection: PoetryCHaT Oral History Collection
Type of resource: text
Object custodian: Special Collections
Related Collection: PoetryCHaT Collection
Local Identifier: VardellSylvia_20160108
Text preview (might not show all results): Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections PoetryCHaT Sylvia Vardell ATTENTION: © Copyright Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. "Fair use" criteria
Show moreWestern Washington University Libraries Special Collections PoetryCHaT Sylvia Vardell ATTENTION: © Copyright Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. "Fair use" criteria of Section 107 of the Copyright Act of 1976 must be followed. The following materials can be used for educational and other noncommercial purposes without the written permission of Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. These materials are not to be used for resale or commercial purposes without written authorization from Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. All materials cited must be attributed to Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. This interview was conducted with Sylvia Vardell on January 8, 2016, at the American Library Association Midwinter conference in Boston Massachusetts. The interviewers are Nancy Johnson and Sylvia Tag. ST: We are here in Boston, Massachusetts and Midwinter ALA with Sylvia Vardell, professor at Texas Women’s University and we are going to spend some time finding out about your poetry experience. SV: I’m thrilled. Do you need to check the recording, or you’ve done this and you know that it reaches. NJ: It’s one of those fancy pants ones. SV: Super duper, alright. ST: This is not the old fashioned kind. SV: I know, I’m such an amateur -NJ: Could you speak a little louder? SV: A cassette tape. NJ: We’re going to mostly let you talk, and we might occasionally have a question or two. SV: Okay, start from the beginning. Alright. Well, my professor work with poetry is in the last 15 years or so, but in doing this, it got me thinking, where are these roots from? Where did this come from? And it just surprised me that poetry was there in my childhood in a way that I hadn’t really articulated until I was way old. And I grew up as an ESL kid. My first language was German. My parents were German, and I learned English from neighbor kids. And, yes, so poetry was a way for me to get a handle on English, you know, the rhythm and the rhyme Sylvia Vardell Edited Transcript – January 8, 2016 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 1 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections and the way words are supposed to be pronounced. And I never really put that into words until way, way, way later. It was very powerful for me. And when I was about 8 -- the first books that I had were in German, little children’s books in German, and there was a book that had all kinds of prose and poetry pieces. And there was a little poem in there that I made myself memorize and perform for my mom for her birthday that I still know, and it’s not a great poem by anybody famous -ST: Well let’s hear it. German poem from childhood Wenn Vater oder Mutter Geburtstag haben Was soll ich Dir sagen? Was soll lich Dir geben? Ich hab nur ein kleines ein junges Leben. Ich hab ein Herz dass denkt und spricht Ich hab dich lieb Mehr weiss Ich nicht! (Original source unknown) NJ: Could you translate? SV: It’s something like when Mom or Dad have a birthday, what should I say? What should I give? I only have a small mind, a small heart, but I love you dearly, and that’s all I have to give. Something like that. I know, it sounds really schmaltzy and corny in English, but in German it’s just sort of rollicking, rhythmic rhyme, just silly kind of thing. But anyway, I did that on my own initiative because that was the book I had, and I wanted to do something for my mom, and what did I choose? A poem. And I just love that. And I love that it’s still with me. That’s sort of the power of poetry too. It sticks in your brain forever. But then years go by, and I’m an avid reader. I read lots of things. I don’t actually read that much poetry as a kid, after that, when I move into English, I really don’t. You know, you have to in school, memorize “The Village Blacksmith” in 6th grade for Mrs. Brooks. Under the spreading chestnut-tree the village smithy stands.” And that was a hideous experience, because I didn’t know what I was saying, you know, you’re 12 years old. What’s a village blacksmith? I’m a little German girl. I’ve never seen a blacksmith. So, and then the whole agony of getting up in front of your classmates to say a poem was a big negative for me. Even though I’m a really good memorizer, that public performance thing, that was not comfortable. I was a very shy kid, if you can believe it, very shy. And so, that was, “Oh, poetry is not for me.” And then in high school and college, you’re memorizing, not memorizing, you’re analyzing poetry, and I was actually very good at that. One of my favorite stories is an English class at UT Austin where we had to describe our analysis of a poem, and I hadn’t Sylvia Vardell Edited Transcript – January 8, 2016 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 2 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections even read it, I just made shit up, and then the professor reads my response out loud to the class as a model example. So what that taught me was, it’s just all bullshit, you know. So you’re going to have to censor that. NJ: Or not. ST: Not at all, that’s -- a real response. SV: Poetry is what it means, you know, whatever you think it means. And I was lucky enough not to have too many teachers who said, “You have to get what I got out of it.” It was the ‘70s and we were all hippies, and they said, “Whatever you think, that’s valid and legitimate.” Which, I value that, but on the other hand, I didn’t have any guidance in really understanding or thinking deep or looking at the context in which the poem was written, anything. So that -- in my childhood I loved it, then I didn’t read it, then I just made stuff up, and then -- actually at the University of Minnesota in my doctoral program, I was studying children’s literature in depth, just loved it. That’s really where things just caught fire for me professionally. And I worked with Norine Odland who’s no longer with us. She was a giant in the field, and a cranky, cranky lady, but she was so smart, and she mentored me. She thought she saw something. And that was such a great experience. It just totally turned my life down the children’s literature path. But I also met a fellow doctoral student named Mary Kay Rummel, and I don’t even know what she’s doing now. NJ: Oh-SV: Do you know Mary Kay Rummel”? Is she somebody? See, I’ve not kept up with her in 30 years. NJ: I haven’t heard the name in a long time. SV: She was a Ph.D. student ahead of me, almost finished, and I just knew her a teeny bit, but she was a poet. She wrote poetry and performed it and published it, in just small presses, and I was like, “Oh!” It just like opened the door again. And I just really sort of dived in and started reading all the poetry I could find, especially for young people. She was really writing for an adult audience, and I didn’t pursue that, oddly enough. But it made me think about poetry again, and this is why I’m, oh my gosh, I’m going to be so old. This is when Shel Silverstein was new. Where the Sidewalk Ends was like brand, right -NJ: First editions. SV: -- brand new hot, and I’m teaching 6th graders. Where the Sidewalk Ends was written for my class. Oh my gosh, they loved it. And I always said, if I was stranded on a desert island with 6th graders, that would be the one book I would like to have, because you could just read it over and over and over again, and just laugh and laugh and laugh, and they were so, you know -- there’s sort of an angry subtext in some of those poems. Sylvia Vardell Edited Transcript – January 8, 2016 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 3 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ST: Of course SV: Right, right. Which 6th graders totally get. So that was it, that was it for me. I thought, oh my gosh, I just love this. I did not think that poetry could be anything but the “The Village Blacksmith” or silly childhood rhymes, which I also value classics and silliness, but I’m now I’m seeing, oh, you can write with a child audience in mind, or you can write for adults but then kids see something in it too. It just, Woo! Very exciting. So then I started reading more poetry for kids, and various poets come to the University of Minnesota because they host authors, and that was awesome, meeting an author. Wow! I did not grow up with that as a kid. I don’t know if you guys did. But wow! ST: No, it wasn’t a time -- this is a new time when authors started to travel and actually present about their creative process. That wasn’t an experience for my childhood. SV: Right, right. Or maybe adult authors did it for adult audiences. I don’t know. I just never -- did not know. I was very like lower-middle class, you know. So that was so exciting to hear Tomie DePaola talk about work and sit at a table with him because the doctoral students are -- oh my gosh! Yes, and a special time, and it was great. It was great. So then I started -- you know, I got my first professor job and started working in children’s literature. NJ: Where was that? SV: That was at a small college. The University of Houston had a branch in Victoria, TX, way down on the Gulf Coast. At the time, it was just juniors and seniors and master students. I don’t know if it’s expanded since then. They had a visiting position open, and I had just finished my exams actually. I hadn’t written a dissertation. And my husband was ready to move. He had stayed another year in Minnesota so that -- We went there for his schooling, he finished, then I started doing schooling, and I was almost finished, so he stayed another year, did another degree. He loves school. He could do degrees till the cows come home. But we were both ready to move back to Texas, which was sort of home for us, and that position was open, and I was like, oh, that would be cool. I’d never thought about being a professor, honestly. I wanted a Ph.D. because that was the most school that you could have. That was my logic. I mean, I love school. I just kept going to school and teaching kids. So I thought I would just be some curriculum person. Move from the classroom into supervision, and that was fine. But then I was flipping through The Chronicle, there was that position, I applied for it, and they hired me. Oh my gosh. I was just like, a professor, okay. I never knew a professor in my entire life. I didn’t know to aspire to even think about doing that. But oh my gosh, that first summer I taught summer classes that started at 7 in the morning, and I lived an hour away. I know! Now I’d be like, Hell no. But at the time, I was like, I will pay you if I could do this. It was amazing. It was the perfect storm of what Sylvia has to bring and what job is out there in the world. I felt like the luckiest person ever. And I still feel really lucky. Don’t you feel really lucky to do this job, to get paid to read and teach and talk about books and help children and people who work with children, love reading? Oh my gosh! If I Sylvia Vardell Edited Transcript – January 8, 2016 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 4 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections were going to invent a perfect job to do for my life, that would be it. And I’ve been doing it almost 40 years and just love it. So at the time, children’s literature was not a thing you could do exclusively, so I taught reading and language arts and methods, even curriculum and instruction. And I supervised student teachers. You do a whole lot of things, especially at a small campus, any campus. And I enjoyed all of that, but children’s literature was always my favorite thing. And little by little, I was able to specialize in that and move to a couple different universities. And each time, it was a position that was just children’s literature, until I moved to library science, which was quite a leap, in 2001, at Texas Woman’s. I’d always been in reading or in curriculum, and they had an opening in their library information studies program, where Betty Carter was retiring, and she’d mentioned it to me. She said, “You should think about it.” I was like, “Really? I don’t have an MLS. I’ve never worked in a library.” I took a library science course at the University of Minnesota, loved it, but it was at the very end of my program. If anybody had said to consider this, I would have done that in a minute. But again, you know, it’s all the things that are in the road in front of you that unless somewhere mentors you, and I never had any mentors. So, she said apply, and I was like, Okay. And I applied, and I kept saying, I don’t have an MLS, right? You know that, right? Because I didn’t want to pretend to be something I wasn’t, and I was older at this point and pretty established, and they hired me as a full professor at TWU, and I just do children’s YA poetry, multicultural, just literature courses, and oh my gosh, that is the icing on the cake. So that’s my career trajectory. But the poetry interests actually evolved too, because first I was just doing general children’s lit, and I’m studying authors because I was so taken with this power of meeting authors, did a lot with that. And then got involved in CLA, the Children’s Literature Assembly at NCTE, which really was my mentoring body. They changed my life too. I met the best people, and opportunities came my way. Do you remember Richard Van Dongen? NJ: Oh yes. SV: -- invited me to be on the Notables committee, and I was just like, Oh my gosh, this is so amazing, books come to your house? Oh, I just thought that was I’d died and gone to heaven. Was it? Yes, and that was it. Then you’re like, I need more of this. I need some more heroin. And so many good people. And then you just feel really connected with a bigger family professionally. And got really involved in CLA. And so first the opportunity was Notables, so that was sort of wide reading, and then the next opportunity was nonfiction. I did like 10 years, got to work on the Orbis Pictus and established that award. I got to come up with a name for it, and that was so fun. I still love nonfiction, but then I was also intrigued by multicultural literature, again because of my background, the different language and cultures that I grew up with. A lot of my family doesn’t even Sylvia Vardell Edited Transcript – January 8, 2016 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 5 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections speak English, so I was very aware of how important it was to expose kids to all kinds of literature. So I spent a lot of time also reading and writing about multicultural literature. And then in each of these things, poetry’s always popping up because poetry’s considered nonfiction, right, in the library world? It’s kind of weird. And then poetry kept popping up in multicultural literature because so many authors of color are poets or write poetry. I was very intrigued by that too. So little by little, I’m writing more and more about poetry, and I’m all the time reading it and including it in my teaching. And then, I think it was when I moved to TWU, yes, I think it was, that I really decided, you know, I just want to look at poetry now. Maybe it was because I finally felt comfortably settled professionally. I could focus. And I had this idea that we needed a book of professional resources, it was very practical, about the teachings of poetry and the sharing of poetry. Really not even the teaching, just the knowing of poetry for children, because there was so much out now that I felt like my students didn’t know about. They at this point knew Shel Silverstein, and then some would know Jack Prelutsky’s work, but that was it. They didn’t know the NCTE poetry award. And the more I taught the more I was like, you know, there’s an absence here. So I came up with this proposal for a very little practical book about poetry and the sharing of poetry for kids and wrote a proposal, and ALA accepted it, and that became the book, Poetry Aloud Here! And man, that was so exciting to get to write that little book and have it be a big success, and then that opened all these doors and windows for meeting poets and presenting about poetry at conferences and sharing more ideas with students. And then the blog thing happened. People started doing blogs, and I was like, “What’s that? That’s cool!” And so I wanted to do a blog. As a professor I thought that’s a good idea to model for students. What shall I do? Well there were heaps, and this is 2005, heaps of blogs now emerging on children’s lit, and I thought, Well, I don’t want to be another children’s literature blog. I’m going to do poetry. So I just started writing about the poetry that’s out there for kids, how to share it, what to link it with. Then very, sort of practical -- always very practical minded. I’m not really a scholar, really, researcher. I know, I know! But, I’m not really investigating things. I’m more -- I had a colleague once who said, You’re a translator. You’re trying to take what is known and then help people in the field use it. ST: A connector. SV: Okay. Whatever word you want to use. ST: Translator. SV: And I love that. I don’t apologize for that. Sylvia Vardell Edited Transcript – January 8, 2016 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 6 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ST: Your blog is exceptional though, in terms of the resources. It’s very evident that you work very hard on it, the extensive listings of poets as well as the topics you bring up, and it’s current all the time. You go and whatever’s emerging really -- it’s really a place. SV: Thank you very much. ST: You’re welcome. NJ: Powerful resource. SV: I’ve had a lot of fun with it. And it was an opportunity to explore blogging. And then it was an opportunity to keep up. It’s like going to Weight Watchers and you know they’re going to weigh you, and so you’ve got to keep up. So you’ve got a blog every Friday, you’re like okay, you’re looking around, what do I need to write about? I’m a little behind at the moment actually. It’s on my list of things to do. It’s a Christmas post at the moment. But I’m always looking for the moment, because I’m thinking of my audience as basically practitioners, right? So they don’t want to just analyze a poem, they want to know who’s writing, what are the new books, how do we share them, -- what unit will this go with, etc. So, I’ve had a lot of fun with it. It’s 10 years now. NJ: When you said that I couldn’t believe it. SV: Yes, this coming summer, 10 years. I’m trying to think of what to do for 10 years. But of course now there are fewer bloggers I’ve found. That’s sort of winnowing, but I still feel like that’s a worthwhile resource. And then that blogging led to more presenting at conferences and more fawning over my favorite authors. And I went to an IRA where Janet Wong was signing the very first book, Good Luck Gold, I believe, and I just loved that book. To me, it spoke to me as a little German girl, right, with two cultures, grandparents who didn’t get America. I mean, she and I had a very interesting parallel path. And I went up to her and got her to sign my book, and I said, “Oh, I just love your work.” And you know Janet, she’s like, “Oh, now we’re best friends.” And I was like, Oh. So she was so accessible and just really engaged with me, and so as a professor, if you can put a proposal together with some authors on it, you’ve got a little better chance of getting accepted. So I thought, Well, I’ll ask Janet. And she said yes to being on a proposal, and we had a really good time doing our session. I thought, Okay, I’ll work with her again, because I’ve worked -- lots of authors, and some of them are easy and they deliver, and some of them are eh-well. Good writers, all, but some people are better speakers. Some people are easier to work with than others. ST: Of course. SV: Anyway, so oh man, this is kind of a long life story. So then I get a chance to be on the NCTE poetry award committee, and I co-chaired with Peggy Oxley, and that is tremendous. Sylvia Vardell Edited Transcript – January 8, 2016 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 7 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections NJ: Wow! SV: That was a fun experience. And we chose Nikki Grimes as our recipient, which was awesome. I got to become friends with Nikki. And then the committee following mine had Janet on it, and Janet was a member, and I think it was Ralph Fletcher that was the chair. Oh I can’t remember who they chose now. Was it Lee? Yes, it was Lee Bennett Hopkins. So Janet, being the dynamo that she is, when it came time for the committee to put forward proposals, because every committee is supposed to get on the docket for the next convention, she’s like, Well, maybe Sylvia will help. And I’m like, Sure. So I wrote the proposal, even though I was the last year’s chair, and it of course got accepted because it was a committee sponsored proposal. And so lo and behold, here comes the, I think it was the Philadelphia convention and Lee Bennett Hopkins was going to be honored, and it’s falling to Janet and me, even though she’s just a member, not the chair, and I’m on the old committee. Anyway, and we are like a deadly combination in terms of having ideas, more ideas than sense or money. And I said, You know what, we should do like a little Festschrift for Lee, like a little dittoed book of poems in honor of his winning the award, and she said, That’s a great idea. She said, We should get it funded. And I’m like, I just thought we’d, you know, go run it off at Kinko’s. You know, my dreams are like this big, her dreams are like this big. And she’s like, I’m going to go to NCTE, and she did. They gave us a thousand dollars, and now all of a sudden it was going to be a little nicer. And so -- I know, I know. So in the space of the summer before the NCTE conference, we gather all these contact emails from poets. We write them and say, Would you write an original poem for Lee? And like 65 people say yes, and they send us poems. And Janet and I go back and forth and back and forth, getting the poems, organizing them, and then we decide, We need to publish a little book. And Steven Alcorn, who’d worked with Lee, gave us free art. And then Janet did this research on who could publish a decent quality book. It was some company in Michigan. I mean, it was just insane how this little idea became, wow, really cool. I’m very proud of that little book. And Lee just loved it. It’s a really nice actual book. ST: Was it a surprise for Lee? SV: Uh-huh. ST: Ah, you managed to keep it a -SV: I know! ST: That’s marvelous! SV: Or maybe it wasn’t and he just acted like it was, but he was thrilled, yes, it was great. NJ: Wow. Sylvia Vardell Edited Transcript – January 8, 2016 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 8 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections SV: And we learned a lot about the poets that we were working with, again, who’s easy and who’s not, who uses the f-word in a poem and what do we do with that? NJ: Who makes a deadline. SV: Who makes a deadline, who doesn’t. And we learned a lot about each other, and each other’s working style was we were just so parallel. We would like, well, Nancy can totally appreciate this too, I’m sure. You probably can too, Sylvia. You know, you have people you write and then you wait a couple of days and you get an answer, and it’s not clear and you have to follow up... Well, Janet and I were so in sync. Within minutes of each other, we were emailing back and forth. And, I don’t know, it was incredible, it still is, an incredible working relationship, where there’s no ego. Instead maybe she’ll say, That’s a stupid idea, and I’m like, You’re right, that is! NJ: But it’s an idea. SV: How about we just don’t hurt each other’s feelings. It’s really great. I don’t know how that is, but yes. So that was our first little effort together, and then she’s like, We should do something else together. And I’m like, Yes, that would be great. And one of my colleagues in Texas was telling me the following summer that Texas was about to start testing children’s knowledge of poetry. ST: Sigh. SV: I know, I know. But my thought was, You know what that means? That means that teachers are going to freak out because they don’t know how to do this. They don’t know how -NJ: The Blacksmith poem. SV: Right, right. They don’t know how to approach poetry. They don’t do anything with it. ST: Yes, the poetry that they knew, exactly, from when they were growing up instead of something that’s new and innovative. SV: This is an opportunity to create a resource for teachers that bridges that gap between -- they’re going to be tested. Teachers need to know poetry first, and then they need to know how to share it. And that’s how The Poetry Friday Anthologies were born. NJ: Wow! ST: Oh, is that right? SV: Yep. NJ: So it was because of Texas initiative. Sylvia Vardell Edited Transcript – January 8, 2016 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 9 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections SV: A very bad, yes. And yes, that’s still - I hate that for testing. NJ: Do they still do it? SV: Oh yes. They keep refunding it, yes, yes. (Sigh) So, that is sort of my career trajectory and sort of the history of Janet and me working together and the PFA series. NJ: But it’s not the only book. SV: No, no, one thing led to the next. NJ: Want to keep it going to how one book led to how do you make the decisions about, what book you’re working on, and how do you -SV: Sure. NJ: Could you talk about those choices within the publishing and creating that. SV: Okay. Yes, because that’s been very interesting too, in terms of our deciding to publish it ourselves. Yes, that was totally nuts. But how did that happen exactly? We were walking around NCTE in Orlando, and I was sharing this idea with her about how I thought there was a market for something, because my Poetry Aloud Here! book had shown me that there was an audience for teachers and librarians to know just the nuts and bolts of how to select and share poetry with kids. But I thought, teachers in Texas, for example, needed more than that. They needed like lesson plans or actual poems, you know. I know. So we were just tossing ideas around, and as Janet does, she starts promising, We’re going to write a book, and then she starts telling everybody that we walked by on the sidewalk, So, what do you think we should do? And she’s just so open and transparent. It’s really great. It’s a little nerve-racking sometimes too, but it’s great. So we would like survey everybody we had dinner with at that whole conference about, What do you think, what do you think, what do you think? And I’m not even exactly sure, you know, how things sort of clicked, because we spent actually months on the format. What was the book going to look like? And originally, what was it going to include? It was going to have even more than it has, because Janet wanted -- We both agreed, by the way, we needed poems and lessons, sort of, together. But then she wanted even more. What did we have? The page was really full. We had a poem and a lesson and something else too. I can’t think of what it was. Was it about the poet? It might have been, eh, it might have -- oh, I think it was. It was from the poet, like the writing of the poem, something like that. Which I love in concept, but when we had a layout, it was just like ehhh, you know, you just, it was more -- it was sort of the tipping point of I can’t do anything with this for a teacher, you know, overwhelming, I don’t know where to start. It assumed that you already loved poetry and that you would know what to do first, second or third, and I said, No. And she kept saying, You know, we need to get out of the poetry ghetto. Janet says that a lot, because we’re always talking Sylvia Vardell Edited Transcript – January 8, 2016 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 10 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections to other people who love poetry. She said, That’s nice, but that’s not changing anything for kids, right? That’s why you’re doing what you’re doing, see? We want to reach out to people who don’t love poetry and show them, You can do this. You will like this. You’ll be surprised how much you like this. And so that’s when as we were looking at what should the book include, I said, Let’s really distill and simplify. I think that that was my doing. I thought we just need the poem and the lesson, and that’s it. And then we could have ancillary things on the web, because Janet’s also very tech savvy, and she’s pushed me to learn a lot about how to use websites and marketing, etc. We can do more elsewhere, but the book itself has to be -- the thing we were going for, that a teacher opens it and says, I can do this. And I hear that a lot, and it just makes my heart glad when a teachers says, I can do this, because before they were like, I can’t do this. I don’t know poetry. I can’t do it. So, how did we decide to self-publish? I think it was simply a matter of how fast she likes to work, the speed. Because you know, it takes two, three, more years, years, to take a book from proposal to actual publication. And then -NJ: It couldn’t wait. You got that test coming. SV: Yep. I mean, that was sort of our logic. I’m sure it was Janet who knew about CreateSpace. That was not me. And I’m not sure how she knew about that because she had not done anything with it before. So I’m not quite sure. I’ll have to ask her again, Where did that idea come from? But I know that wasn’t mine. And so she was like, CreateSpace, it’s from Amazon. It’s print-on-demand. I’m like, What? So you know, I did some looking and I thought, Well, okay, it’s self-publishing, actually, but I thought, Why not? I don’t know. Janet always makes me feel like, Why not? And I kind of grew up with that. I guess it’s my immigrant parents, you know, who left Germany -NJ: They had to say that. SV: -- moved to Australia, and they’re like, Why not, why don’t we go to America? My dad opened companies when he was alive, and yep, I kind of grew up with this, Why not? Which actually I’m so grateful for, because a lot of people I’ve met in my life, most people I would say, are like, Let’s play it safe. I know this, I can do this. And I love that Janet and I both are like, Why not, let’s try this. So, that’s -- we decided on the self-publishing route. And now she calls us micropublishers, which I love. Because we established an actual company. NJ: Because it has a name. SV: Right, right, right. And that was her idea too. She’s very business savvy. I am not. I would just give it away, honestly. It’s so much work to be a business. But yes, so we came up with a company, and we went back and forth on what should it be called? That was a fun exercise, and I think I was the one who said Pomelo, because, gosh, we had spent months on this. It was going to be like Red Squirrel and Poetry is Us, and, you know, we came up lots of bad ideas. I was looking -- you know how you just Google words and the online thesaurus, What’s another word for a poem or poetry? I was looking around, and the letters of poem were in Pomelo, and somehow Pomelo popped up, and I was like, Oh, Sylvia Vardell Edited Transcript – January 8, 2016 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 11 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections Pomelo, that’s a fun word, although a lot of people say “pa-mello,” and I say, whatever. But what was really powerful about it is that it has great significance in Asian culture, and it’s very popular in Asian countries, and so Janet is very big on that too. She’s so interesting. She’s such a down to earth, practical gal, but the significance of numbers, numerology and good and evil -Yes, it’s very big to her. So like we can’t launch on an odd day and stuff like that, and I’m like, Okay. She’s not really superstitious, and yet, you know, she has some ideas about that’s not lucky and that is lucky, so that’s been fun. I didn’t know all that. ST: Delightful. SV: Yes, right. So, we went back and forth, Pomelo, yes, let’s do that. And so the first book came out, Poetry Friday Anthology, K-5, and we decided also to research the common core because that was new, right? And the Texas standards were out, the testing that was coming up, and we decided to try and combine those. And basically what we’re trying to do is show people that really good teaching needs the skills and standards no matter what. We’ve said that for how long? But we tried to actually itemize and show, These are the skills that you are supposed to teach. Here they are. See, we’ve done it for you. But we tried to create these “Take 5” lessons so that they’re real organic and playful and fun and varied. It’s not the same formula over and over again. Each time it’s a little different, and it’s very interactive with kids. So that’s been successful. Teachers have really responded to that. NJ: So how many books now? SV: The first one was in 2012, is that right? Yep, because that was my cancer year, going to always remember that. And then we were like, What are we going to do next? And people were saying, Are you going to do one -- the audience was saying, Are you going to do one for older kids? And we talked about that at length, middle school and high school, and the common core standards and the Texas standards for middle school are much more extensive for poetry than for K-5, as you would guess. They’re older kids, they can do more. And so I was like, Well, it’s going to take more space in the book to create a lesson that is meaningful for middle school, but we could do it if we have the poem on one page and the lesson on the other. Previously it had been poem with the lesson on the same page, okay? But previously it was K-5, six grades, now it was 6th, 7th and 8th, three grades, so we were like, Oh yeah, okay, we can do that. So I had a lot of fun. I do all the lessons. That’s my proponent. I had a lot of fun with that, creating lessons that involved lots of technology and lots of drama and music, and that was fun. And so we did the middle school book. Some people have asked about high school. We have decided unequivocally we’re not doing a high school book, a lot of reasons. Mainly, in middle school it’s still -- it’s probably a specialist in English language arts or a reading teacher who’s teaching it, but they’re still sort of generalists, in terms of Sylvia Vardell Edited Transcript – January 8, 2016 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 12 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections covering lots of content in English. In high school, they really begin to narrow down. They think of themselves as academicians. They’re very specialized and a little bit snooty and purist. NJ: They teach content not kids. SV: Right. And we thought, they won’t want new contemporary poetry, live poets. They want classics, by and large. And they don’t want the lessons made for them. It just -- we thought, it’s not a good fit for our approach. Our approach is much lighter and more -- these are incidental things you can do in addition to curriculum. It’s not intended to be a full-blown lesson. If you’re going to do an hour lesson with students, this is not for you. You can build on it, but in a high school class, it’s just a whole different ballgame. So we’re not ever going to do that. I’m not, not interested in that. NJ: And you don’t need to, you have apparently enough projects -SV: Yes, we always have projects. Yes, so what was after that? We went back and forth. We’ve had lots of ideas that we haven’t pursued, but Janet thought that we should connect with the content across the curriculum in some way. And I said, Yes. I teach a course in poetry for graduate students, and I said the unit that is the most popular is “Poetry across the curriculum,” and she was like, Oh, okay, yes, that fits. And she said, Well, what is the area that typically is the biggest draw? And I said, Science, without question, because there is so much great nature poetry, animal poetry that naturally fits, for science instruction. So we decided to go down the science poetry path. But, once again, being the teacher, well we’ve got to connect with the standards, okay? So we had to really dig deep into the NSTA Next Generation Science Standards. That was an education. We actually went to science teacher conferences. NJ: I know. SV: Yes, very cool. Wow, that is such a different world! So different, and so fun, and they were so open to poetry. It’s amazing. Yes, really, really open. Who knew? More so than generalist elementary teachers are open to science. They’re not. There’s a lot of resistance to science. It’s very interesting. But we did the science one. And then that was 2012, was K-5. 2013 was middle school. 2014 was science. And last year, 2015, was the celebrations book. And in the science book, we had a few poets who said, they were Latina, Can we do our poems in Spanish and English? And we were like, Yes, that’s a great idea, absolutely! Because again, with my language background, I thought, I would love to validate many languages. And actually, one of the ideas I floated many times that we haven’t pursued is an international poetry collection, with poets around the world using their home language and English. But the whole prospect is so daunting, not the least of which is paying royalties in different currencies. ST: Yes, I think that’s a fascinating direction -- the idea of children’s, poets who write for children, it might be that they are adult poets who then have some children’s poetry. I’d be so curious about that. Sylvia Vardell Edited Transcript – January 8, 2016 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 13 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections I’ve done a little bit of exploration of French children’s poetry, and it’s few and far between. But I’m not sure if that’s just because I haven’t dug into it a little bit, or -SV: It’s actually very popular in France. There’s a whole company that specializes -ST: But historically, I guess more, I was looking at that. So was there any older material? I think so, yes, because I was having -- anyway -SV: Yes, I love that idea. In the middle of all of this, I was editor of Bookbird for a bit. NJ: Right. SV: And that’s an international journal of children’s literature, and in my editorship, I wanted to emphasize poetry. So the last page of every issue was a poem, for kids, by a different poet from around the world. And so it was fun to explore. So I have those contacts too. And yes, I would love to do that. But it is quite daunting. First of all, the communicating with international poets is much slower. First you have to track them down, and then you have to tell them who you are. They have to figure out, What? And you have to figure out what language you’re communicating in. Typically there’s rights issues too, because a lot of them have publishers they want you to go through. And then they’re not fast in responding. I mean, most people have a much saner way of life than we do. They take six-week vacations, and they take a week to get back to you. NJ: August – the whole country. SV: Right, right. So my urgency is not their urgency. So it would be a long-term project. I don’t -- I would like to revisit that, but it would definitely take some doing. And then the characters of the different language -NJ: The editing you’d have to have. SV: It’s – yes. NJ: And Janet brought this up. I think, I don’t know how it usually works in anthologies, but you pay royalties to every poet. SV: Yes, yes. NJ: Is that unusual in an anthology? SV: No, poets get paid. We’ve actually paid more than average, though. We’re kind of proud of that. From what I’ve learned, poets typically get, typically, a hundred dollars per poem for an anthology. NJ: A one-time. Sylvia Vardell Edited Transcript – January 8, 2016 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 14 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections SV: One time. Sometimes more, sometimes 200. That’s fairly generous, but that’s about it. But where they make their money is then their poem is out there, and this is awful, but textbooks and tests want to use the poem, and they pay big to the poet to use the poem there, and that’s where poets make more money. ST: Wow. SV: How about that?! NJ: I did not know that. SV: Yes. NJ: So, if Lee does a collection, an anthology of Paul Janeczko, for example -SV: It’s a flat fee typically. I think Lee might pay $200 a poem, because his books -- he’s more known, they sell a lot. I would bet Paul pays a hundred, but I don’t know. But in our first four books, we paid per poem per book, so it’s an ongoing royalty, but it was peanuts. I think it was -- I think it’s 2 cents per poem per book, which sounds like nothing, and it was a labor of love for all of us. We didn’t know if it was going to sell or not, and poets were like, We love you, Janet and Sylvia, here, it’s great. But it’s ended up being more like $800 a year for some -- yes! -- for some poets, because the books have done pretty well. NJ: I was going to ask, how -SV: Yes. I mean, our money that we make, we just plow right back into the books. ST: But it’s unique on the market -- for having something for educators to actually integrate poetry. NJ: And the poetry collection. And so the new ones have, the new science one, has its own anthology just for kids. It doesn’t even have -SV: Right, right. That’s brand new. NJ: So that’s a new piece for you. Are you going to continue that? SV: I think so, I think so. What I would like to do, and Janet seems open to this, is that middle school collection, the 6th, 7th and 8th, I’d like to take those poems out and make like a teeny, cool looking rad you know, right? NJ: Right. Do it. SV: Yes. NJ: That would be one that’s almost done. Sylvia Vardell Edited Transcript – January 8, 2016 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 15 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections SV: I think so too, right, right. Minimal art, very graphic looking, but yeah, we’ll see. ST: So you mentioned Bookbird, but you have other columns that you write. SV: Mm-hmm. ST: So could you talk a little bit about your experience. Was that something that you proposed to Book Links or -NJ: She edited it. ST: Edited Bookbird, but you also do a regular for -SV: For Book Links. ST: -- for Book Links – the poems. I just was using it recently and I was going through it and acquiring, trying acquire all the gaps that we didn’t have, SV: Okay, cool. How did that happen? Well, initially I don’t remember exactly. It’s a long time -NJ: I thought it was Laura Tillotson. SV: Right, mm-hmm, yes. I love Laura. Oh, she was so great to work with. And initially, I just submitted articles to Book Links because I liked it. It’s such a practitioner-friendly magazine, and it was a chance for me to mentor a new colleague and a doctoral student, so I wrote with a variety of people just to submit. And I think it was Laura who said, I love what you’re doing with poetry. Would you consider writing something for us? And I was like, Sure, that would be great. And so one thing led to another led to another, and then all of a sudden it became like a column, you know, a regular, and I’m not exactly sure how that happened. I think it was a combination of they liked -- you know what, it really can come down to the editor likes poetry, and I’ve been really lucky. Laura was a fan of poetry, and then Gillian Engberg after her, huge fan of poetry. Now they’re kind of in transition. Gillian’s actually not editing. She moved to Switzerland with her husband. They got married. Unfortunately, the last I heard from her, things were not working out well. The job was not what they thought it was going to be. So I think she’s in transition again. I’m not quite sure. Anyway, yes, they sort of embrace poetry. And another person might have asked you for an article on something, and then they’re like, Thank you, that’s nice. But she wanted another and then another, and then all of a sudden we’re seeing, Well this is going to be a regular installment, which was great, even though the discipline of it – You got it. It’s like, Oh, it’s already a deadline again?! How the heck did that happen? Right, yeah so, there’s some days I cursed Book Links. But I love that they value poetry, and I love that the audience then is getting a steady dose of, Oh, yes, yes, I need to think about poetry. And it’s great for me too. It’s great for the recognition that I am associated with poetry. It’s about my other work, and Janet’s and my Sylvia Vardell Edited Transcript – January 8, 2016 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 16 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections work. It keeps us on people’s radar, basically. So I’m now kind of synonymous with poetry, which is awesome. I love that. But that just sort of happened, and yea, I love that. I love the Book Links. I can’t believe Book Links still exists, honestly. NJ: It doesn’t exist like it used to. SV: Freestanding. I think its greatest value is the online supplement nowadays. NJ: Yes, probably. SV: Because a lot of teachers can’t, or librarians, they can’t afford to subscribe to Book Links. I couldn’t subscribe to Book Links. I get it because I write for it, but otherwise, I couldn’t do it. So that’s a shame. NJ: Could you talk a little about you and Janet, that collaboration, and how that works, especially when you put books together, or maybe even plan programs, but you each bring strengths to it, but just a little bit about that. SV: Okay. Yes it’s great. I love working with her. And she’s like the most responsive person. I guess we both kind of live online, all the time. I guess you guys probably feel the same way, but you can count on that person to respond right away, right? And if they haven’t responded -NJ: You’re worried. SV: -- you’re worried. Is Sylvia okay? NJ: I know. It’s really good. SV: It’s been 20 minutes. SV: I know. It’s so sick, right? But it’s lovely that you have someone so simpatico. And when it comes to academic and these proposals, I write all the proposals. And it’s funny because I’ve been doing a poetry session at the Texas Library Association for 12 years now, and we call it the Poetry Roundup. It’s based on the ALSC thing. I went to the very first ALSC poetry -- was it called a “Blast”? -- and I just loved it, because it was just a session where poets got up and read their work. And I was like, Oh, this is so fun, and we should do it in Texas. So I started it at TLA, and it’s been going on 12 years. I’ve had like a hundred different poets over the years. But now Janet comes every time, and everybody thinks it’s Janet’s roundup. NJ: Okay. SV: Exactly, okay. ST: She’s a presence. Sylvia Vardell Edited Transcript – January 8, 2016 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 17 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections SV: She is a presence, and I love that. So any kind of academic thing, I do all of that. But she’s really -she knows everybody, and so she’s really good about reaching out and saying, Would you like to be part of our proposal? So I’m like, Oh, okay. I put them in, but she’s the contact. In terms of our books, that’s really even more collaborative. Typically, our most productive, like dynamic brainstorming, is when we are physically in the same place. That’s when we launch new things, I would say always. We’ll toss ideas back and forth via email, and we’ll get on the phone and chat, but to really be serious about, Okay, we’re going to do this now -How are we doing for time? Okay? ST: I was just going to say, we have about 5 more minutes. SV: Okay. ST: We should -- I didn’t want to look and interrupt you. SV: No, no, that’s alright. That’s no problem. So we do take great pains to make sure that we’re in the same place a couple times a year, actually more and more and more. This summer -- she’s also a go-getter for getting us to speak to schools and libraries. That’s her doing. She does a lot of that. Do you like to do that? Do you like to go and -NJ: Mm-hmm. SV: Do you? Okay. NJ: I haven’t done any of that -- they’ve stopped doing it. SV: Yes, exactly. There’s not much of it. In-services and that kind of thing. I don’t love it as much as she does. I find it really exhausting -NJ: It is. SV: -- the preparation and the execution, and she’s very energized by it. But she just shows up and she’s Janet. And I’m doing a hundred PowerPoint slides, right, research, articles, readings -NJ: That’s the difference, yeah. But I learn so much when I do them. SV: Oh yes, absolutely, and I try to then transfer that into my writing and my blogging. I mean, it’s all great, but it’s a lot of time and work, yeah. And Janet’s just Janet, and I love that, but she’s like, Well we can go do a week, like we’re going to Millersville University next summer, and I’m like, A week? Okay. So that will just take me a lot of prep time to have something substantive to offer. But that’s great. She gets it now, when she says, Oh, Sylvia, we’re going to talk for a whole day. Okay, I’ll do that, but -- Sylvia Vardell Edited Transcript – January 8, 2016 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 18 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections Yes, so, this summer I was -- she had arranged for me to talk to a school in New Jersey, which was interesting, and those were not poetry lovers, but it was fine. But, because I was in New Jersey where she lives, we knocked out three extra days. I stayed over and we worked, worked, worked for three days. It was really great. That’s when we start to think, Okay, what do we want to do next, and how are we going to take this in that direction? And Janet has lots of crazy ideas that I think are very interesting, but we haven’t committed to yet, like she wants to make toys and -- I know, I know -- card games! NJ: Well, she’s getting this new machine that’s -SV: The 3D printer. This is Janet, right? ST: It’s marvelous. And I think this is actually a really nice spot to end up the recording piece of this, on ideas and what, because I imagine that this will, to be continued. SV: Okay. ST: I can’t imagine that this will be the only time that we’ll get a chance to talk to you, but it’s part of the oral history recordings. SV: I feel like it was too much of my life, though. NJ: Well that’s what it was. This is called your oral history -SV: Okay, alright. It seems weird, but -ST: Well, the reason it doesn’t seem weird to us is that we have been so incredibly grateful for your really tangible support of launching the PoetryCHat vision and what’s happening. NJ: Oh, I know, that huge support -ST: The response has been really -SV: Well, you’re welcome. Let us know what else we can do. ST: Absolutely. SV: There’s lots more. (End of recording) Sylvia Vardell Edited Transcript – January 8, 2016 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 19 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections
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Title: Kim Walker interview [edited transcript]
Part of: Kim Walker interview
Date: 1993-02-25
Type of resource: text
Object custodian: Center for Pacific Northwest Studies
Related Collection: Women in the commercial fishing industry research collection
Local Identifier: walker19930225_transcript
Text preview (might not show all results): Kim Walker Interview 1 Washington Women’s Heritage Project, Center for Pacific Northwest Studies Interview with Kim Walker Interview Date: February 25, 1993 Interviewer: Carole Teshima Morris Location
Show moreKim Walker Interview 1 Washington Women’s Heritage Project, Center for Pacific Northwest Studies Interview with Kim Walker Interview Date: February 25, 1993 Interviewer: Carole Teshima Morris Location: Whatcom County, Washington Transcription by: Megan Bezzo, 2007 June 19 [SIDE A] MORRIS: Can you tell me how old you are, where you’re from, how long you’ve been in Whatcom County? WALKER: Yep. I’m going to be 29 real soon. I’ve lived in Whatcom County for ten years and I went to school in Sultan, Washington. MORRIS: And when was your first experience in the fishing industry? How old were you? WALKER: I was 19 and I met my husband – my husband now – and… MORRIS: Okay, you met when you were nineteen and – WALKER: And I followed him to Alaska. He got a job for me on the Unimak working for [Benickson?] for the Queen. MORRIS: And what is the Unimak? WALKER: The Unimak is an 86- foot power scow tender and a crabber. They used it to crab and – MORRIS: So where was this? WALKER: That was in Bristol Bay. We’d fly to Dutch [Harbor] and take the boat to Bristol Bay and then back to Dutch [Harbor] again. And we’d get ready for crabs. We’d take the crab booms off at the beginning of the season and put the tending booms on and do that again at the end of the season. MORRIS: So you didn’t work the salmon part? And which part of Bristol Bay is that? WALKER: They just did the Nushagak River the first year or two. We might have went to Naknek, you know, once in a while. I really didn’t understand how much bad it’s in. I was up there cooking – I was hired on as cook – and I didn’t know anything. [laughter] I learned how to navigate. Wayne taught me how to navigate. And he was really good at Women in Commercial Fishing Research Collection Center for Pacific Northwest Studies Western Washington University Bellingham WA 98225-9123 Kim Walker Interview 2 that – he taught me well how to do that. But when we were up there and I was cooking for the fishermen, I’d be cooking – I was supposed to cook for the fishermen who delivered to us – and I was cooking three meals a day – constantly – and nobody was coming. Nobody was coming to deliver the fish. Nobody was coming to eat. So I’d be cooking mass quantities of food all the time and running up to the whalehouse, asking, “When are they coming? When are they coming? When are the fishermen coming? [chuckles] “I dunno, I dunno” [inaudible]. I just didn’t know. I thought they were going to come any minute and I oughta have all this food ready and so I was throwing it off the stern and throwing it off the stern because there wasn’t anything I could do with it. I had so much food all the time! MORRIS: So you didn’t understand about the – WALKER: Nothing… and so the second year I was up there and, “When are they coming? When are they coming?” Wayne goes, “Kim, you know they come in on the tide.” [laughter] And I said, “Tide?! What tide?!” He says, “You know, we turn around every six hours – did you ever notice that?” Hell, I don’t notice anything. I was in the galley all the time. MORRIS: So he never explained that, huh? He just exp – WALKER: No. He’s been doing it probably eight to ten years before then and he – it was one of those little things – little basic knowledge things that he didn’t think to explain, or that he needed to explain. It’s something he figured everybody was born with, I don’t know. MORRIS: But you – he taught you to navigate? But he didn’t tell you anything about – WALKER: Well, he had to teach me how to navigate. You know, he did. It wasn’t any skin off his nose to have me slaving all day long for no reason. [laughter] You know, but he had to teach me to navigate because you need, you know, you need the watches. You need people to watch while you’re underway because you travel twenty-four hours a day when you’re traveling. MORRIS: And how many people are on the boat? WALKER: Four. The skipper, the engineer, the cook, and the deckhand. MORRIS: And you were the only woman? WALKER: Mm- hm. MORRIS: And how was that? Women in Commercial Fishing Research Collection Center for Pacific Northwest Studies Western Washington University Bellingham WA 98225-9123 Kim Walker Interview 3 WALKER: Well, it was – it was real isolating at first because there weren’t any women to talk to and nobody that I really knew. It was really strangers that I was supposed to live with and work with and supposed – you know, yo u’re supposed to relate with them and if you don’t know them – and one guy, all he talked about was engines all the time and I couldn’t relate to that. And, uh, there really weren’t any women around. There were native women up there that lived up there and sometimes their kids you would see. MORRIS: They fished and delivered to you? WALKER: Right. MORRIS: So they would probably just be on the boat a little while. WALKER: Yeah. Yeah, they’d come on and they’d eat, you know, and I could talk with people then. I got to where I talked to them a lot. [chuckles] You know, at first I – MORRIS: So the cannery pays you to cook for the tender crew and for the people that fish for the cannery? WALKER: Yeah. Yeah, or anybody that delivers. They’ll take anybody’s fish, really. Not very often they’ll turn somebody away. MORRIS: I see. So it’s not just the cannery operation? WALKER: Well, it is mainly [coughing]. MORRIS: But anybody can deliver to that [tender?] WALKER: Pretty much. Well, it depends, you know. Sometimes, you know, they’re up to capacity and they’re just storing fish and not getting around to tanning them. They we’ll be turning people way but we didn’t do cash or anything so it wasn’t like we had a lot of outsiders. MORRIS: How were you treated by the fishermen? WALKER: Um, pretty good. Pretty good. They didn’t have much to say to me. They liked my cooking and I fed them real good and worked real hard and they appreciated that. MORRIS: So besides cooking and whalewatch that pretty much what you did at the beginning? WALKER: Yeah, well, I worked on deck. I, um, tied up the boat every time we went into the cannery, which was kind of traumatic. [chuckles] Especially that one engineer, Vern – Women in Commercial Fishing Research Collection Center for Pacific Northwest Studies Western Washington University Bellingham WA 98225-9123 Kim Walker Interview 4 he was amazing – because, you know, there’d be one guy up on the bow. You’d come in on the slough and you’d have to get up next to the piling, you’d have to throw the line in the water around the piling, and get it and catch it back up again, and tie off the boat with the big line. And there’d be one guy – the deckhand – would be up on the bow tying up the bow, which is really the hardest one to do because the stern, you know, it just falls right in there. And, uh, I’d be back on the stern with Vern and he would be cussing and swearing and swearing to god that he would never ever work for the so-and-so company again every time we tied up! And the whole first year this friend of ours, Holly, actually flew into Ketchican – no, Kodiak – to get the boat on the first year and Holly was there. And she told me know to tie up the boat. She told me, you know, what you’re supposed to do and I had no problem with it. It never made me nervous. It was just – you know, she was real relaxed teaching me how to do it. But the second year I went out there and Vern was on the stern and he [laughter] – oh god – I would just start sweatin’ every time we had to go up there and tie up that boat because I thought, “Oh god, this is life and death.” And we were only on the stern. [laughter] It was no big deal. I didn’t realize that, you know, that for some reason he would get so uptight. And now he’s a skipper. MORRIS: Do you think he would act that way if it was a guy? WALKER: No, he wasn’t yelling at me. It was just the situation. He wasn’t even – sometimes he’d be critical of the way Wayne was driving but really Wayne drove well. So it really wasn’t that, either. I think it just made him so uptight and, well, it was kind of strange. The tide is very strong in the slough and it is kind of hard to maneuver and everything but, you know, I think it was just a personal problem of his [laughter]. MORRIS: So he was just nervous himself, huh? WALKER: Yeah. MORRIS: Yeah, they have real big tides over there. WALKER: Yeah. They’re twenty- foot tides, I think, normally. MORRIS: And so did you have any friends up there – women friends? WALKER: No – well, the one gal that I met up there, Jennifer, she, uh, just came on the boat one day and said, “Boy! I bet you’d be glad to see a woman about now!” And we hit it off right away. She was real friendly, fishing with her dad who she didn’t really care for. She said he was real grumpy. And, uh, for fun they had a little steam house at the cannery. We’d go in there and have steamed [inaudible] and it was fun getting to know her [background noise]. MORRIS: Well, her dad – was he a longtime fisherman up there? Women in Commercial Fishing Research Collection Center for Pacific Northwest Studies Western Washington University Bellingham WA 98225-9123 Kim Walker Interview 5 WALKER: Yeah. He’d fished up there – I don’t know – probably since he was twenty or something. MORRIS: And cooked, right? WALKER: Mm hmm. MORRIS: So what did the Norwegians think about women on boats there? WALKER: Oh, they – well, its widely known that women are bad luck, as well as anything green and, you know, real superstitious. MORRIS: Is that where those come from, do you think, those superstitions? WALKER: What? MORRIS: From the Norwegians? WALKER: Um, I think they, you know, there was a lot of them fishing for that cannery so to my mind it was. But, I think, probably most of Europe. Of course, the Norwegians were the ones who were out there a lot but I don’t know. I don’t really know where it came from. I just know that it was there. But, you know, I think anybody would, you know, be happy with you if you work hard and do your best. It was the second year I was up there that – I think it was Burt Isaacson – or Corey – I’m not sure, I don’t remember who it was. But a great, big, huge guy with hands like bear paws – just humongous hands – and we were having a barbeque at the Queen and he came up to me and patted me on the shoulder, “Thonk thonk thonk” and said, “Aye, doin’ a good job cookin’.” I said, “Oh, thanks.” So it was – but he was the same one when my husband was cooking on the [Dugons?] and having to go down and clean out the bilges, the bilge pumps, and do all this stuff that the engineer was supposed to be doing but he was doing ‘cause the engineer was lazy and having to come up and cook and, you know, all this stuff going wrong and the same guy came on then and went up to Dave, who was the skipper, and said, “Hey, you sure have a lousy cook!” [laughter] And Wayne got real angry with him and chased him off the boat [laughter]. But anyway… MORRIS: Was it hard using [inaudible][laughing]. WALKER: Oh no, that was – Wayne had cooked, you know, like in ’76 or something like that and it was ’85 by the time [inaudible]. But, uh, so that guy never hadn’t spoke to Wayne all those years up until then when I came up there. MORRIS: So you felt like you were pretty much accepted ‘cause you did a good job? Women in Commercial Fishing Research Collection Center for Pacific Northwest Studies Western Washington University Bellingham WA 98225-9123 Kim Walker Interview 6 WALKER: As far as I knew. It’s only been since I’ve worked, you know, as a deckhand, really, that I’ve been feeling more of the prejudice, I guess you could call it. Basically, it’s – you know, for example, last couple years we’d be out, you know, on the Naknek River or something hot and heavy fishing and everybody’s wondering about prices and this and that and some guy that we’d hired off the beach - that had never been up there before – and I were standing out on the deck and some fishermen would come by and ask him, “Well, what’s the price?” and “What’s goin’ on?” and I think that was the year of the strike – ’90 – and, uh, and he didn’t know anything, you know. He didn’t know anything. He just kinda stood there and I’d speak up and tell them but they would naturally just ask him, you know, because he was the guy [background coughing] and assumed immediately that he know what he was talking about, you know. And he didn’t. He had no idea. MORRIS: So what boat was this? WALKER: That was on the Pavlov which, you know, we were in the Naknek River all the time. A lot of Italians. MORRIS: Is that a [inaudible] boat, too? WALKER: No, that depends. MORRIS: And so why don’t you tell me sorta the progression of boats that you worked on and how um... WALKER: Okay, there’s the Unimak – that’s two years and, uh, they’d last two-and-ahalf to three months we’d up there. And the Dorothea was the third year. And, I believe we took the Dorothea up from Seattle – that was the first time I went up the Inside Passage. And, um – MORRIS: Did you cook on that boat, too? WALKER: Yes, I was cooking then, too. MORRIS: Were you working on the decks by then or…? WALKER: Yeah, I was. I was working every year more and more, you know. Um, learning, you know, more and more all the time. MORRIS: Was that about the same size as the Unimak? WALKER: It was the same size. Well, it might have been slightly smaller. It’s a little bit different setup. The Unimak was a crab boat in the wintertime and the Dorothea never Women in Commercial Fishing Research Collection Center for Pacific Northwest Studies Western Washington University Bellingham WA 98225-9123 Kim Walker Interview 7 would be because it had paint on top of the deck so it would be up too high to put any pots on. MORRIS: So, okay, keep going. WALKER: Oh. And then right off the Dorothea, um, the previous winter Wayne had gotten his master’s license so he was hired to run the processor [clears throat] so we didn’t even take the Dorothea back home. Somebody else did. And we hopped on [Mister B?] processor. MORRIS: And that’s [Benickson’s]? WALKER: Yeah, that’s a crab boat out of Dutch Harbor with a crab processor. MORRIS: And so how did that go? WALKER: I was hired on – I was told – as cook onto this boat but once I got on I found out that the cook was staying and I was supposed to be the galleyhand, which was a real blow because the galleyhand does all the dishes, does everybody’s laundry, does [chuckle] – I mean, it was just a horrible job. It’s the worst job on the whole boat besides processing, I think. But, uh – MORRIS: So how many people were on deck? WALKER: Oh, there’s two deckhands on that boat plus the mate plus the skipper. There’s a chief engineer, there’s an assistant engineer, there’s the cook, the ga lleyhand, um, I think that’s – oh, and the process [room?] – and that makes up all the crew. And then there’s anywhere from 25 to 30 processors and, um, they just do all that processing down below. MORRIS: And they live on board? WALKER: Uh huh. Yeah, everyone lives aboard. And [unclear] so by the second season I was cooking and that was okay. It wasn’t – um, I could plan a menu, you know – it wasn’t as stressful as cooking for the fishermen. I, you know, I knew when everything was going to happen, I knew how much, and so it was a lot less stressful that way. Plus, I was the skipper’s wife so nobody complained [laughter] too much. I don’t know, I only got one complaint the whole time. But it was some guy that had only been on there two days so I didn’t take it too seriously. But, um, then I worked as a deckhand, I believe [on a B?], which was really the most fun. I had tons of fun but this whole time I was also bookkeeping, I was doing all the payroll and Wayne and I kinda shared it but it got to be more and more my job all the time. And so I was gradually doing more and more of the paperwork. But the deckhand part was really fun. Women in Commercial Fishing Research Collection Center for Pacific Northwest Studies Western Washington University Bellingham WA 98225-9123 Kim Walker Interview 8 MORRIS: Why was that? WALKER: I just liked being outside. I liked the variety, and, you know, I just felt – being in a galley all the time just, I don’t know, you’re just always enclosed and smelling like food and, [chuckles] I don’t know, I just didn’t like it after a while. I got real tired of cooking and real tired of ordering food and I just got real burned out on it. So deckhand – total deckhand – was really a change of pace. MORRIS: So what kinds of things did you do as a deckhand? WALKER: We’d tie up the crab boats, we’d anchor up and we’d, uh, stand watches – two people on watch all the time – so I’d be on watch with Wayne all the time. And the other deckhand would be on with [Nate?] all the time. And, uh – MORRIS: Was there any, like, heavy physical work or…? WALKER: Yeah, oh yeah. We ran the crane. That’s not heavy physical work but you have to pretty skilled, you have to be pretty good at it because you’re tying up these crabbers next to you and lifting off these brailers of crab and, you know, from way down, you know, almost to the water line clear up the sides of the process area and a lot of times its windy and the boat’s rockin’ down there and the wind’s blowing crab – you know, the brailers flare out and so it was exciting. MORRIS: Is it dangerous ever or just sorta…? WALKER: Yeah, so-so. I mean, it depends. Um, this one crabber who is kinda a hotdog guy, but he did really good – he’s a good fisherman – um, came out and delivered to us in 100 knot winds. It was the first of August, blowing 100 and it was just crazy but, you know, it was kinda fun because it was so crazy. [laughter] MORRIS: And you’re where when you’re doing this? WALKER: We’re anywhere on the Aleutian chain, uh, I think then we were at the Islands of [Four Mountains?]. We went – we’ve gone all the way out to Kiska. MORRIS: So when it’s that stormy, um, what’s the danger of…? WALKER: Well, um, not really too much if you know what you’re doing. The main thing is just if the lines break, you know, and then the crab boat starts drifting or a lot of times when you have a boat alongside you and it’s blowing so hard our anchor will start dragging, you know, and depends on where you’re at. If you’re blowing towards the beach then that’s no good but I don’t think we were that time. So it was okay. I mean, someone’s always in the wheelhouse so it really wasn’t any of my concern. It was just Women in Commercial Fishing Research Collection Center for Pacific Northwest Studies Western Washington University Bellingham WA 98225-9123 Kim Walker Interview 9 actually getting around on deck could have been dangerous but, I mean, you have no choice. You just had to go forward. Couldn’t hardly move MORRIS: So, um, how far out are you? Do you ever go, like, way out in the water or…? WALKER: Way out in the…? – MORRIS: How far from shore are you when you do that? WALKER: Uh, usually we’re pretty close. We anchor up in the little, you know, little, tiny bays and, you know, we stay pretty close – MORRIS: [So the boat will stay…?] WALKER: Yeah, we’d try to get into a central area where the crabbers don’t have to go a long, long way to deliver. MORRIS: What kind of crab? WALKER: Uh, we were doing brown crab, which is a king crab and, um, we did red crab, and uh, [operiah?]. I don’t think they’re using the brown crab fishery anymore. If there is, it’s real short. MORRIS: And how big was this boat? WALKER: This was – I can’t remember – I think it was 130 or 140 feet. MORRIS: And we already talked about the crew. WALKER: Yeah. MORRIS: Well, how’d you feel on this boat? Did you feel - were you the only woman crew member? WALKER: No, um, let’s see… when I first got on as the galley hand, the cook was a woman and there were women who were processors. Um, no other women on the actual crew. There was a very few women processing, actually. It was only, you know, two or three out of twenty-something. MORRIS: So you had more people to talk to? WALKER: Oh yeah! Yeah. Women in Commercial Fishing Research Collection Center for Pacific Northwest Studies Western Washington University Bellingham WA 98225-9123 Kim Walker Interview 10 MORRIS: So when you started working on the deck, were you the only woman deckhand? WALKER: Oh yeah. MORRIS: And how did that go? WALKER: Oh, well – let me think – it was… with some of the processors on there, some of them thought that their whole goal in life was to be a deckhand and they were all grumbling and mumbling that I only got it because I was the skipper’s wife and blah blah blah. MORRIS: Men that were…? WALKER: Yeah, yeah, that were processors. But, you know, it was probably true in a way – well, it was probably true – but, I don’t know, I did real well at it so… I don’t know, I remember one time [chuckles] they went through this phase where they all had to help me, you know, they were out there helping me tie up to the dock, you know, whic h is pretty easy. Well, it’s not – it wasn’t real easy. I was doing the stern line and these are really big lines and you just have to pull and pull ‘em in and pull ‘em in and that gets kind of hard but not any real big deal. So they’d come up behind me and help me pull these lines in. But when I went to try to tie it off on the cleat the guys are still pulling on the line so I, you know, I’m kinda, “Yeah, okay, thanks”, you know and kinda yanking on it to try to make them let go but these guys didn’t have much on the ball and he just kept pulling, you know [laughter] and I’m going, “Come on, Tony, let go! Let go of the line!” [laughter] And as I started to tie it off, you know, we’d start drifting back out again. So I had to yell at him so then he went off in a big sulk and a huff and everything. MORRIS: What was going on there? [Inaudible] WALKER: Yeah, you know, he’d been processing for a while and, I don’t know, he really wasn’t very intelligent [laughter]. Unfortunately he just wasn’t and he just didn’t get it, I guess but he was just trying to help. He was a nice guy but… MORRIS: Well, did you ever feel like the other deckhands were…? WALKER: There was this one other deckhand and we got along real well. He was a couple years younger than I am and he was just real fun to work with. I had a lot of fun and, uh, [clears throat] I don’t know, that was really fun. And after that I was bookkeeper on a boat – just plain bookkeeper – ‘cause Seattle had done most all of our books for us and then they wanted us to do it all so I was hired on as fulltime bookkeeper but really there wasn’t enough to do. It was kind of boring and I was – I would’ve gone back to being deckhand if I could have, if one of them would have quit or something I would’ve done it again. Women in Commercial Fishing Research Collection Center for Pacific Northwest Studies Western Washington University Bellingham WA 98225-9123 Kim Walker Interview 11 MORRIS: And so how many years were you just deckhand? WALKER: Um, I was only deckhand for one season. I think I cooked for – lets see, galley hand once – we did this all year ‘round, this was all during winter and this wasn’t during summer. But, um, I was cook for a couple seasons and deckhand for one and I kept the books. So we were on there for two years and were out there all the time so I don’t know. It’s kind of all gotten mixed up in there. But I managed to last for two years. Then we were really burned out on it. It was really hard, you know. You had to come in to town to offload all your product about once a month and everybody would just go crazy drinking and partying up all hours of the night. All these weird things would happen and it was just – we didn’t like it at all. I was real stressful and we had to try to rein everybody in. We got a lot of gray hairs and – MORRIS: [In Dutch Harbor?] WALKER: Yeah, it was in Dutch Harbor which is known for being a wild place now. They’d just go there and get drunk and it’s just amazing. So we got real burned out on that. MORRIS: What about your wages? Do you think you were paid fairly? WALKER: Oh, I was paid really well. Yeah. I think so, yeah. MORRIS: … equal to the other deckhands? WALKER: Well, Wayne paid me on the, um, processors. So he was real interested in what I got paid and nobody [laughter] nobody, um, you know, none of the owners ever said anything about, you know, “He can’t pay her that much!” or anything. You know, they just let him pay his crew whatever he thought they were worth so he had control of that. MORRIS: [clears throat] So you ran in the summer, too or just the winter? WALKER: Yeah, we ran – lets see – I think [clears throat] uh, red crab was in June or something. We did that one time. And um – ‘cause I know I’ve never been home during the summer [chuckles] – but, uh, I don’t know. Yeah, we ran all year. MORRIS: So are you still on that boat or do you? WALKER: No, we got – we only did that for two years and, um, after that we went on the Labrador, I think, which was another crabber-tender. That was another salmontending job. And, uh, we took that up from Seattle with one prop. We ran this boat with one prop the whole season long. So it was very slow. We worked out at Peterson Point Women in Commercial Fishing Research Collection Center for Pacific Northwest Studies Western Washington University Bellingham WA 98225-9123 Kim Walker Interview 12 cannery in Nacknick and, um, the people that owned the boat just weren’t, you know, it wasn’t like the Queen anymore where you could kinda just order what parts you needed and not, you know, think about, you know, it would come sooner or later. And with these people you’d order it and they’d say, “Yeah, yeah, yeah,” and nothing would ever come. So, oh you know, a prop is pretty expensive to ship up and stuff but… yeah, they probably lost just as much money on how slow we were. [laughter] MORRIS: Is that the same size boat as the other two? WALKER: No, it was a little bit bigger. It was about 100 feet or so. Pretty big. MORRIS: Same size crew? WALKER: No. We had, um, five people on that one for some reason. A lot of times – I was cooking again – and, uh, I was just not very confident about working out on decks. I really wasn’t. I just thought, “Oh god, it’s just too big of a responsibility.” I don’t know what it was I was thinking. It was probably because Vern traumatized me [laughter] in that way. But I did fine on The [B?] so I don’t know what I was thinking. It just took me a long time to say, “Hey, I’m not going to cook anymore” and “forget it. I’m just not going to do it.” MORRIS: So you don’t do it anymore? WALKER: No, not as a job, no. But I do cook, yeah. We, um, trade off now cooking. MORRIS: And so after the Labrador? – WALKER: After the Labrador we were working on the oil spill. And that was just a little, um, 32-foot [gillner?] and we were just a water taxi they called us. We would take the crews, you know, from the barges they lived on to the beaches where they were going to go work, mop up the oil. MORRIS: What did you? – WALKER: That was just Wayne and I. MORRIS: Have you ever run a boat completely on your own? WALKER: Mmm mmm, no. Wayne’s been trying to encourage me to do it but the only think I’m chicken about is landing the boat at a dock or next to another boat or, you know, a big [scow?]. I ran this little 32- footer [End of Tape 1] Women in Commercial Fishing Research Collection Center for Pacific Northwest Studies Western Washington University Bellingham WA 98225-9123 Kim Walker Interview 13 [SIDE B] MORRIS: When you were doing the oil spill – or at any time – did you have any kind of feel for how many women were out working on boats or…? WALKER: Well, there weren’t many women actually running the boats that I knew of. They were mainly there with their husbands. Um, another couple we knew – well, two other couples we knew – [clears throat] were fishermen and had hired their boats out. We were running this boat for a friends of ours and, uh, they always fished together and so I guess you could call them the co-captains but, you know, they never drove; I never saw them driving and the only time that one of them started driving was when they saw me driving. You know, then they started [chuckles] [talkin’?] the boat, too. “Well, if she can do it, I could do it.” [chuckles] But, uh, [clears throat] there was a lot of women up there. Got to know a couple people pretty good. MORRIS: What about Bristol Bay? Were there any women running their own boats there [inaudible]? WALKER: Um, last year, I saw a native gal running one boat – I just saw her – and, uh, another gal who delivered with her boat and permit. Um, not very many, I didn’t know. That one other gal, she’s nobody I’d see up there. MORRIS: So, um, I mean, obviously this is the way you make your living. So you’d go do it, but you mentioned that you were never home in the summer. Does that ever bother you? WALKER: Yeah, it gets um – yeah, at first – the first year I went up there I felt so stressed that I was never going to do it again, you know. Never again, no way. And the second year I wasn’t going to do it again and the third year I was, “Okay, okay”, you know. But I gradually did, like, actually like it. MORRIS: And what do you like about it? WALKER: I liked having, um, the money that we could make together up there and then having the time off together. I think we do real well together, my husband and I, and uh, we – we don’t do as well if we are separated, you know. He used to fish for herring and go away for a month or so and that didn’t seem to do us any good at all. So it’s actually worked out just fine. MORRIS: And you have no children? WALKER: No, not so far. MORRIS: Have you thought about starting a family? Women in Commercial Fishing Research Collection Center for Pacific Northwest Studies Western Washington University Bellingham WA 98225-9123 Kim Walker Interview 14 WALKER: Yeah, mmm hmm. And we were trying to figure out what we would do if that actually happened and, uh, some people we know bought their own tenders and they take their baby up with them for the [Southeast Fishery?], which is all inside water and you don’t tend to run into the real rough stuff. Um, you know, but we don’t know our own boat so we’d be at the mercy of [clears throat], you know, whoever’s boat we’re on and we might have to pay extra insurance or, you know, we’d be prepared to do that and we’d probably have to hire somebody to be watching the kid pretty much full time. The last two years we’ve just been running with three people total on the crew – the deckhand, engineer, and skipper. And we all switch off cooking meals – cooking dinner. MORRIS: And what boat is this? WALKER: Well, lets see… we were on the uh – okay, after the oil spill we were on the Pavlov , um, which is another crabber-tender. And that was the first year we went with three people on the crew. And we, um, kinda didn’t worry about cooking a whole lot. We didn’t have it very organized about who was switching off or anything like that. Um, it was sort of understood that I would be doing the cooking, you know, which I thought wasn’t very fair [chuckles]. You know, because I was working just as hard as everybody else and I didn’t think it was very fair for me which I blame my husband for… totally. “Why should I cook, you know? Why is it me?!” [laughter] So, but he ended up quitting – our engineer ended up quitting on us – halfway through the season so we hired somebody else and that’s when I put my foot down and said, “Well, you know, we oughta start switching off, trading whoever cooks dinner and the rest of the meals we’ll take care of ourselves.” And we traded off doing dishes and so we had all this written out on the calendar and it worked out a lot better. I was a lot happier and nobody else seemed to mind. So it worked out pretty good. MORRIS: And so are you still on that boat? WALKER: No, we went back on the Dorothea again this last year for [Vandickson’s?] and, um, [clears throat] it’s the boy Vandickson now. The old man died so he’s been running it the last two, three years. And, uh, we did the same three-person crew, different engineer – who also quit – so we, you know, we went up for the herring and salmon trips these last two years with three people and, um, one fishery – you know, we’d go to Prince William Sound and then we’d go up to [Tobiack?]. The first year we went up to [Norton?] Sound after that so it was a pretty long fishery and I think it’s just really a burn-out for people that haven’t done it a lot, you know. We can stick together ‘cause we were together up there and it wasn’t that big of a deal. We were used to it. But we have a hard time keeping our engineers [chuckling]. MORRIS: So how long of a time period is that? Women in Commercial Fishing Research Collection Center for Pacific Northwest Studies Western Washington University Bellingham WA 98225-9123 Kim Walker Interview 15 WALKER: The first year we were gone 150 days. Last year we were gone 140 days. So five months. MORRIS: So have you been taking the rest of the year off ? WALKER: Mm hmm. MORRIS: - or do you go out again? WALKER: Well, actually, no. Not this last winter but the winter before I worked part time data- inputting at an office in town. And this last year I was getting my sea time together for, um, my license, for my master’s license. And I got it approved this last week so I can go for that next winter. MORRIS: So you’ve got your license? WALKER: No, I’m approved – my time is all put together, which takes a lot of – MORRIS: Yeah, what does that involve? WALKER: Well, you have to write up on a company letterhead all your sea time on every boat you’ve been on and have a representative from the company – or the owner of the boat – sign the time and sometimes chase them down. Then you gotta get a physical, you gotta take a CPR and a first aid class. Then take all that down to, um, Seattle to the Coast Guard. MORRIS: Now, what do they count as sea time? Any time you’re on the boat or? – WALKER: They give you, um, I believe that they give you now, in Seattle, eight hours days for every day that you’re out there. They give you eight hours a day. These boats that I’ve been on classify as fishing vessels. And they used to give you twelve hours a day. They used to give you a day and a half for each day you were out there but, um, they don’t do it in Washington anymore. They will in California, I guess, the Coast Guard. MORRIS: Were you able to count the years you were just cooking? WALKER: No, um, what happened there was the Queen – all the years that I worked for the Queen – what they put – they wrote up a letter and they said cook slash deckhand. So I only go half of that time. So my license that I’m approved for is a hundred-ton master and two-hundred ton mate, which is actually pretty small. MORRIS: What does this mean? Women in Commercial Fishing Research Collection Center for Pacific Northwest Studies Western Washington University Bellingham WA 98225-9123 Kim Walker Interview 16 WALKER: It means that I’ll be licensed to run a boat no more than a hundred tons, which are pretty small. I mean, the Dorothea – all those – um, [scows?] were 199. They were just under 200 tons. But what it is, really, is a jumping-off point. All my time after I have my license will go towards, you know, I’ll be a licensed person working, getting that time so, you know, after five years I can re-do it and get a bigger one. Marilyn, um, started off with the same license only three years ago, I think, and she’s been putting some time in on great, big, um, inspected boats and all these fishing boats are uninspected. Now she’s got a – like, her next one is a 2000-ton. MORRIS: [inaudible] WALKER: But she’s – MORRIS: [inaudible] WALKER: Yeah, she’s working way out in [Craddle?] Bay on those big oil rigs and doin’ all this wild stuff. MORRIS: She really stuck with it. WALKER: Mm hmm. Yeah. MORRIS: So what appeals to you about getting your license? WALKER: Well, um, I don’t know. Maybe…[chuckles] my husband has been really encouraging me to run my own boat and this year he wants me to start practicing landing the boat at the dock, you know, and up to other boats and he wants me to start getting the feel of it. He thinks, you know, he’s not really sure if he thinks it’s such a wonderful idea but he’s really encouraging me to run my own boat, to run my own [scowl?]. You know, maybe for the same company and… MORRIS: How do you feel about it? WALKER: Well, I think it’d be great. I’d like to do it. MORRIS: [So you still would want to do it and your husband just kind of supporting you?] WALKER: Mmm hmm.. Well, he’s the one who actually came up with the idea. You know, he, um, I don’t know. I just don’t have much faith in getting hired. I really don’t, you know. I don’t think Vankdickson’s going to hire me to run one of his scowls. You know, he’s got quite a lot of people – right now, anyway – that want to run a scowl that have done it before and, uh, I think what I’d have to do is just practice doing it and, um, have to prove myself. And I think I’d have to prove myself a lot harder than any man Women in Commercial Fishing Research Collection Center for Pacific Northwest Studies Western Washington University Bellingham WA 98225-9123 Kim Walker Interview 17 ever would. Wayne was running – the second year he was up there – the first year he was cooking and then he ended up being engineer/deckhand. The second year he was running the boat, you know, it’s just amazing. MORRIS: Do you think that, um, you or women – may have a confidence problem? WALKER: Oh, I definitely do. I feel very confident on the deck, running machinery, and running the gear and everything right now and tying up boats and splicing lines and anchoring and all that. But, um, yeah, as far as actually taking charge, I don’t know if it’s just me or if it has anything to do with being a woman. I don’t know but I do feel undermined some of the time. I feel, you know, I feel like people don’t give me the credit I think I deserve - the last couple years especially. I don’t know if it’s just me changing or what, but, you know, the year I was on the Pavlov, you know, I’m not prejudiced or anything, but as a group, the Italian fishermen in Naknek River were very, um, discriminatory. They’d call me ‘honey’ all the time, you know, and they’re, um, fatherly figures, I suppose that they were. It was condescending. You know, I was running the crane, you know, and puttin’ their brailers on our deck and dumping the fish in their hulls and I did a fine job. I did just as well, if not better – well, Wayne was better at it than I was – but the engineer was kinda nervous and shaky – I did better than he did and I didn’t rip and brailers. And when the boat’s rocking and stuff you can really get swingy. But, um, [clears throat] at the end of the season I ended up taking all the stuff that we had on our decks and putting it all on the dock and it took hours. It took eight hours just to offload all this stuff and I ran the crane the whole day long. And the Italian guys – one guy in particular who had been real condescending all day long – his two sons were taking the stuff from the dock and driving it away to storage. At the end of the day one of the guys said, “Yeah, you know, you run that crane like your third hand” or something like that. And it was so great because his dad was standing right there and I looked right at him, you know, because he was always telling me how to run it and he was always on the boat right in my ear telling me how to run the crane and – MORRIS: And he was a fisherman? WALKER: Yeah, yeah. He was just – MORRIS: [unclear] WALKER: Yeah. Well, he thought he was a real bigshot and the whole comp any [was his?] and everything, you know, so he thought, you know, that too. But I never noticed him – well, actually, he probably did say a few things to Wayne instructions-wise, but nowhere near what he’d say to me. MORRIS: Are there any other women on tenders, working on tenders? WALKER: Yeah, um – Women in Commercial Fishing Research Collection Center for Pacific Northwest Studies Western Washington University Bellingham WA 98225-9123 Kim Walker Interview 18 MORRIS: I mean in the crew, not to process. WALKER: Yeah. Yeah, um, there are a few these days. Usually, it’s husband and wife teams [background coughing]. Let me think… that’s usually it. There was one ga l that we hired after our engineer quit on the Pavlov that – we were basically left stranded and there was only two of us down on the boat – and we went searching around and we decided that, well, if we had to we’d hire a deckhand and then I would be engineer because I was doing quite a lot of it anyway. I was learning to change the oil and all of that and, uh, we hired this one gal and she just turned out to be a real flake. She just, you know, I was really into, you know, giving her a break and, you now, I thought, you know, it’s really hard to be a gal trying to find a job up there with no strings attached, you know, and wandering around man’s land up there or trying to find a job – it’s tough. But she just was a flake. She just ended up disappearing. She ’d go to town for a reason and she’d never come back. So we just, you know, couldn’t keep her and so we ended up hiring somebody else. But… MORRIS: What do you – WALKER: There was another gal that, you know in the same company, working on a tender – she was cooking. MORRIS: Mm hmm. And what company was this? – WALKER: That was Pan Pacific. MORRIS: Um, and what do you mean no strings attached? WALKER: Well, um, I don’t know anything from personal – I’ve never had to go out and, you know, pound docks or anything, but I know from Marilyn and from this other gal [unclear] from around town that it’s just real hard. And, you know, you’d walk up to a skipper and ask for any jobs and sometimes they’ll [leer?] at them and, “Yeah, I got a job for ya, honey”, you know, [chuckles] and you know, they just really wanted to get a deckhand job. This one gal in town here – you wanna get what you’re qualified for and you often get stuck in the galley cooking. You know, you really don’t get the break. You don’t get the deckhand break. It’s really a big break. You know, an engineer – I don’t know, I’ve never even seen a woman engineer that – you know, engineers are real hard to find. Any engineer. But, um, yeah, it’s hard. It’s really hard for a single woman to go up there and try to find a job - fishing boat or anything. MORRIS: Have you taken any training besides just on the job? WALKER: Uh, no. I will be, though. I’ll be taking a firefighting course for my license and radar course in order to be able to get it. Women in Commercial Fishing Research Collection Center for Pacific Northwest Studies Western Washington University Bellingham WA 98225-9123 Kim Walker Interview 19 MORRIS: And where do you take that? WALKER: Firefighting can happen in the state, which is real expensive – it’s a thousand dollars to go take that course. Or you can go to San Francisco for a hundred and fifty dollars, for some reason. But then, you know – MORRIS: Where do you take? – WALKER: - it costs forty dollars a night to stay down there for a week. MORRIS: Where do you take it from? WALKER: Um, it’s the Coast Guard certified firefighting courses and, you know, they’re for other things, too. They’ re for, I guess, firemen and, you know, they’re just a certified school where you do actual hands-on hauling hoses around, putting out fires, and working with a team, and doing all that. Then you take a test and you get certified and you give that to the Coast Guard for your license. And then a radar course. You learn how to use a radar [chuckle]. Interview: Where do you take it? At a Coast Guard facility? WALKER: No, it’s a private school. MORRIS: And where’s that? WALKER: It’s in North Bend here in Washington. And then there’s one in New Orleans for four hundred and fifty dollars and you can stay there, you know, overnight. For free, well overnight, through the week or however long it lasts. And, uh, you know, they kinda want to get you down there and, uh, but it costs, you know, six hundred dollars to fly round trip – that’s what it was when I checked, anyway. So that doesn’t really save you anything, either. MORRIS: Unless you want to go on vacation. WALKER: Yeah, Wayne was goin’, “Yeah, let’s go to New Orleans!” And then he found out how much plane tickets were and “Ugh.” MORRIS: Well, is there anything else that you want to comment on? I mean, you could talk some more [another time?]. Is there anything else you have on your mind now that’s…? Do you feel like there’s opportunities? Um, you say you don’t think you’re going to get hired. Women in Commercial Fishing Research Collection Center for Pacific Northwest Studies Western Washington University Bellingham WA 98225-9123 Kim Walker Interview 20 WALKER: Well, I think that it’s, you know, this particular company, which who even knows if it’s going to be around next year. But if he sees me land the boat, you know, I’d have to prove myself like that. He wouldn’t – well, and then the other thing is, um, that fishing’s in a real slump right now, you know, and there’s a lot of guys not getting hired. A lot of companies are laying people off so now is a real hard time for me to even to ask for anyt hing. So, you know, but during boom years or something if there was a shortage I’d probably get a break [chuckles]. But, I don’t know. It’s really hard to say with him. I mean, his dad would have never ever hired a woman to run one of his boats but he might, you know. He’s about forty or so and… MORRIS: What’s his name? WALKER: ___. It was ____ __., yeah. But, uh, yeah, I don’t know. I really don’t have much confidence in this company to start with. MORRIS: But you still feel like it’s worthwhile to pursue your license? WALKER: Oh definitely because, um, you know, I could run a charter boat. You know, I could do something with it – freight or tow – I don’t really know if I’d have a tug and towing license. I don’t think I would. MORRIS: Yeah, what kind of license is this for? WALKER: It’ll be, uh, - well maybe it is – Master Freight and Towing. I don’t know. Master of Freight and Towing. MORRIS: [unclear] WALKER: I don’t know if they use that anymore, though. I’m really not sure. They did when Wayne got his. His is Master of Freight and Towing but they’re changing the laws and making them more strict and all the time, every year, they make all these changes. So I don’t know really. They’re giving me a pretty small license. So they gotta take it, I guess. Like the guy said – one of these sea school guys – kind of a, “Lady, you gotta cram for the exam.” MORRIS: Where is that? WALKER: They’re everywhere, in Seattle and.... But, uh, yeah, it’s a five hundred dollar course, six hundred dollar course. You can pay more if you want. But the one guy, the one class in Seattle said, “Yeah, it’d be great if you had your license before you were 30, you know? Being a woman and all.” [chuckles] Yeah. [laughs] MORRIS: So do you take your exam on a boat? Women in Commercial Fishing Research Collection Center for Pacific Northwest Studies Western Washington University Bellingham WA 98225-9123 Kim Walker Interview WALKER: No, this is down at the Coast Guard Station down in Seattle. MORRIS: So they never actually see you doing – WALKER: They have an exam room. MORRIS: Is it kind of simulated? WALKER: No, you do charts – you do an exam on the charts – you do an exam on the rules of the road, and you do an exam – a couple of them, I think – on the CFRs, which are the federal regulations. You just learn how, you know how they ask you a question, you have to learn how to look it up, you know. MORRIS: All this kindda stuff… WALKER: Yeah, and all these manuals. MORRIS: Okay, well… do you have anything else? WALKER: I don’t think so. [chuckles] MORRIS: Okay, well thanks a lot, Kim. [END OF TAPE] Women in Commercial Fishing Research Collection Center for Pacific Northwest Studies Western Washington University Bellingham WA 98225-9123 21
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Title: Joyce Sidman interview
Date: 2015-02-15
Description: Joyce Sidman is a Newbery Honor winning children's author and poet.
Digital Collection: PoetryCHaT Oral History Collection
Type of resource: text
Object custodian: Special Collections
Related Collection: PoetryCHaT Collection
Local Identifier: SidmanJoyce_20150227
Text preview (might not show all results): Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections PoetryCHAT Joyce Sidman ATTENTION: © Copyright Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. "Fair use" criteria of
Show moreWestern Washington University Libraries Special Collections PoetryCHAT Joyce Sidman ATTENTION: © Copyright Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. "Fair use" criteria of Section 107 of the Copyright Act of 1976 must be followed. The following materials can be used for educational and other noncommercial purposes without the written permission of Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. These materials are not to be used for resale or commercial purposes without written authorization from Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. All materials cited must be attributed to Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. This interview was conducted with Joyce Sidman on February 27, 2015, in the Special Collections Conference Room, Western Libraries in Bellingham, Washington. The interviewers are Nancy Johnson and Sylvia Tag. ST: Let’s start with your early writing. JS: Well, I’m thrilled to be here, being recorded. I think I was born a writer in many ways and always enjoyed words and always enjoyed putting them together, and probably put a few too many of them together for my mother’s liking. And also remember getting sent out in the hall for talking during class. So I think words were always vital to me. But I also think that a poet’s way of looking at things in metaphor is also a part of who I am, and that’s something that I think all children have. I remember walking on the beach with my nephew when he was only four or so, and he would be picking up shells and saying, Look, Aunt Joyce, it’s a hat. Look, Aunt Joyce, it’s a horn. Look, it’s a wing. And just that automatic integration of his imagination and the tactile reality of the world was so natural to him. And I think of that as kind of the basis of poetry, connecting, connecting things, finding ways to connect things and make patterns. And I do think you can be born with that. I think it can be cultivated also. But it always felt right to me to connect things like that, to compare things to other things and make meaning with words. And I loved finding that in books, and I loved making it myself. But I don’t think I really thought of myself as a writer until probably middle school or high school. And then there was a very, very patient teacher who would read my poetry, anguished poetry, and always find something nice to say about it. And I think she was some of the reason that I kept writing poetry anyway. ST: Were you writing in private as well, was this assignments, or was it something that you found -- I think you mentioned finding someone you trust to share, was that the beginning of that, or a person or…? Joyce Sidman Edited Transcript – February 27, 2015 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHAT) 1 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections JS: Yes, I think…I think I had friends who were also interested in writing, and we would share with each other, but I think teachers were really important because friends weren’t honest, and teachers were a little bit more honest. And teachers could tell you, you know they could look you in the eye and say, You have a gift for this. You love to do this. You should keep doing this. And I think that’s something that teachers can do that no one else can do. Parents can do it, but kids don’t always believe parents. They know that parents are positive no matter what sometimes, and so I think teachers are just so critical in that way of really saying to a child, You are good at this, or, You love this and you should keep doing it. NJ: You didn’t go to college, though, to be a poet. JS: Well, I did…I wrote through college. In fact, I had two independent tutorials. I went to Wesleyan where you could basically do whatever you wanted to. And two different professors had writing tutorials with me, one poetry and one short story. But I was not an English major because basically I didn’t like the other English majors. They were too snooty. So I decided I wanted to learn German because I had German background, and so I majored in German instead and studied German literature, and went to Germany. But I was a secret English major. I really loved English courses and took a lot of them, so I was really into literature then, but I just couldn’t stand to hang out with the English majors. It’s terrible to admit. ST: But you were in school, maybe, to be educated, because being a German major isn’t practical in that sense -- so you had the opportunity to go to college and learn. JS: Yes. I did, yes. ST: But without thinking necessarily where -JS: Well, I was just going to say, I think my parents really believed in a liberal arts education. I grew up in New England, and it was a kind of accepted course, and maybe not even that I needed to be thinking about a career, because I was a woman. And I did feel like when I graduated from college, I needed to work and support myself, but I was not shunted into one career or another. And in the back of my mind I always assumed that I would be writing, and that’s what I would doing. NJ: What is the distance between when you graduated from college and your first public, whether it was published, but your first public writing? JS: Besides high school? NJ: Mm-hmm. JS: Well, let me think about that. I did send poems to adult journals when I was just out of college, and I think I had a couple of them accepted then and then later when my kids were young. I had children by the time I was, let’s see, 28 -- 28 and 30 I had my two kids. And I was sending out adult poems whenever I could. And then I think I just got immersed in motherhood and reintroduced to children’s literature and just remembered all these books that I loved and how the authors put their words together and how evocative they were and how much my children loved them. And I think that’s when I Joyce Sidman Edited Transcript – February 27, 2015 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHAT) 2 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections started thinking, You know, this might be your world. I think you have to find your people. You have to find where you belong, and, you know, it’s kind of an extrapolation of the not liking English majors, I was not enthralled with the world of adult literary people, and I feel like I needed that wakeup call with my children. And I just -- the children’s literature world just felt so much more comfortable to me. It felt like people that had imagination but they were friendly and they support each other and they love to play, and it’s just all the things that I loved about writing in one place. ST: And lack of critique, maybe, from your adult community, or? JS: Yes, I think it’s the competitiveness that really, I mean, I have a writers’ group and we critique each other’s work, but we do it with love, and we do it to support each other. And I felt like that was lacking a little bit in the adult literature world, so, but I don’t in the children’s literature world. NJ: Have you always been a part of that group, or is that after you published some work? JS: I joined a group in Connecticut before I was ever -- my children grew up in Connecticut, or at least they were little in Connecticut. They were born in Connecticut. And I joined a group, and this is a lovely coincidence. That teacher who encouraged me in high school, she lived in Connecticut. That’s where I went to high school. And after I’d followed my family around, as my husband was training to be a doctor all over the country, we ended up back in Connecticut, and she invited me to her writers’ group, so I was in her writers’ group. And she was still writing poetry, and I was writing poetry, and it was just like, Oh, this is so wonderful to be with Marsha again. I had to learn to call her Marsha instead of Mrs. Sanderson. And we would walk dogs together, and she knew my kids, and so it was just this wonderful coincidence. And there were other children’s writers. And then we moved from Connecticut, but wherever I’ve gone, I have found compatriots. And it really helps me to have that core group of people that support each other, and also can be honest with each other. NJ: Is she still alive? JS: No. NJ: Did she know any of your work before-JS: I dedicated my first published book to her. It was a chapbook of adult poetry. I almost brought it for you, and I thought, Well, this is children’s literature. But she knew of that. I gave her a copy, and she was at that time just on the tip of Alzheimer’s, but she really appreciated it. And that was--it was just great to be able to do that, give it to her. ST: And your own parents and your family, do they love your work and-JS: They do. ST: Do you feel known by them? Joyce Sidman Edited Transcript – February 27, 2015 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHAT) 3 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections JS: Oh yes. I think, yes. In the beginning it was a little bit like, So, have you thought about writing a real book, Joyce? Which all children’s literature people. But what they meant was a book that they would read and that they -- you know. And so I can totally understand that now. At the time it irritated the heck out of me, but I understand it now, and they were very supportive, and they love that I’m doing this, and they brag about me, and it’s kind of a fun thing that I can share with them. NJ: And your children, when you were publishing, how old were they when you were first starting to publish the children, your poetry for children, not the chapbook? JS: Right. I think I still have the note that my son wrote me. He took a message from the editor that accepted my first book, and I have it over on my desk. It says, “Call back. Millbrook wants to buy book.” And I think he must have been in the 5th grade or something like that. And so I have that in his little handwriting, you know, up above my desk. So they were -- they were -- I think they were totally floored because they’d been listening to Mom whine for ten years about not getting a book published. I think in a way, I mean who knows what effect you have on your children, but I think in a way it taught them that you can love to do something and you can be passionate about it and you can be -- You can fail over and over and over, and then you can finally triumph. And, if I didn’t teach them anything else, I hope that that’s what I’ve done ST: Well, you lived that. NJ: Yes. JS: Yes. ST: I mean, that’s a powerful example of words over… JS: And I had support from my husband, without whom I would not have been able to fail over and over again, so it was this wonderful sort of family effort of them inspiring me, both with their characters and with the literature that they were reading and my husband supporting me and me cranking it out. ST: Cranking it out. So there were some bumps? I mean, when you say cranking it, that makes me think that maybe there were some desert stretches, or not? JS: There were many, many desert stretches. When I say ten years, that was the time from the idea coming into my head that I wanted to write for children and the birth of my publish. And, in that period I was finding my voice and realizing I couldn’t succeed with novels. I didn’t understand how to. Plot is important. And also selling things to Cricket Magazine and places like that. ST: Okay. JS: You know, kind of getting a readership. And I wrote different kinds of things. I wrote essays for the newspaper, for the op-ed section, and that kind of thing, and just keeping going. I think a lot of the people that are published are the people that love it enough to keep going in the face a lot of rejection. Not everybody, but. Joyce Sidman Edited Transcript – February 27, 2015 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHAT) 4 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ST: Well, Ubiquitous has a bit of a plot. JS: It does. NJ: So, does Winter Bees. A lot of yours do, in some way, and how you envision the plot. JS: Yes. Right, right. NJ: In my class this past week, the question came up, and I’m curious to your take on it: What is the difference then between poetry for children and poetry for adults? JS: Hmm. It’s an interesting question. I think some of it has to do with subject matter and writing about things that are interesting, both to children and adults. I feel like -- I often feel like the poetry that I’m writing is more for me at that age, and I guess a lot of writers feel that way, that you’re writing for the child within you who’s still just floored by the world and excited by the world and believes in magic and gets excited about things, and that’s who I feel like I’m writing for, not necessarily children, but anybody who has that sense of wonder. But I’ve, you know, written adult poems that are about things that children don’t understand yet, or they -- it would hurt them, so I think -- I think subject matter is alive, but sometimes treatment is some of it. NJ: Can you elaborate on what you mean by treatment? JS: Well, I feel like adult poetry has an obscurity to it sometimes that -- or layers to it that children can’t decipher, can’t get under, and it takes an adult mind to work at it and get to that point. Children are -they’re often very literal, and there are even times when I feel I’ve been explicit in a poem, and I talk about it with a class, and they’re like, Oh, I didn’t know that. I didn’t realize that was going on. Some of them will get it, some of them won’t get it, and then you’re wondering, how many children are understanding this? And who -- which children are you writing for? And you can kind of shoot yourself in the foot by wondering that too long. You just have to write for that inner child. ST: Which, I’d be freed up once that first published book comes along so that you ‘re not rethinking, or second guessing, or not? Was there a shift or something? JS: I wish it were that way. NJ: Do you ever stop second guessing? JS: No. NJ: Okay, okay. JS: I think having the first book published is a huge threshold. I will not lie. And actually having the second one published, so you know the first one was not a fluke. ST: There you go. Joyce Sidman Edited Transcript – February 27, 2015 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHAT) 5 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections NJ: Yes. JS: Then you start thinking, Okay, I can tell people I’m a writer, and I can really feel like a writer, and yeah. And that is really huge. And I have many friends who had not had that success, and they’ve been writing as long as I have, and so, you can’t just say, Oh, it’s just as hard with the tenth one as it is the first one, but -- because it’s not, because people know that once you have a published book -- I mean, they’ve never heard of it. They meet you. You say you’re an author. They say, Oh, what did you write? No one has ever heard of anything I’ve written, which is fine. But still, I know that. I know that I have published work, and that’s -- that is really huge. But, I think that your standards start going up and you start thinking to yourself, This is a really stupid subject. I can’t believe I’m thinking about writing this. Or, and I’m going to talk to this in my talk too, you start looking at your writing with loathing. You know, the next day you look at this and you think, Ah, I can’t believe -- I’m just going to rip this up. So you have to fight that. You have to fight your inner editor and just be willing to take risks, the same way you were when you were hungry for publication and you were willing to try anything because nothing else was working. And also people expect certain things of you. This format that I’ve been using, people love that format. And when I do different things, they’re not always open to that. Thankfully my editor is very open to it. But you do still have to fight. You still have to fight that voice in your head. NJ: Could you talk a little bit about your editor, Ann Rider, has edited how many of your books, and what’s that relationship that you have? JS: She has edited every -- all of them except the first two, so that’s eleven, maybe, something like that. And I think we have an unusual relationship in this day in age in that I don’t really send anything to anybody else. She rejects -- she still will turn me down, but I have this trust in her that says to me, If she’s turned it down, then it needs work, then it’s not ready. And I have people in my life who tell me I’m crazy to do that and I should just send manuscripts to somebody else, but there’s just been something about that woman and me that has worked, and she has been the reason that I’ve published all of these books, and they’ve been so beautiful, and they’ve worked. But I kind of like, I don’t want to mess it up, and it’s working well for us. We see things in the same way in a lot of ways, and she’s just so great at choosing the good illustrators. It’s just a really good working relationship. But she doesn’t -she doesn’t agree with everything. NJ: How about that Newberry call? JS: Oh man. NJ: Poetry -- come on! JS: Oh, gosh, that was just so amazing. ST: So walk us through it. Did you have some inklings? So kind of take us from -- Joyce Sidman Edited Transcript – February 27, 2015 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHAT) 6 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections JS: There had been a lot of buzz, and so I’m not one of those authors who’s gonna tell you, Oh, I didn’t even know what day it was, I was off in Costa Rica… Which Pamela Zagarenski was off in Costa Rica when this won the honor. But yeah, there had been a lot talk, I have to admit I was hoping. And I knew when the broadcast was, and it was one of those years when it was, I think, somewhere where it was -for me in Minnesota it was going to be a little bit on the late side. I can’t remember where it was that year, but. So I figured out when the broadcast was and when the committee would be going into -- for the announcements. And I knew from getting a call for the Honor book for Red Sings that they call you before they go out and -- So I thought, Okay, if they don’t call by blah-blah, it’s not meant to be. So I kind of hung around the house, and I had to meet a friend for lunch. She was going to take me out whether it won or not. And so I kind of hung around and -- Well, I didn’t take the dog out, just kind of hung around, you know, cleaned my desk… So then it reached the point, Okay, that’s it. You better get in the shower, you’re going to lunch. So, I got in the shower, came back out, the light was blinking. I thought, Okay, probably my husband. So I press the button, and it’s Cynthia Ritchie and she says, Hello, this is Cynthia Ritchie. I’m calling from the Newberry Award Committee. And it was like the floor had dissolved, and I was like falling through space. It was the most amazing moment. So I listened to her whole tape, the tape of her voice, and then I immediately tried to call her back because I just wanted -- I knew the whole committee would be there, and I just wanted to talk to them. And so I called back and I said, Hello, this is Joyce Sidman, blah, blah, blah… And then they called me back, and it was this whole -it was this whole rigamarole, and that they were finally on the line, and they were all cheering, and it was just -- I will never forget the moment of hearing her voice. It was -- it was an amazing moment. And it was almost better because I had given up. NJ: Yes. JS: And then she called. Because I think every author dreams of it, and I didn’t ever think poetry would win, and yet of course you dream of it anyway. NJ: Yes. JS: So, it was amazing. NJ: How did it change you as a writer? Did it? JS: I think actually getting that Caldecott Honor for Song of the Water Boatman changed me in a sense of making me more nervous about writing. But winning the Newberry and being validated for my writing as opposed to the illustration -NJ: Yes, right. Joyce Sidman Edited Transcript – February 27, 2015 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHAT) 7 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections JS: -- I think it was only positive. I just feel like it was a wonderful moment. It was a magical moment. I couldn’t believe it happened, and it was just magic. I mean, I’m still really critical of myself, but I feel like that was that magic moment. No one can ever take that away from me, and I re-live it in my mind when I’m feeling low. I was so thrilled this year when Kwame Alexander won because that’s my publisher. They had sent his book to me to write a blurb for the back of the book. And I wrote back and said, I love this book! This is an awesome book! I want to write a book -- That was a book I read and I thought, I want to write a book like this. NJ: It had a plot. JS: It had a plot! And it had different -- different voices, and it was just a perfect book. So I was really thrilled. I’m always thrilled when poetry wins. It’s just thrilling. Sweet -- Good Masters! Sweet Ladies! I was totally thrilled when that won too. ST: So then, did you call your husband or call your -JS: I called my husband. I said, in this just deadpan voice because I was still in shock, I got a Newberry Honor. He goes, They didn’t give you the award? You only got an Honor? This is not the right reaction. ST: Wow. NJ: Wow. And your boys, were they at home at the time? Were they still living at home? They were -JS: No, they were off in college and, but they were thrilled and -- You know the way college kids can be about their parents lives, which is, sort of -NJ: Oh very -- that’s really nice, Mom. JS: Called my parents, called my writers’ group. NJ: And Ann. JS: And Ann. NJ: Did she knew before -- did she know before you did? Before they called? JS: I don’t know. NJ: It depends where they get the phone number -JS: I couldn’t reach her actually. She was there. I reached Lisa DiSarro, who’s the marketing director, first, who is just a doll. Yes, it was -- it was such a high. It was great! Joyce Sidman Edited Transcript – February 27, 2015 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHAT) 8 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ST: And then you went to the banquet, eventually. You had some months of reveling. Did you go to bookstores? Did you do some of that? SJ: I did the bookstore thing in my own hometown, but Houghton isn’t -- well I -- I shouldn’t even bring in the publisher, it’s -- Poetry is a tough sell in a bookstore, and I learned that kind of early on, and I don’t really advocate for that anymore. I love to talk to groups of either students or adults, but the bookstore’s not a great arena for, for what I do, and so, you know, Kwame’s going to totally crush it because he’s such a presence anyway. But, yeah, I’m more -- I’m more comfortable in schools, really, and at universities and places like that. ST: So you’ve had kind of a spring after your -- the Honor. You were -- you made a few bookstore appearances. JS: Yes, I did. ST: And then you had the -JS: Locally. ST: Okay. And then you had the banquet, which was where? JS: Yes. ST: That was -JS: Pretty cool. ST: Yes, mm-hmm. JS: Yes. Well I’m not that comfortable in huge crowds of people, and I don’t like to dress up, so -NJ: Uh oh. NJ: It was a mixed gift. JS: Yes, exactly. But at least I didn’t have to talk. That was -- that was lovely. But it was -- it was very magical. And, you know, then they break out -- The whole ALA is just so overwhelming but full of these passionate book people who just, I love them, they’re just awesome. NJ: It kind of goes back to what you were talking about with your -- you found your people. JS: Mm-hmm. NJ: You know, as a writer, and ALA is another type of your people, who are floored by the world, who are -- they’re floored by the world of children’s literature. And they’re all grown-ups. Joyce Sidman Edited Transcript – February 27, 2015 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHAT) 9 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections JS: Yeah, it’s true. And I hear from a lot of those people, people who will write me out of the blue and say, I love your poetry. I read it with my students, or I read it with my children, or my grandchildren, and I’m just writing to tell you how much I enjoy that. ST: Do you take a lot of photographs? JS: I’ve just -- it’s a hobby that I’ve started. ST: Is that kind of recent, or is it -JS: It is fairly recent, yes. ST: Okay. JS: I’m going to show a lot of them on Saturday. ST: Is there interplay between the writing and the photography? JS: Yes. I think there is. It certainly appears to be from someone who’s looking at it, but I don’t know if that’s -- I think so. I think it’s noticing things. I love macro photography and noticing little things. ST: Yes, yes. There’s a lot of connections between how something’s structured and poetry. NJ: Yes, just even the lens you use. ST: I’m so interested in all the different forms that you like to play around with, and introducing them. I think Nancy’s earlier question about the difference between children and adult poetry, which I think is really true, a lot of the things that you surface, but, you know, the triolet, right? And the pantoum -- Do you sneak those in there? Do you boldly put them? JS: Well, I don’t write out and I don’t start out to write in any particular form, but I think sometimes the subject matter lends itself, and I think I’m particularly drawn to forms where you’re using the same line more than once but you have to present it in a new way. That’s always appealed to me. Even in college, I remember writing pantoum-like poetry because I feel like when you have that golden line, it’s wonderful to be able to recycle it and show it in a new way. And so that -- pantoums are some of my favorites. And triolet I really -- I love that poetry format and I feel like Alice Schertle wrote one, the perfect one about the cows wanting the grass on the other side of the fence. And Marilyn Singer wrote a gorgeous one about dinosaurs. And I was almost -- I had some trepidation about using that because it’s been done so well. ST: Oh, skunk cabbage -- is a lovely example of, you know. It’s hilarious, right? Yes, it is. It’s a funny plant and – NJ: It’s the perfect poem. JS: Do you have that here in Washington state? Joyce Sidman Edited Transcript – February 27, 2015 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHAT) 10 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections NJ: Skunk cabbage, yes, when I used to teach we had it. We’d take our students and they’d go. I wish I would have had the poem then. JS: Yes, right. NJ: We talked earlier about one of the unique, I mean one of the Joyce Sidman trademarks is the nature poetry and the nonfiction, alongside each other, leaning against each other, supporting each other, illuminate each other. Could you talk about that decision, how you make the decision to do that? Which do you write first? How do you revise? How do you use a poet’s eye to write nonfiction? JS: Hmm. Well, I’m not sure I can totally answer that because a lot of it is kind of organic in the way that it grows. But I start by reading a lot about the subject matter, and then I find specific creatures or plants or phenomena that interest me. And then often the next step is to do research, and I find out as much as I can about that particular subject. And then I wait for the voice of it, and sometimes that’ll come right away, sometimes it takes a really long time. But there’s only so much -- I have to discover what I call the coolness factor, which is what it is about that creature that really is the coolest thing to me. For instance, in Ubiquitous, when I was reading about geckos and reading about how they spread around the world, they’ve spread because their eggs are sticky and stick to flotsam and jetsam and float everywhere. But the cool thing, the coolest thing about them, is that they have these toe pads that interact at a molecular level with the material that they’re stepping on so that they can walk up walls, and I thought, That is so cool! But you can’t put that in a poem. You can have them going up the wall, but you can’t say that their toe pads are interacting at a molecular level. But kids deserve to know that. That’s just so awesome. So it’s that kind of thing, those kinds of things, that I want to include for them because I don’t know whether the child approaching this book will be most interested in the science of it or in the poetry of it or both equally, and I just feel like they’re both interesting to me so I deserve to put both of them on the page. And I think that’s really all that goes into that decision for me. It’s everything I want that I think is cool, but some of it belongs more in poetic form, and some of it belongs more in nonfiction. And I love writing the nonfiction. It’s really as fun to me in a lot of ways as the poetry. It’s tough to keep it short, and it’s tough to keep it aimed at 10-11 year old. And as I’m going to talk Saturday about it, the most difficult piece of writing I’ve ever written is the nonfiction note for the “Snowflake” to try to describe how a perfectly symmetrical snowflake forms randomly and exclusively in the chaos of the cold skies. It’s really difficult. It’s like physics, and it has to do with molecules, and so paring that down to this nonfiction note was really, really tough. It was a wonderful challenge, but it was very, very difficult. But I enjoy it. I enjoy the nonfiction too. NJ: How long does it take you to -- when I think of a book like Winter Bees, can you kind of give us the arc of how long it takes from maybe first idea and -JS: Some books take longer than others. This one -- Ubiquitous took a really long time because it was -there was so much science involved, and I wanted to pace it in an evolutionary way. But something like Joyce Sidman Edited Transcript – February 27, 2015 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHAT) 11 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections Winter Bees, which is a little bit more straight forward, I would say probably it takes about a year, a year and a half, to write, because I have to do a lot reading, I have to choose, I have to make sure they’re all perfect. I have to find the voice for every poem. I have to send them off to scientists and see if I’ve done things right. And then I turn it over to Ann, and then my part essentially is done, except for cleanup work and looking at the book dummy and everything. And then it takes another two years for that illustrator to -- well, a year for the illustrator to create the art and then another year for it to come out in production. ST: And you mentioned that you have a curriculum or you when you -- So are you thinking of that? Do you make a little side note while you’re writing, or is that something -- the book’s out and then you say, Oh, I’m going -- would like to have this as a book to work with students in schools if I’m asked? JS: I think it happens in the year that it’s in production. I think, Okay, how can teachers use this in the classroom? Because since I go into the classroom and use certain poems as model poems, I look through the poems and think, Which one of these would be a model poem, and how could a teacher bring this into the classroom and use it? And I try to include some art projects too, but I’m not an artist, so I kind of just think about it from, What would a 4th grade teacher want to do with their kids? ST: So, you author the curriculum, the guides? JS: I do. Sylvia Vardell did the one for Winter Bees, and I didn’t even know Houghton Mifflin was contracting for her to do that. But it was lovely, and I didn’t have to do it. But yes, I don’t mind doing it all because -- because I teach that way anyway, so it’s not that hard for me to do. ST: It would be wonderful to hear you read some poems. JS: Alright. Any in particular that you would like -NJ: You used “floored by the world.” Is there a poem or two that comes up, you think, Yeah, this one really -- this topic floored me? JS: Well, let’s see. In terms of science, I think Ubiquitous was the one that really -- well, the squirrel poem was pretty fun -JS: I have to take a sip of water before I do it. I was just in New Zealand, and New Zealand does not have squirrels. And I don’t want to tell you how many New Zealanders said, Oh Squirrels! Oh, I would love to see a squirrel! And I think, you don’t know what you’re talking about. I also love the squirrel poem because Beckie Prange took a photograph -- This is my dog. She took a photograph of my dog. I put a rawhide treat up in a tree, and she took a picture of him trying to get the rawhide treat, and so there’s Watson in the book. Okay, so this is a poem I tried to write in a squirrel’s voice, so it’s called: Joyce Sidman Edited Transcript – February 27, 2015 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHAT) 12 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections “Tail Tale.” (Transcriber’s note: In the book, this is a concrete poem within the silhouette body of a squirrel.) OK, your brains are big while ours are just the size of walnuts which we love to eat by the way with teeth that can chew through any sort of bird feeder you care to erect and believe me we will find them no matter where you put ‘em being insatiably curious and natural-born problem-solvers just as we find the nuts we cleverly hid last fall all over your yard even though you let your dog out at every opportunity Sure dogs run fast but what can they do in a tree nothing besides paw the trunk and stare at us hungrily as we dash limb from limb sailing out over the leaves with our parachute tails which by the way also act as umbrella, float, flag, rudder, and the warmest, softest, coziest quilt you could ever imagine oh yes indeed your brains are bigger…hmmm bigger brains versus tree-top living with a free fur coat and the ability to crack any safe known to man now really which would you choose if you actually had a choice which you don’t? NJ: Yes, awesome! Clearly as you’re reading this and looking at your facial expression, you’re tickled by this. I don’t think a lot of people think of writing poetry as being tickled. They say poetry is about emotions. Well, that’s an emotion. And I’m curious, did you always know that? When did you know that poetry can really tickle you? JS: Well, that’s an interesting question. I think from reading other poets and finding their humor in it, in adult poetry as well as children’s poetry, and feeling like it was okay to -- to feel a connection between a creature and myself and feel like I’m putting part of myself into the poem, even if it means using my imagination to become that creature. I think that’s something I love to do, and I think kids still love to do that too. But I think there has to be that part of yourself that you understand. It’s almost like that squirrel or like that gecko or it’s a part of you that’s bonding with that creature, and that’s the part that always tickles me because I love pretending I’m a water bug or a dog or whatever. I think a lot of kids do too. NJ: What’s next for you? What will we see next? JS: Well, what we will see next is a book called Before Morning, which actually was originally a poem in What the Heart Knows. It’s a poem called “Invocation for Snow in Large Quantities,” -- and it was one of the first poems to -NJ: Boston will not like you JS: Actually, my editor just said, You know, they all love that book, Joyce, but they love it a little less. And while I was working on this book, Ann Rider called me up one day and said, You know, Joyce -- she sends poems to her kids by email -- she said, You know, I was looking at that snow poem, and I put it with some art by Beth Krommes -- because she has a lot of snow art, she lives in New Hampshire -- and I Joyce Sidman Edited Transcript – February 27, 2015 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHAT) 13 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections just thought, maybe we should do that as a picture book. I thought to myself, It’s the easiest book I’ve ever sold in my life. NJ: So it’s like Swirl by Swirl in that regard, so it’s a single poem picture book. JS: Yes. And it’s just a very simple poem about wishing for snow. And Beth took it and created this whole story that’s set in like a Quebec City kind of a place. I’m not going to tell you what it’s about, but she created this whole story around it, so that’s hopefully going to come out in November, if she can get the art finished. And then there’s another book I have under contract that’s going to be similar to Swirl by Swirl, only it’s about round things, about spheres and round things. ST: So I have a practical question for you. JS: Okay. ST: So, you’re out a lot, getting inspiration and walking your dog Watson, and do you keep a little recorder with you? Do you have a little piece of paper? Do you have a brain that retains that amazing line that came to you a mile out on the lake? How does that happen for you? JS: That’s a great question. I’m going to talk a little bit about that on Saturday too. I have this terrible suspicious mind, and it’s borne out in reality, that if I actually bring the pen and the paper with me, nothing will come into my head, because part of what a walk is for me is just to release and letting my mind just drift. So what happens is that I will get the line, like I’ll get the voice of a poem. For instance, the “Oak After Dark” poem, I hadn’t -- I knew I wanted to write about a tree because I found out that trees do different things at night than they do during the day, seemed so fascinating to me. I wrote a lot of really terrible tree poems. And then finally I was walking through the woods and the line “to anchor earth, to touch the sky” came into my head. That’s it, that’s the voice of the oak. So I went thumping home saying to myself, “to anchor earth, to touch the sky, to anchor earth...” And I just went all the way home with that in my head, and then I wrote it down as soon as I got home. But that’s what seems to work for me. I’ll get something in my head and I’ll just repeat it until I get home. But I can’t take the pen and the paper. It just doesn’t work. I don’t know why. ST: Jinx it. JS: I know. It’s crazy. And I always tell kids to carry a notebook with them wherever they go. ST: Right, right. JS: And you know, they’re never really far. They’re at most 45 minutes away, those pens and paper. NJ: So, do you still use old fashion pen or pencil? If we walked into your studio and were -- just kind of peered over your writing, what would we see you use? Joyce Sidman Edited Transcript – February 27, 2015 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHAT) 14 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections JS: I write notes longhand, but I compose a lot on the computer. I like to see the way the words will look on the page, and I like almost to see the sculptural quality of them. And I love to be able to move them around. And I’ll print out different drafts of things. But I really do prefer to see -- My handwriting’s getting worse, and I just prefer to see how those words are going to look as a sculpture on the page, a printed sculpture. NJ: Would we hear you read -JS: Oh, yes. You’d hear me reading, talking to the dog, talking to myself. Yes, I think they do need to be read aloud. And often they need to be read to an audience, and that’s why the writers’ group is so important. Because things change when you have people there and you’re reading to them. You can tell by the tenor of the silence whether you have them or not. So I think that’s really important. I tell kids that in the classroom that they have to read aloud to somebody. ST: Can we hear one more -- maybe the oak? JS: Sure. ST: Do you want to read the oak tree or, choose? JS: Sure. That’s one of my favorites. “Oak After Dark” As nighttime rustles at my knee, I stand in silent gravity and quietly continue chores of feeding leaves and sealing pores. While beetles whisper in my bark, while warblers roost in branches dark, I stretch my roots into the hill and slowly, slowly, drink my fill. A thousand crickets scream my name, yet I remain the same, the same. I do not rest, I do not sleep, and all my promises I keep: to stand while all the seasons fly, to anchor earth, to touch the sky. Joyce Sidman Edited Transcript – February 27, 2015 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHAT) 15 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections JS: The best of me is in those books. I believe that. Sometimes I feel like authors shouldn’t be let out of there. All of this is because their best words are in their books. ST: Thank you, very much. Joyce Sidman Edited Transcript – February 27, 2015 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHAT) 16 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections
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Title: Gene Ervine interview--October 4, 2016
Date: 2016-10-04
Description: Eugene N. Ervine graduated from Western in 1974 with a Bachelor of Arts in English Literature and minor in creative writing. He was editor of Jeopardy in 1971. He himself is passionate about poetry and shared some of his work in this interview.
Digital Collection: Special Collections Oral History Program
Type of resource: text
Object custodian: Special Collections
Related Collection: Special Collections Oral History Program
Local Identifier: SCOHP_Ervine_Gene_20161004
Text preview (might not show all results): Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections Oral History Program Gene Ervine ATTENTION: © Copyright Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. "Fair use" cr
Show moreWestern Washington University Libraries Special Collections Oral History Program Gene Ervine ATTENTION: © Copyright Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. "Fair use" criteria of Section 107 of the Copyright Act of 1976 must be followed. The following materials can be used for educational and other noncommercial purposes without the written permission of Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. These materials are not to be used for resale or commercial purposes without written authorization from Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. All materials cited must be attributed to Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. This interview was conducted with Gene Ervine, alumni, class of 1974, Western Washington University. The interview was conducted in Special Collections, Western Libraries, on October 4, 2016. The interviewer is Tamara Belts. TB: Today is Tuesday, October 4, 2016. My name is Tamara Belts, and I’m here with Gene Ervine. And we’re going to do an oral history of his time at Western and a little bit following that. So our first question is: how did you happen to decide to come to Western? GE: I think it was economic necessity. I’d gone to Whitworth for a year, and I was realizing that that was expending what little I had for education much quicker than I could afford, so I opted for the state school. And I had a good friend, Dale Zeretzke, who was at Western, and we’re still friends after 60 years, so that’s something. Anyway, so I got to Western, and I met my wife of 46 years. The first day I was on campus as a student, I was walking out of Mabel Zoe Wilson Library and met her, and she’s been a remarkable part of my life ever since. TB: Very good. So what were your dates of attendance at Western? GE: It was 1968 through 1971, and I left with three credits short, so in 1974 in the winter quarter I came back and finished up. TB: And so what degrees or certificates did you receive from Western. GE: Just a degree of Bachelor of Arts in English Literature, with a minor in creative writing. TB: And then did you receive any other degrees anywhere else? GE: No, just a lot of hard knocks. 1 Gene Ervine Edited Transcript – October 4, 2016 Campus History Collection ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED TB: And what was your first job after leaving Western? GE: Well, my first job was to work for Georgia-Pacific as a tree planter and pre-commercial thinner in the timber industry. As an attender of Students for Democratic Society meetings, I realized that it was important that we unionize the crew I was on. So I unionized our pre-commercial thinning crew, and that worked really well. I had a hundred percent on the election to unionize. But about two weeks later, the big boss met us on Mt. Baker Highway and said, So long, it’s been good to know you. So, even though I had unionized and everything, and it was legal, Georgia Pacific didn’t approve and made our jobs disappear. So my first job cost I think it was seven or eight guys their jobs, which was kind of sad. TB: Was that in the window of 1971 and 1974 when you were taking a break? GE: Yes. And after that, I went on to -- we were, our first year’s tax return showed an income of just under $2,000. Now a can of tomato soup cost seven cents ($.07) then, as a reference point, but -- and gas was twenty-three cents ($.23) a gallon, but $2,000 didn’t go very far, so I needed to do something. So I ended up getting a job at Scott Papers’ Hamilton camp, outside of Sedro Woolley on the Skagit River, and I worked in high-lead logging there as a choker setter, and then chaser on a high-lead tower, [Skyline] they called the crew. TB: And so then, you got married, she got a job in Alaska, and you went up and worked up there as well? GE: Yes, and I logged for two years there, and a year in two different camps. It was interesting to be involved in primary extraction industry, whether it’s mining, logging, or fishing or farming. Those are all fairly high risk jobs. And some of the possibilities are very stark. I had several near misses. It’s pretty amazing when you look over your shoulder and see a whole tree coming down slope behind you, and you get a tremendous adrenaline rush when you see something like that. It’s amazing. It’s like combat, because you can walk -- you can be doing the job for days and days, and safely, and something happens that just is unexpected, and all of a sudden you’re ambushed and you’ve got to kind of move, or you don’t and you don’t have any options. I was forty feet out of the way one time, and a skyline got a belly in it, like you want to flip the garden hose over an obstacle, and I was forty feet out of the way. That’s a long ways. And the cable came down like fourteen inches from my boot. Another time, I was standing next to a yarder, I bent down and picked up a chainsaw, and a log had slid out of the chokers and slid along the side of the yarder and was right where that chainsaw had been an instant before. It was -- just thinking about it, I get little sweaty palms. TB: So when you guys left the logging camp up there where she [had been] teaching, did you get a different job? I didn’t ask her this. Or did she get a different job? GE: She got a different job. The logging camp was kind of like a farm team for a baseball organization, and she proved herself in the logging camp school, and then was hired in Sitka to work. And I was tired of standing in the rain and being -- and just the whole logging thing was kind of wearing thin. So I looked for something different to do, and I got a job with the National Park Service, which ended up transforming what hadn’t really been much of career. It had been work. But I finally worked myself into 2 Gene Ervine Edited Transcript – October 4, 2016 Campus History Collection ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED what was a real career, and I worked for 36 years in the government then in the Department of the Interior. I retired from the Bureau of Land Management in Anchorage. TB: So when you first came to Western, did you live at home or in a dorm, or? GE: Well, when I first came to Western, I lived in the old YMCA down on State Street, in a little room that I rented because the dorms were full and I didn’t know -- hadn’t figured out how to rent a room or anything. So I stayed there for a month, and then I moved into a house on, low down on what used to be called Indian Street. It’s now Billy Frank Jr. Street. I lived in an apartment there for a season, and then moved up, farther up Billy Frank Jr. Street, and there was an old grocery store. I can’t remember the address now, but I lived in a balcony above what had been the grocery store, and it was kind of like a converted – TB: Oh, Hinotes? Is that Hinotes? GE: It wasn’t called Hinotes then. TB: Okay. GE: It was just some kind of an old commercial building that had been converted into apartments. TB: The Hinotes was right across from Mathes. GE: It was down a little further. About halfway up from, what is it, Holly? TB: Okay. GE: Yes. And I ate on campus because what was then called Saga Food Service was way better than what I could figure out with a can of peanut butter, or a jar of peanut butter and a little bit of jam. TB: And so what was your main course of study? That was English Literature, with a minor in – GE: Creative writing. TB: Can we talk a little bit more about what classes you liked best, that you learned the most from? [And who were] some of your favorite or most influential teachers and why? GE: Well, Larry Lee, L. L. Lee, was a World War II veteran and was my adviser, and we got to be just friends. And again, Maurice Dube, who I mentioned earlier, was also just a good friend, and we just enjoyed each other’s company and talking about everything under the sun. And for a young person, I found that very valuable to have somebody to talk to and grow my experience, so I really appreciated that aspect of knowing both Dr. Lee and Dr. Dube. And then – TB: Could you expand a little bit though. Like for Dr. Lee, did you go to his home, or were there classes? 3 Gene Ervine Edited Transcript – October 4, 2016 Campus History Collection ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED GE: Just classes. And he was just a kind man, and he had some good stories. He told us once that during World War II, he was a Bangalore torpedo man. Bangalore torpedoes are the kind of explosives that they used during the Normandy invasion to blow the barbed wire out of the way. They were long pipes that they would couple together and slide out under barbed wire and then set it off. Dr. Lee told about after he got out of the service, he went to work for the Forest Service. And since he had some experience, he became a powder monkey or an explosives expert for the Forest Service. And he had a short-lived career because his first job was to shoot a boulder that had come down in a rock fall on this logging road, presumably, and he wasn’t quite sure how heavily to load the charge for the boulder to blow it out of the way and break it up so they could move it. Well, he loaded the charge a little bit too heavy so that the Forest Service ended up sending him down the road unemployed. He’d blown up the road so much that they needed to rebuild it. But that was just a little Dr. Lee story. But he was a passionate teacher. He loved English. And as I remember, he had a Greek wife, who was very nice and enthusiastic. And Dr. Dube, I spent much more time with. He was an algologist in the biology department. He was also a folk music enthusiast and liked what we now called roots folk music, things that went back to the original sources in Appalachia and things like that. That was very interesting to me. We shared an interest in religion, and he was able to talk to me about that, and we could talk through our faith journey a little bit. And that was helpful. I really appreciated him, and appreciated what he sowed into my life. I had, at the time I was a student, Robert Huff and Knute Skinner were both on campus as poets. And looking back, I think I needed more experience to be a poet, and I think my poetry has matured not because of so much of the instruction I gained at Western, which I admit was helpful, but I think living life and being thoughtful about it was in a way more helpful. TB: Can you tell me a little bit more about Huff personally, and both of them really? It’s kind of nice – Skinner’s still alive, but Huff has passed away. GE: Yes. Robert Huff was an interesting man. He looked like he might have been a football player. I mean, he had strong arms. And one of the reasons he may have passed away was because he chain smoked in our class, and he smoked unfiltered Lucky Strikes. I remember he would routinely get little flecks of tobacco on his tongue that he needed to pick off. It’s really nice being -- visiting Western as a smoke-free place. To have a professor smoking in your class was just -- I mean, now it seems barbaric, and it was barbaric, but we just didn’t know it at the time. But anyway, he had -- I think he fancied himself a lady’s man, and he also -- you know, I didn’t interact with him the way -- I had a much closer relationship with this biologist than I had with this guy who could’ve been a real important faculty member for me. And I don’t know, I think the teaching of poetry is a very difficult thing because poetry is kind of ineffable, kind of like spirituality or something. It’s a hard thing to teach. It’s not like how to build a robot or something. You don’t get points for just hooking a battery up and -- I don’t know if that makes sense but – TB: It’s personal, yes. GE: Poetry is a hard thing because it’s a synthesis of all your experience, every conversation you’ve had, the way you look at the world, who you are genetically and ethnically, and everything shapes that, and 4 Gene Ervine Edited Transcript – October 4, 2016 Campus History Collection ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED then how you use language and the language that attracts you, and then it goes through you as the filter and comes out the other side. It’s a hard thing to teach. So [Knute Skinner] was a kind of an oversized leprechaun of a man. He was a tall man but he always had kind of the Irish kind of beard that comes down without a mustache. And he wrote a variety of poems, not all of them were great poems. I remember one that had a line in it that was something like, Tonight I suck back the phlegm, phlegm without end, amen. Which was kind of a disgusting little poem. But he certainly has -- in his life he developed a meaningful relationship with Ireland, and I would like to know more about that. And he was in Anchorage recently and read at the local university, but I had a conflict and I couldn’t get to it. TB: Oh, darn. GE: But it would’ve been nice to see him again after all these years. TB: Did you by any chance know Sam Green? GE: Sam Green of Waldron Island? TB: Yes. GE: I’ve met him. TB: Okay, because he was a Western student, but maybe a little later. GE: And [Brooding Heron Press] -- Yes, I have met him. My sister-in-law has ties to Waldon, and so I met him through that. TB: But you didn’t when you were at Western. GE: No, no. TB: So anything more about your classes that you liked the best or remember the most from, or other teachers? GE: I think I was probably a pretty indifferent student. And I didn’t -- I look at the kids that are coming up. There’s these Compass 2 Campus programs where fifth to sixth graders start thinking about their university experience and kind of get groomed up into coming to Western, and I think that’s really exciting. I don’t think I was well prepared to understand how to exploit and use the university to the fullest. You know, I’m glad that I did that. Probably the most important thing I got from Western at this point was my dear wife, who’s been such a rock all these years. We’ve raised two kids and had some really nice adventures. So that’s been very valuable. I wish I could say that, you know, that Western was a mountain top experience. It was a good thing to check off along the way, but it wasn’t that for me. And I think that’s as much my fault as it was Western’s fault. 5 Gene Ervine Edited Transcript – October 4, 2016 Campus History Collection ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED TB: So what about extracurricular activities? I know that you were on Jeopardy. Do you want to talk about that? GE: I was the editor of Jeopardy, not on Jeopardy. I didn’t know Alex Trebek. TB: Oh, yes, sorry. GE: Anyway, but I just fell into Jeopardy. One of the wonderful things that happened because I was editor of Jeopardy in 1971, I was able to invite Gary Snyder to campus. And he came to campus. I went to SeaTac and picked him up, and we started to drive up I-5, and we were arriving in a Cadillac limousine that was surplus from a funeral home, and a local printer, who will remain nameless, was using it to haul his paper stock around because it made a pretty nice enclosed pickup truck. But we were driving up I-5, and this printer offered us a joint, a marijuana cigarette. Gary declined and I declined, and we kept driving for about two minutes, and all of a sudden a siren went off and we were pulled over by the State Patrol, who walked up and said, You’ve got a taillight out, son. But at that time, being caught in a car full of marijuana smoke would have been very bad for all our careers, so Gary Snyder kept me out of a lot of trouble. The next day, we went down to Teddy Bear Cove with twenty of our closest friends and went skinny dipping. And while we were enjoying the frigid waters of Samish Bay, Gary Snyder whipped out a couplet that he may have had by memory, but it was, The oysters that you eat today slept last night in Samish Bay. Then that afternoon, Ken Kesey, the novelist from Oregon, and a group of creative writer types and myself and Gary Snyder were under an apple tree in Fairhaven close to the site of the old Bellingham Co-op that used to be in Fairhaven years and years ago, and somebody had brought a jug of Cribari table wine, a gallon jug, and we were passing that around. And Ken Kesey and Gary Snyder were talking about their different approaches to their art of writing. Gary Snyder was very disciplined as a Zen monk and a translator of Asian texts, and it was a very kind of formal and deliberate approach to his craft. And of course Ken Kesey was a member of the Merry Pranksters and was interested in experimenting with LSD and quantities of marijuana, and it was a very interesting conversation. And I wish somebody had recorded it, because I think it may have been one of the great conversations about that kind of thing from two very notable practitioners of their art. That was very cool. The reason I had invited Gary to campus was because there was an event called the Western Washington State College Multi Arts Festival. And that was -- his reading was part of that. It was interesting to have him there. It was just shortly after he’d lost a friend who had been living on his property in Nevada City, California, a man named Lew Welch, who was a poet of some renown. He’s got a book of poems, which are still enjoyed, called Ring of Bone: collected poems, 1950-1971. But Lew Welch was living on Gary’s property in a camper, and he walked out one day with a 22 revolver and was never seen again. And Gary was just grieving the loss of his friend Lew Welch when I met him. And I’ve since become a real fan of Lew Welch. He had a great, a very interesting grasp of poetry, and I’ve really enjoyed what I’ve read of him. It was kind of -- I learned about him directly from Gary Snyder, but just after he’d died, so it was kind of ironic. TB: So were you aware at all, I’m kind of asking because maybe you talked with Paul about this, of Fishtown? 6 Gene Ervine Edited Transcript – October 4, 2016 Campus History Collection ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED GE: Fishtown and Robert Sund and that stuff? TB: Yes. GE: I’ve met Robert Sund. My friend Dale was a good friend of Robert’s. I’ve just recently really been reading a lot of the stuff that’s come out since Robert died about, I think it was about seventeen years ago now. But I’ve really come to appreciate his poetry. And what I like about it is its -- it captures the moment so clearly. And you know, that was -- that Fishtown thing was kind of a hippie commune, and as a resident of Skagit County I wasn’t immediately aware of that. You know, I had my own home life, and I wasn’t trying to find a place to squat. And that’s basically what Robert and his friends there at the mouth of the Skagit were doing, was kind of squatting in old shacks and buildings. I think that’s great, and I really appreciated his -- the elegant simplicity of his poetry. He really thought about paring things down to their essentials. It’s kind of like playing the game Jenga where you make a structure and then you start pulling things out. And his poems are so refined that if you pull anything else out of them, they fall apart. That’s maybe an inadequate analogy, but. TB: Wow. Anything else that’s an outstanding memory of your college days? GE: Well, there was the guy that streaked across Red Square on a Harley -- wearing just an oldfashioned aviator’s hat and goggles. I didn’t recognize the rest of him (laughter). My wife and I walked a lot, and I just remember walking repeatedly across Red Square arm in arm, and it seemed like a good idea at the time. TB: Well, I think you were on campus, do you remember when they were rebuilding the library? Does that at all ring a bell? GE: I think, this must be the third rebuild that we’re sitting in here, because I don’t think it was a major rebuild when I was here, or I don’t remember it being a major rebuild. TB: Okay, that’s fine. GE: I’m sorry. TB: That’s okay. Do you want to talk a little bit about, more about your own poetry since you obviously liked poetry when you were in college, but then it seemed like it’s something that you must have kept working on throughout your life. GE: Yes, I could read a couple of poems. You know, I’ve done a lot of different things, but I’ve kind of always been a poet. Let’s see, I need to find the other document. Here’s a poem that I read at Huxley College this morning to some students in an interpretation class: Alaska is a Library -- and we’re in a library, so this is somehow appropriate. Alaska is a library In the anthology 7 Gene Ervine Edited Transcript – October 4, 2016 Campus History Collection ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED of landscapes Alaska is the grand novel of place, all those intricate stories; epic lakes, rivers, fjords, islands, deserts and glaciers. Alaska is a collection of short stories, of kayak capsizes, bluff charges, narrow escapes, storm flung float plane rides, hammering heart beats. Alaska is creative nonfiction of mistakes and victories, love for a particular cove or peak at sunrise that drives hard into our memories. Alaska is a theology of revelation of how arteries and islands, mountains and valleys, can change your life. This landscape is an evangelist that wins hearts and minds with its gestures and the hymns it sings in our hearts. Alaska is a memoir that you will write sunrise to sunset, fog wrapping an island on a still bay, a salmon splash in the shallows, low sun in the hoary cold shining on ice felted birch trees. Alaska is a poem which can’t be memorized line by line but astonishes 8 Gene Ervine Edited Transcript – October 4, 2016 Campus History Collection ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED each learner like a golden summer sunrise, softened by smoke from distant fires, and measured carefully by the olive silhouettes of spruce trees marching across muskeg and valleys, clear to our final tree line. TB: That’s nice. That was really beautiful. What I’m trying to get at is that there’s a real spirituality in that. There’s a religious fervor there, and it’s also, obvious that Alaska really captured you. GE: Yes. Robert Service said in The Spell of the Yukon; he said, You hate it like hell for a season, and then it grips you like some kinds of sinning. And I think it did. We went north for a year, and it’s been forty-some years now. TB: That’s amazing. Short Break TB: We are back after a little break, and you’re going to read another poem. GE: This is a poem called Boreal Spoons, and the boreal forest is the only circumpolar ecosystem. Boreal Spoons Today I think of carved spoons, I think of blocks of wood cut from trees, split and stacked I think of shape, balance, and decoration. Sharp tools, chips, and shavings I would like to carve three spoons Out of birch. Wood that has been carved Around the world in the boreal forest For spoons. Blonde, simple, Serviceable spoons A wood that that has heated Moose, reindeer Bear meat, or salmon, for soups, stews and chowders, Or sourdough pancakes and biscuits Birch bark makes the best tinder 9 Gene Ervine Edited Transcript – October 4, 2016 Campus History Collection ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED Bursting easily into flame, And Bohemian waxwings flock after its seeds, on the snow at the end of winter. Hewing the spoons out of birch blocks with hatchet and bow saw working at my chopping block. Chips, splinters, knife shavings land near by kindling for bonfire or stove. The first spoon will be larger than a tablespoon With a long curved handle, suitable for stirring a pot and scooping a soup dish full quickly, A spoon peasants have carved For so many years no one can count. Carved for the minder of the pot, Offered perhaps to make a woman’s eyes sparkle a gesture of long friendship, or to mark a new beginning. Soup is one of the gestures Of love that the experts Have missed, but surely On cold evenings when things Aren’t working well, a good soup Is nearly love itself. So one spoon for the cauldron The stew, soup or chowder. A spoon for you A spoon for me. Your spoon then will be light Nearly delicate, good for soup Porridge or berries. A delicate bend To the handle chip carved, Viking style and a fine bowl. My spoon will be plain and sturdy, Bent handle and larger bowl Good for the stews and chowders Something useful for me While I admire you across the table. 10 Gene Ervine Edited Transcript – October 4, 2016 Campus History Collection ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED You are smiling at me there, And as long as I can see that, Smiling back, spoon in hand, I, a simple man, feel Fortunate and safe at home. TB: Nice. GE: So here’s a good Northwest Washington poem: Mount Baker On my skyline It is a great place to turn to It tells me where home is, And talks about the weather. I like its moods and colors Sometimes at sunset You just mutter, “It’s strawberry, It has to be strawberry ice cream!” Other days that mountain Slow dances with the clouds Tucking into the moment Then disappears! Anyway. There are a couple poems. TB: Okay. Is there anything else that I haven’t asked you that you’d like to share? GE: Well, I think the idea of leaving Western as a lifetime learner, anxious to comprehend opportunities and to apprehend them, is really important. One of the things -Actually, there is one thing. When I was in -- I forget what year it was, but I was in an art appreciation class from a man named R. Allen Jensen. TB: Yes. GE: And he was an artist in his own right, but he was married to Robert Fulghum’s sister. And Robert Fulghum was also an artist, but he’s also a Unitarian minister who wrote Everything I Needed to Know I Learned in Kindergarten. And he came to Mr. Jensen’s class and introduced me to a book that I found just extremely useful as a poet. In fact, it’s probably the biggest thing that I took away from Western, as a poet. It was a little book by the famous poet E. E. Cummings, who was a Charles Eliot Norton chair lecturer at Harvard. And he wrote a little book called I: six nonlectures, and Robert Fulghum introduced me to that book in that art history class, and it was wonderful. Robert Fulghum said in the course of that lecture that, “You are the raw materials, you are the artist, you are the masterpiece, and you are the prize.” And then he quoted some of Cummings from that book, and one of the things that he quoted was, “new worlds aren’t made, they are born, and their birthdays are the birthdays of individuals.” And he also, I’m 11 Gene Ervine Edited Transcript – October 4, 2016 Campus History Collection ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED not sure whether Fulghum quoted this, but there’s a little poem in that book Cummings wrote that goes like this: As long as you and I have mouths and lips, which are to kiss and sing with, who cares if some one-eyed son-of-a-bitch invents an instrument to measure spring with. TB: Nice. Anything else? GE: I think that’s it. TB: Well, thank you very much. GE: Well, thank you. 12 Gene Ervine Edited Transcript – October 4, 2016 Campus History Collection ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED
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Title: Lynda Goodrich interview--March 16, 2017
Date: 2017-03-16
Description: Lynda Goodrich, WWU administrator, 1973-2013. She coached multiple sports most notably as women's basketball coach and twenty-five years as director of Athletics, retiring in 2013.
Digital Collection: Special Collections Oral History Program
Type of resource: text
Object custodian: Special Collections
Related Collection: Special Collections Oral History Program
Local Identifier: SCOHP_Goodrich_Lynda_20170316
Text preview (might not show all results): Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections Oral History Program Lynda Goodrich ATTENTION: © Copyright Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. "Fair use"
Show moreWestern Washington University Libraries Special Collections Oral History Program Lynda Goodrich ATTENTION: © Copyright Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. "Fair use" criteria of Section 107 of the Copyright Act of 1976 must be followed. The following materials can be used for educational and other noncommercial purposes without the written permission of Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. These materials are not to be used for resale or commercial purposes without written authorization from Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. All materials cited must be attributed to Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. TB: Today is Thursday, March 16, 2017. My name is Tamara Belts. I’m here with Lynda Goodrich and Paul Madison. We’re going to do a oral history with Lynda. I’m first going to ask her a few questions about how she got to Western, and then I think Paul will ask more about her long career here. So my first question is: How did you choose to come to Western as a student? LG: Well, first I went to PLU out of high school, and then decided -- I wanted to be a missionary, actually. Then after a year at PLU, I changed my mind and decided I wanted to be a teacher. So this was the college of education and the college to go to, so that’s why I transferred to Western. TB: So what were your dates of attendance at Western? LG: 1963 to 1966, for my BA degree. TB: And then, what -- you’ve already answered, the BA degree. And then did you get your master’s here as well? LG: I did, in 1973. I came back in 1971 as a graduate student because Margaret told me I could coach basketball and volleyball, and so that was one of the reasons I wanted to come back so I could coach. And I got my master’s degree in 1973, and then they hired me to continue coaching and teaching. TB: And I assume that that was Margaret Aitkin? LG: Margaret Aitkin. TB: Was she the athletic director or just – 1 Lynda Goodrich Edited Transcript – March 16, 2017 Campus History Collection ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED LG: No, she was the department chair. And I think she was the chair of women’s physical education at that time, and then the departments merged and she became the chair of both. And I don’t remember the year they merged, but it was a big landmark thing to do, and particularly to put a woman in charge of both, because athletics then did report to the chair of physical education. Later they separated out athletics from physical education. And when they did that, they asked me, do you want to go physical education, or do you want to go athletics? And I chose athletics. TB: So, what was your first job after leaving Western the first time? LG: I taught at West Seattle High School, physical education, for five years. TB: Okay. And then when you were at Western as a student, where did you live? Did you live in the dorms? Any favorite memories? LG: Well when I first came to Western, they didn’t have any rooms in the dorms, so we lived in one of those off campus houses, right down here on State Street, where there were six of us. A family would take you in, give you room and board. And then after a quarter, Higginson, a room opened up in Higginson, so I moved into Higginson. And then when I became I think a junior, you could move off campus. Up until then, you couldn’t move off campus until you were a junior. And most of us fled off campus because you had to be in by 10 pm on week days and 12 am on week nights, and so as soon as we were able, we, you know, found apartments. TB: And actually, could you tell us a little bit about what the dress code was then for women? LG: Yes. You had to wear skirts or dresses before 4 o’clock to all classes, and you couldn’t wear pants or shorts on campus before that time. It was pathetic. Can I add that? TB: Who were your favorite and most influential teachers, and why? LG: Well, first was Margaret Aitken. She was really a brilliant woman. I had her for several classes, theory classes. She was really demanding yet fair, and just a straight shooter, very direct. And I just thought she was really an awesome teacher. 2 Lynda Goodrich Edited Transcript – March 16, 2017 Campus History Collection ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED The second one was Lou Kilby, who taught methods. And she was -- and also coached, I was coached by her for a while in field hockey. But she was just a superb teacher, taught us a lot about how to teach, and was really inspirational. TB: So your main courses studied would have been physical education. Did you have a minor? LG: I did, history and English. TB: Okay. Anything else about what classes that you liked the best and learned the most from? LG: Well, I think I liked methods, methods of teaching. That was one of my favorite courses. I enjoyed my history and lit classes immensely too. I originally I wanted to be a history teacher, but DeLorme was the chair then, and I met with him, and he said there weren’t any jobs in history teaching unless you were a man and a coach. And so that’s why I decided to go -- truly, I was just being practical. Where were the jobs? I loved physical education too, so that’s why I went that route. TB: Okay. And then, this might end up moving on into your athletics because my next question is: Which extracurricular activities did you enjoy the most? LG: Well obviously, I played basketball, field hockey, any sport that they had going I was involved with. TB: Nothing else. I’ll probably turn it over to Paul, then. PM: Okay. Let’s go back to your days at Lake Stevens High School, a young girl, 16, 17, 18 years old, and opportunities as far as athletics and sports and your situation while you were there. LG: They were very limited. They didn’t have athletics for girls. We had what were called play days. And let’s say there’s a basketball play day, you’d sign up for it, whoever wanted to go from your school would go and meet up at a central location with all these other kids from other schools, and they’d put you, assign you on a team, never more than two from the same school on the team because they didn’t want you to be too competitive. And then we would play basketball all day, and then we would have punch and cookies afterwards. And I always call it the punch and cookie era. And this is before Title IX, and opportunities for girls were really limited. I know for myself, I loved playing basketball. I used to go to the playground and play with the boys, and that was the only place I could really play basketball. TB: Could we just insert: Would you describe what basketball was like then? LG: Well for girls – TB: For girls, yes. LG: -- it was 3-on-3, half-court basketball, and that’s what I played in high school. And then, they added a rover, so one person could go full court, so it ended up being 4-on-4 in the half court. But if you 3 Lynda Goodrich Edited Transcript – March 16, 2017 Campus History Collection ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED weren’t the rover, you could only run to half court, then you had to stop. They were just afraid that we were going to hurt our reproductive organs if we ran too much. I’m serious. PM: Oh, I know, I read it. LG: And it wasn’t until 1971 that the rules changed to 5-player basketball, which in the scheme of things isn’t that long ago. PM: Right. PM: I think one time we were talking and you talked about the fact that there was one day a year where the girls got to play a game before the men’s game. LG: Yes, we would do the juniors and the seniors, and so we would play -- we got to play before a boys’ game. And we played regular rules, and, you know, a 5-player game. And honestly, we had some great athletes when I went to school. I just look back and think, what a terrible thing that they didn’t have an opportunity to pursue that. And all of us, we were just wanting it so badly, and we’d look forward to practice and get ready for that one time. PM: So we’ll go a little bit farther ahead to Western and what women’s athletics was at the time you were at Western as an athlete, a student athlete. LG: As a student athlete? Well, it wasn’t too different from high school, except we did play other colleges in field hockey and in basketball, very limited. Probably the premiere sport though was field hockey. You know, I remember traveling to Oregon, to the University of Oregon and playing. But it was always in a tournament format. So if you played in field hockey, you might go and play for a weekend. You might play two or three or four games, kind of just -- And there wasn’t ever any standings or winloss records. It was just playing. And in basketball, we played other schools, but the same thing. We might play two games in a day. When I first started coaching, we played two games in a day, because we were trying to get games in. So, when you look back, it was tough. PM: Yes. One time you made a humorous remark about the vocations that were open to women – LG: Well, I felt for me that I could be a nurse, a secretary, or a teacher. And I didn’t like blood, I wasn’t a very good typist, so, and teaching seemed to be the best option. I remember when I was in high school, I thought I wanted to be a lawyer, and I went in to check out a book on the law. And a woman librarian said, What are you doing? And I said, Well, I’m interested in going into law. She goes, women are not lawyers, put it back. And, you know, when you look back on that, it’s amazing that women accomplished -- well it’s no wonder we revolted and said, you know, it’s about time we got some equality. 4 Lynda Goodrich Edited Transcript – March 16, 2017 Campus History Collection ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED PM: Exactly. Okay, now you’ve come through Western and you’re at West Seattle High School, and tell us a little bit about the fight or the, as far as athletics while you were there. LG: Well, there again, it was still in that era of play days, and then it evolved to sports days. And sports days where you could play as a team from your school, but you would go to a -- all of us would go, like in the Seattle school district, we would all maybe go to Rainier Beach, and we might play some other team. At least we were playing as a team, representing our school. But there were no varsity sports for girls. And everything was revolving around sports days in all the sports. And, you know, at that time was about the time that the women’s movement really started getting under way, and likewise it was the same in athletics. There are several of us that taught P.E. in the Seattle school districts, and we’d get together at somebody’s house at night and talk about, try to strategize how we could put pressure on the school district to allow girls to have athletics and varsity sports. And I look back at some of those women, I can’t remember their names, but one became head of the WIA, you know, another became the athletic director for Seattle Public Schools. So, you know, there were some women there that really had the gumption to take on the school district. And it was a fight. There was no funding. We used to sell concessions at the boys’ games, and any money we made we could use to help our teams. By the time I left, after five years, basketball and gymnastics, and I think track, were varsity sports, and then eventually the others. The others followed, but it was a struggle. TB: Just one quick one, what about tennis? LG: No. We didn’t even have tennis, I don’t think, in the Seattle School District. Probably because of facilities. You know, I doubt that the schools had tennis courts. TB: Okay. PM: So, what were the rules that you were coaching at West Seattle under, and then also, you were also involved with AAU? LG: Yes, for basketball it was the same. It was the same as the college at that time. It was, you know, half-court basketball with a rover, so basically 4-on-4 in the half court. But I, loving basketball joined an AAU team and there were several players on that that I played against, like Central or different universities, and we formed an AAU team. Which at that time, AAU was the mecca for women in sport. There was a national championship. Some of the best teams in the country, you know, Wayland Baptist was really good, the Flying Queens from Wayland Baptist. In the South, they were much more progressive than we were up here in women’s basketball. But we formed an AAU team, and we would play in Canada, and we’d play other AAU teams, but our goal obviously was to get to the national tournament, which we did. And that was 5-player basketball and full court. And I played that until I severely hurt my ankle, and so I was really limited the last couple of years, and so I was kind of the assistant coach, but I learned a lot about 5-player basketball in that experience. 5 Lynda Goodrich Edited Transcript – March 16, 2017 Campus History Collection ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED PM: Title IX starts in 1972, but a lot of people think that that’s when things [got going], but there was actually that huge movement by people such as you who took it to the point where Title IX was pushed forward. LG: Yes, I think Title IX was a result of women saying enough, enough. It was just like our group and the Seattle school district, well, that was happening I’m sure nationwide, obviously. But Title IX wasn’t just for athletics, you know, that was supposed to be a small part of it. It was for anything. Like if a university offered an engineering class, they couldn’t -- you know at that time, engineering was really under represented by women, same as the sciences. They couldn’t withhold that from a woman making that a major. That’s why Title IX says that whatever activity you have, whether it’s a class or athletics, the number of women in that program should be the same as the number of undergraduate women you have in your university. And that was the crux of Title IX. Well what happened was, and if you didn’t do it, you wouldn’t get any federal funding, so the universities were like, Ooh, we can’t lose federal funding. And they probably -- the universities probably moved quicker than the high schools, but the high schools had to follow suit as well. But it didn’t hold much teeth until [someone at] WSU filed a Title IX lawsuit and won, and I think it was Brown University. And they had to pay huge damages and it went back. And when that happened, that’s when, because there were court cases prior to that and they didn’t really get upheld, so there wasn’t the teeth into Title IX. But once it was upheld in court and those universities had to pay, you know, money speaks, and so then people started jumping on ship. PM: Do you feel like Western was a little bit ahead of the – LG: I do. I think, I think we -- I mean, it was a struggle. Let’s face it, I mean, my team won in 1972, wasn’t it? Yes, 1973 maybe, 1972-1973, to go to the national tournament in New York. We had no funding. So we did bake sales and garage sales, and kids had to bring in their own money to go. We won again the next year and we had to go to Manhattan, Kansas. Same thing. And at that point, I can remember going into Margaret Aitken and saying, Look, I’ve sold my last damn cookie. If you want to have women’s athletics, you need to start funding it, because this is ridiculous. You’re punishing us for being successful. I think they just wished we wouldn’t win because of, you know, the pressure was on. But I think because we had Margaret Aitken and myself, I think I was really pushing, and we had Mary Robinson, who was the dean of students, I think our university was ahead of it. And that was obvious in our success. We were successful from the get go, and part of that was because of the women who were here at that time. And I think, you know, Western prides itself on being liberal and forward thinking, and I think it was even that way then. PM: We were talking when we won our first regional championship. We’d lost to Washington State the year before. Now you and Western Washington and Washington State are in the championship game again, and unlike the first one, it gets to be played at Western. Can you tell about that story about it how it ended up being played not in the Gym D or in the little gym or the women’s gym, but it became, got to be played in the main gym – 6 Lynda Goodrich Edited Transcript – March 16, 2017 Campus History Collection ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED LG: Old Carver, that it’s called now. It used to be called Gym D and the women’s gym, and that’s where we played our games. But since we got to host, I convinced Boyde Long and Chuck Randall, although remember that game was played in the afternoon so we wouldn’t interfere with any of their games, to play it on the main court. And I think we had about 2,000 people there. PM: Yes, it was huge. LG: It’s considered the largest crowd to see a women’s basketball game nationally. And I think we only won by – PM: Two points. LG: -- two points. It was really a close game. And my favorite memory of that game now is when there was a crucial time we scored a basket, it’s coming down to the wire, and all the way across the gym, this male student who’s up about three or four rows jumps out of the stands cheering, and I thought, We’ve arrived! And we didn’t play any more games in the little, the girls’ gym. But we had to play in the afternoons so we didn’t interfere with the men, and then eventually, you know, things evened out. But it took a while. I have to hand it to Boyde and Chuck, I think they came around to it gnashing their teeth. I remember Chuck Randall saying to me, What must I do to keep you in the girls’ gym? I said, Well I need glass backboards. I need a clock. And that was for -- but I said, But that’s for practice only. (Laughter.) LG: And we did get those things. But I said, We’re still playing in the big gym. PM: So now, Western because of that, they’re going to New York. And one of the teams that we played there after our first, we win the first round, is Immaculata. LG: Right. PM: Immaculata was the first “Tennessee.” I mean, it was like “the” – LG: Yep. They were the -- well I think they won three straight national championships – PM: Right. They’d won one the year before. LG: -- under Cathy Rush, the coach. And there’s a great movie out called The Mighty Macs about their story. It was only a 16-team tournament. So we’re in the round of 8, and we have to play Immaculata. And the nuns of Immaculata would come to the games with their pans and wooden spoons and beat on it the whole time. And that is when, after that is when the NCAA outlawed -- (Laughter.) 7 Lynda Goodrich Edited Transcript – March 16, 2017 Campus History Collection ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED LG: -- when we became NCAA, they outlawed noise makers at games, because it was really deafening. But that was a leading reason, I think. PM: Immaculata went on to win the national title after that. That was their second one. But they only won by seven points over Western. LG: Right. We gave them a battle. PM: Yes. LG: They were good, though. PM: So now, if you could talk a little bit about the caliber of competition that you had that you were facing during your early years at Western. I mean, you’re talking about the top schools in the Pacific Northwest. LG: Yes, at that time, we were in AIAW. The women when we finally -- we got ourselves organized and we formed the Association for Intercollegiate Athletics for Women, because the NCAA and NAIA didn’t want any part of us. So we formed our own association, which in retrospect it’s too bad it went away, because it had a lot of good things about it that, you know, the stress on education first, some of the eligibility rules. I thought it was very forward thinking. Well, we all played then in the AIAW, and so that meant in the Northwest, we kind of -- and I think we were in a conference. I’m trying to remember. But we would play, you know, U of W, WSU, Oregon, Oregon State, Boise State, Idaho, and we were in that league more -- we didn’t play the small schools. The smaller schools, the PLUs, those, they were in their own conference, the religious school conference I think. PM: Right, Northwest Conference. LG: Yes. And so, we were in -- we played the major institutions. And then when the men realized that, and I’ve always thought that the -- I mean, we were growing, we were getting stronger, and I think it was one of those, if we don’t take them in -- Let’s take them in, then we can control them, rather than let them be on their own, because we don’t know what will happen. And so then, they enticed primarily the big schools, the WSUs, the UWs, across the country to go into the NCAA. And they offered them monies to do it, and those programs left the AIAW. And when that happened, that spelled the demise of the AIAW for all of us. And because our men were aligned with the NAIA, it made sense for us to then also align with the NAIA, and that’s what we did. And then eventually, you know, when I was the athletic director, we moved all of our programs to the NCAA Division II. And I think that was a good decision because I think the NC2A (NCAA) does have more money because of television and all the rest that they have going for them. I mean, men’s basketball television revenue funds everything. And it allowed us to, I think, flourish better, and it’s ended up well. I think we have a big conference now. 8 Lynda Goodrich Edited Transcript – March 16, 2017 Campus History Collection ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED PM: Can you just kind of state your philosophy of coaching, when you were the women’s basketball coach at Western? LG: Well, hmm, that’s a hard one I think. I think I expected my athletes to work really hard, to give it their all; and if we won, great; if we lost, okay, there’s another game. And, you know, you don’t look back, you just learn from it and move forward. And I think I would, I don’t think, I might have pushed players. I don’t think I was ever demeaning. I don’t believe in being demeaned but being positive. I learned early on in teaching that if you -- we call it coaching, “Tamara, you need to, when you’re dribbling the ball, you need to push the ball a little harder to one side,” or something, and some players would go, “She’s picking on me,” and they would never hear that. So, I soon developed to where I would say, “Tamara, that was a great pass. But on your dribble, if you could...,” and then kind of open their ears a little bit. So, I don’t know. And you know, I love the competition. I love being able to pit myself against the strategy of the game and being able to see if we can out think the other team. I don’t know if that answered your question. PM: No, it does. You won 20 games -- let’s see. You didn’t have a losing season in 19 years. You went to the post-season 18 times out of that. You had 13 20-win seasons that’s even a little discombobulating, the fact that you had to basically get to the post-season just to get 20 games. LG: Yes, right. You know, my goal when I started at Western -- Prior to the year that I start in 1971, the team had only played 8 games the previous year, so my first goal was to play 20 games, that was to me like the benchmark, and that we should play at least 20. And that’s why we had to play sometimes 2 a day to get that 20 in. But it’s like you said, I mean, we were 19-1 that second season, so it’s not a 20-win season, but 19-1 isn’t too bad, so. PM: Yes, that percentages isn’t too bad. Were there any particular teams that kind of -- I know that through 19 years and all of them pretty successful, or very successful. But were there any teams that kind of you think about or moments or national, get in the nationals or – LG: You know, somebody asked me that question, so I have thought about it, and I think there are three. There’s the team that won 30-some games, and that was just an incredible year. I mean, to get to 30 wins, and I don’t know what we ended up. Was it 30 or 31, or something? PM: That was back in 1985 or – 1989. LG: Yes. The one with Anna Rabel, yes. PM: That would be 1989. LG: And that was a really spectacular year. 9 Lynda Goodrich Edited Transcript – March 16, 2017 Campus History Collection ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED Then there’s the year that -- when Carmen played and we beat Gonzaga in the regionals here. And I’ll never forget that game. It was really back and forth. I remember Carmen -- there was a tie ball, and then we used to jump the tie balls. We take a timeout, and I said, First of all, we’ve got to get the tip. We were down, I think by, what, two points? One point? We have to control the tip. And then we set up this play for Lynda Dart. And Carmen said -- I said, Carmen, you’ve got to get the tip. She goes, I will get the tip. And I think she might have even held [that other player] (inaudible, laughter). We got the tip, Lynda Dart scores, and we win. And remember, there were still some seconds left, and my bench just, and my assistant coach, Linda [Hopper rushed the court, like, ahh... And I know I was like, game face on, grabbing her, Get back, there’s still seconds left. Because, you know, we still had to keep them from scoring. And so it was like, I don’t know how long afterwards. They were making the presentation. I still am like, we could have lost that game because you rushed the court. And I remember Anne Cooper was standing next to me, our team captain. She goes, Coach, we won, you can smile now. (Laughter.) LG: And then the other one was the year that Cheryl Boxx and Lori deKubber and that group played. And we weren’t very good in the beginning, and I thought, this is going to be a hard year. And they just worked so hard and got better and better. And we ended up going to Lewiston, Lewis-Clark to play, and we won. And then we had to go to Great Falls, and we won. And then we had to come back to Seattle to do the Final Four, and we stopped, and we’re driving, you know, two or three cars, because they didn’t do busses then. So we stopped in Spokane to practice at Eastern, and I’m thinking, How did this team get here? But I’m giving this talk like, You’ve got to believe. You know, we’re playing Idaho, who was really good. And I said, We can do it. You’ve just got to believe. And whatever it was. And Cheryl Boxx, I remember, that she walks up to me and goes, Coach, I believe. And, you know, we almost won that game. Lori deKubber made a shot and they ruled that it went off after the clock and we lost. PM: Oh wow. TB: Oh. LG: And you know, that was just an amazing year, so. But, you know, they all had their own story to tell. Every season has a story to tell. PM: I think some people, they think of women’s basketball as not being physical, but I just, I remember -- you might want to tell some stories about the Gonzagas and the rivalry that we had for a while. LG: Yes, we had a huge rivalry with Gonzaga because we were the two best teams. And they had a couple players on their team that were really mouthy. But I remember when we played them here, the one player, she always would get technicals in a game. And I remember we had a student hold up a sign that said, So-and-so, your technical average is better than your GPA. (Laughter.) LG: But only at Western, you know, it’s kind of like -- So we did our part to incite that too. And we’re over there, and we -- I can’t remember, even, if we won. I think we won. And that’s when Boyde was the athletic director. He was over there. And the baseball team would sit along the sidelines and just harass our team. And I remember one time, Lori deKubber is taking the ball out of bounds, and this guy, 10 Lynda Goodrich Edited Transcript – March 16, 2017 Campus History Collection ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED a baseball player, reaches up and grabs her shorts and pulls her shorts down. And she took her hand, put one hand on the ball, took the other hand and knocked his hand off her butt, and the official gives her a technical foul. And I can remember just losing it, and I remember going toward that official with the thought, He’s a little guy, I’m going to pick him up (laughter) and I’m going to throw him across the court. And I remember my hands were like this and I’m like, take a breath. And I go, What kind of call was that? And he goes, I’ve got to protect the fans. I said, You should be protecting the players. But anyway, then after that game, they’re shaking hands, and suddenly these fans rush the court and start getting in a fight. I think it happened with two of our players exchanging, or our player and their player. Somebody threw a punch, and it’s like emptying -- I was getting my stuff on the bench with my back [to the floor], and all of a sudden I see this body slide across the floor. And I remember thinking what the heck, and Boyde was rushing out. It was just a mess. We don’t have to play them anymore, I think technically. PM: Yes. So now you’re going to make the transition from coach to AD. Any thoughts about that time? LG: Well you know, that was an interesting time. I loved coaching. I didn’t have thoughts about becoming an athletic director. Boyde resigned. And the president then, G. Robert Ross, who I knew. I mean, we used to play tennis together. He calls me, he said, Would you apply for the job? I’m going to do an internal search. And I go, I don’t want to be the AD. I don’t want to be, I mean, over men and women, no, I don’t want to be that, you know, pathfinder. I’ve done that. And I watched Margaret Aitken go through the stuff she had to go through. And I said, Why would I want to do that? You don’t pay me enough as a basketball coach. He goes, Well, I’ll pay you a little more. And I go, I don’t know, I’ll have to think about it. And so he convinced me, so I applied, then got the job. And I said, Well I’m not going to give up coaching, because I thought, if I don’t like what I’m doing, I can always go back to coaching. And so I did both for three years. But I was hired in May, and in November, Ross and Jeanne DeLille, and – TB: Cole. LG: -- Don Cole were killed in the plane wreck. And I really thought, I think I’m not going to do this because it was hard being a woman AD over both. There were very few of us in the country. And men weren’t very accepting of having a woman over their programs. And I thought, I can do it as long as you have the support of the president. I mean, that’s the most important person on campus, and as long as I had him, I felt comfortable. But when he died, I thought, maybe I should step back. And at his memorial, Betty Ross comes up to me and hugs me, and she’s hugging me and she goes, You do a good job. Bob had a lot of faith in you. So you make sure that you show them that he was right. And I’m thinking, Christ, now I got to do this. But I coached then for three years before I decided, okay, I could do it. Plus Carmen was my assistant then, and she was itching to become a head coach. And I wasn’t really ready to step down then because I had a good team. But I knew that if I didn’t step down, let her take the reins that we’d lose her, that she would go somewhere else as a head coach, because she was ready. 11 Lynda Goodrich Edited Transcript – March 16, 2017 Campus History Collection ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED And that’s probably the best decision I ever made as an athletic director in hiring, because she’s proven to be just one of the best coaches in the country, if not the best coach. PM: Speaking of that, more often than not, I mean, like way more often than not, the coaches that you hired were coaches that had never been head coaches at the collegiate level. LG: I know. PM: That isn’t so much the question, but it’s just like, what were some of the things that you looked for in a coach when you made these hiring decisions. LG: You know, what’s really funny is I didn’t realize that until somebody listed out all the coaches that I had hired that hadn’t had head coaching experience. And you know at the time, even though that’s a factor, their experience is a factor, I mean, that’s something you take into consideration, but more important to me was what their philosophy was, how they were with people. And I think -- I don’t mean to sound like I’m bragging, but I think one of my greatest strengths is being able to read people. I get a sense about a person, and so I listen to it. And that’s what I did in many of the hires. I just felt like they were the right fit for Western after talking with them, reading their letters, but really, after meeting with them and talking to them. And it’s worked out okay. PM: Yes, more than okay. The move from the NAIA to NCAA Division II, we were in a tough spot with the NAIA with football and that type of different situation, but what kind of happened during that time to kind of push that – LG: Yes, you know, like I said, the NAIA was losing its prestige, but then one of the major issues was in football we were aligned with schools in the private sector, Linfield, PLU, Pacific, Lewis-Clark, and they opted to go NCAA Division III. And I remember meeting with them and said -- and they didn’t want to have Western or Central or any of us in there. And so I met with them and said, If we went Division III, would you play us, would you put us in your football conference? And they said no. And there was no cajoling on that. In fact, Eastern Oregon worked for years to try to get them to take them in, and they just were not going to have any part of a public institution in their conference. So then we had to look. Did we want to stay and try to be independent in football? Or did we want to look at going NCAA ourselves? Then at that time, I think Seattle Pacific was NCAA, maybe Billings, and so I did a lot of -- and Karen Morse helped a lot in talking to presidents. I talked with ADs about getting a conference together of Division II schools. And we started with the Hawaii’s with us, and then had to break that apart. But we really didn’t have a choice, I didn’t think, and joining NCAA was a good fit for us, at Division II. And competitively it was a good fit. So you know, it did cost us a little more money than the NAIA because of somethings, but I think in the long run it’s worked out really well. PM: Back in 1989, you made the decision to hire Rob Smith, and that was a tough situation because you’re the woman AD and making decisions about football, and your thoughts about the program at that time and what would eventually happen. 12 Lynda Goodrich Edited Transcript – March 16, 2017 Campus History Collection ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED LG: Well, prior to that I fired the football coach, which was like, How could a woman [fire a football coach]? You know, it was interesting because Ross and I had that discussion about the football program and whether that coach would continue, and we both agreed to give him another year and then make that decision, but probably he was done. So I made it anyway. And Al Froderberg was the acting president -- no, actually Mortimer came in. PM: Right. LG: And I know Mortimer used to tease me about -- one of the first things that happened when he took the presidency is I fired the football coach. And there was an uproar, and then Rob was an assistant in our program, and I just thought he was a great fit for us, and he was. I mean, he turned out to be just an awesome football coach. PM: And the best years ever -LG: Yes. And then he decided to hang it up, and now he’s back coaching. And then we hired Robin Ross, and then we eventually had to drop the program because of the state cutting our budget tremendously. PM: I remember you at the time saying either we are going to do well in it, or … (Laughter.) LG: Well I felt like it. PM: And he did. LG: Yes, I think football is -- you know, at the big schools it’s the goose that lays the golden egg. All their money comes from football, TV, gate and so on. That’s not the case at our level. Most of our budget goes to support football. But if you’re good at it, then it helps every program be successful, because an interesting thing with people, and I still hear it in the community, if football and men’s basketball are doing well, then the whole program must be good. They don’t think about the soccer and the women’s programs or anything else. It’s always those two. And football was really terrible for a long time at our institution, and it drug the full program down, you know, trying to get donations, trying to get things funded. People would only look at that and just think it’s not worth it. But then, the hiring of Rob and getting some more resources in that program, we became very good, and it helped everybody. PM: Seven national titles in women’s rowing, one in softball while we were in the NAIA, and then the men’s basketball, I mean, (inaudible, pretty amazing things. LG: Yeah, honestly I’m so proud of those national championships. It’s so hard to win a national championship in any sport, to accomplish that is just a real testament to the athletes and the coaches and our program. And you know, we’ve had volleyball’s been a runner up a couple, I mean, right there at the door, and now women’s soccer winning. I mean, it’s just a great testament to the program, I think, and you hold on to those. And we’ve had a lot of individual national champions in track and field. 13 Lynda Goodrich Edited Transcript – March 16, 2017 Campus History Collection ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED But it’s a hard thing to do, and it’s especially hard in a team sport like men’s basketball. That was a special time. PM: As an AD, there were so many things that we would do just to say, you know, we’re going to do this. And you know, it might be Viking night, or it might be some kind of a fundraiser, or it might be different things. What are some of the things that you thought were some of the main accomplishments that you [were involved in]? LG: Well I think – PM: Other than the national championships. LG: I think a couple. I think I was really instrumental in the state funding tuition waivers for women athletes, which boded well for all of our programs. You know, I served on a committee, a state committee that met with the legislature, and we put a lot of pressure on it. And in 1989, that came to fruition. And that opened the door for scholarships, which we had been lacking. And then I think with that, it really -- coupled with that but also aside, I recognized that we really needed to -- you know, you’re not going to get the money from the state or the institution, you are going to have to do it for yourself. So you’ve got to find a way to make some money to fund the program, because honestly what the state gives us and the institution can give us, isn’t enough. You have to fundraise. And prior to me becoming AD, we had zero dollars in scholarships monies or in the foundation. And I don’t know how many millions it’s up to, but it is in endowed scholarships, and plus the annual fundraisers that we do to help fund the program. I just think, you know, even the signage, the sign boards that we did was an opportunity to get marketing dollars in for our program. And that was huge. So, I would think that, I would count that as one of my major accomplishments, was to get us moving in that direction. PM: You never seemed to be afraid to try something. LG: No. You know, I don’t, and that’s silly, isn’t it? (Laughter.) I know. Well I talk to people, and you’re in counsel and coaches, and I just believe that sometimes you have to take risks to succeed. Sometimes your risks work and sometimes they don’t. But if you don’t ever try, you’ll never know, so you might as well put yourself out there and go for it. And within reason, I mean, you can’t bankrupt everything. But you know, we had some really good things, so I think a Battle in Seattle was a huge risk because we had to come up, you know, guarantee a lot of money, but that really ended up being a great, great thing for us. PM: Just, your philosophy of life? 14 Lynda Goodrich Edited Transcript – March 16, 2017 Campus History Collection ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED LG: Well, I’m the eternal optimist, as you know, Paul. I always see the glass half full and always live for today. And I think about tomorrow. I don’t worry about yesterday. And I just, the sun’s always shining for me. And I’d rather live that way than the other. I don’t hold grudges, and I don’t want to be bitter about anything, because all that does is make me, you know, bitter. So I know I’m probably sometimes overly rosy-filled glasses, but it’s okay. PM: Better than the other way. LG: Yes. PM: Looking back would you ever have thought like that you would be a Golden Viking? LG: That’s amazing, isn’t it? I know it. I went to my 50-year reunion in high school a few years ago, and I’m like, 50 years and they all look so old. (Laughter.) LG: And yes, I’m a Golden Viking plus one. PM: Yes, that’s amazing. What are some of the things that you like to do, like, not just now, but I mean throughout your time at Western as a coach and as an AD, some of the things you liked to do away from -- just, I thought one of the neat things about you is the fact that you actually had a life. You actually made sure that you still had a life. LG: And you know, I preach that to our staff too, coaches, you, everybody: Make sure that you have balance in your life, because I think that’s really important. If you put all your eggs in that basket, you know, it’s not healthy, and so you have to have balance. Early on, I played a lot of golf. I loved golf. I liked competitive golf. And then I became the AD, and that kind of went by the wayside because I didn’t have enough, as much time. And golf is a time consuming sport. I’ve always loved gardening. And you know, my house I think I’ve been through three remodels, and the gardens are always changing things there. But you know, that gives me a lot of pleasure. Actually, I’m really glad I have that. I have five acres, and it allows me that to do in my retirement. You know, I’d hate to think about retiring and not having a hobby or anything to go to. And I like activities. I like to exercise, so I try to make that a part of every day. I like to read. I like to do crossword puzzles, as you know. I’m into jigsaw puzzles now. And once in a while, I play a little blackjack. (Laughter.) LG: It’s that gambling thing. 15 Lynda Goodrich Edited Transcript – March 16, 2017 Campus History Collection ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED TB: I had a couple more, just a little bit, talk about again, like your relationships with presidents. You talked about how important Ross was. Can you talk a little bit about how your relationships with the other presidents, how important? Because you and Morse especially – LG: Well, my first president after Ross was Mortimer, and at that time the AD reported to the president, and then he moved me to the vice president, to Saunie Taylor. But that wasn’t, I didn’t take it as a slight. He moved other people that had been reporting to the president that way. And I probably had less to do with him after I moved reportage than others. Then Karen Morse became president and we had her for for fifteen years. And she and her husband really loved athletics, so that was great for us because she came to games, you know, went on the road, and was just -- became a good friend. And you know, I cherished that. And then we had Bruce, who I just think was really a great president. I really respect him. Totally different personality than Karen, but really a good man. I will always be thankful to him for when we faced the challenge of dropping football, how he handled it. He stood up and said, This is my decision. And he took the brunt of it. I mean, I got my share of nasty emails, but he took the brunt of it. And you know, I’ve seen other institutions where the presidents weren’t so giving. They kind of threw the AD under the bus, and he never did that. And I always admired that in him. And then, he was my last one. TB: What about, you know, you mentioned you used to play tennis with Ross, was that -- I guess I’m trying to get at, is there a kind of a political, or was it strictly just playing tennis or – LG: Yes, because he was a tennis player, and I had played tennis at the time. I used to play tennis at the tennis club all the time. And so he found out I played tennis, and he liked to play once in a while, and so he would arrange some double matches. I can remember one where Irwin LeCocq was on the board of trustees, and he was playing with Ann Heaps, who was in our Counseling Center, and Ross and I, we would play them. And Irwin was a smartass, and he was giving us the worst time. And I went back to serve, and Ross walked back with me, which is unusual in tennis because usually your partner stays up. And I said, What are you doing back here? And he goes, You know what’s worse than playing with a board of trustee member? No, I don’t know. He goes, One that’s a smartass. (Laughter.) LG: I’ll never forget that. And then, one time he had to really run to get a ball that was over, and he finally got there and lobbed it back, and he goes, Well it took me a while, but I did get there. And he was a big man, so he was fun. TB: Well, is there anything else that, especially Paul, but that we haven’t asked you that you think is an important part of your story here at Western? LG: I can’t think of anything. You guys asked a lot of questions. You covered it from the beginning to the end almost. 16 Lynda Goodrich Edited Transcript – March 16, 2017 Campus History Collection ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED PM: (Inaudible.) You talked about your mentors, I mean, like Dr .Aitken and Kilby, and I guess the only thing that we didn’t bring up was how Dr. Ames, who was the basketball coach, one of the basketball coaches when Lynda was there, would take Lynda out of the game because of the look on her face. LG: She did that once. (Laughter.) Yes, I was very intense. I used to design plays, even then. I’d say, you know -- and I didn’t even know what they were called. PM: Wow. LG: Because I hadn’t been taught. But I’d basically design give and goes, and pick and rolls. And I’d say I think we can score on this, and I’d show them to her. And we’d practice it and do it. (Laughter.) TB: I did have one more question though that we will keep in, maybe. I mean, it’s just that I appreciate the fact that you continued to stay. I mean, you’re at all the games and stuff like that. Actually both of you are. But I mean, how’s that when you’re -- is it nicer to go because you don’t have any obligation, or is it sometimes you think, oh come on? LG: No, I sit there and go, go to zone, do this, put in so and so. But then when the game’s over, it’s over for me. But you know, I was that way anyway, so. I really enjoy going, but it’s nice that I don’t have to get there until game time, and I can leave right after the game. Because Paul will tell you, that wasn’t the case when you’re working. You know, on game nights you’re there a long time, Paul much longer than the rest of us, yes. PM: Amen. Yes, before and after. TB: Well terrific! Well thank you both very much. This was really awesome. LG: Thank you. TB: So thank you. 17 Lynda Goodrich Edited Transcript – March 16, 2017 Campus History Collection ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED
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Title: Nancy (Beebe) Ervine interview--October 4, 2016
Date: 2016-10-04
Description: Nancy Beebe Ervine first attended Western in the Fall 1966 completing her degree in 1974. Following graduation she held various teaching positions in rural Alaska before settling in Anchorage, Alaska.
Digital Collection: Special Collections Oral History Program
Type of resource: text
Object custodian: Special Collections
Related Collection: Special Collections Oral History Program
Local Identifier: SCOHP_Ervine_Nancy_20161004
Text preview (might not show all results): Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections Oral History Program Nancy Ervine ATTENTION: © Copyright Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. "Fair use" c
Show moreWestern Washington University Libraries Special Collections Oral History Program Nancy Ervine ATTENTION: © Copyright Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. "Fair use" criteria of Section 107 of the Copyright Act of 1976 must be followed. The following materials can be used for educational and other noncommercial purposes without the written permission of Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. These materials are not to be used for resale or commercial purposes without written authorization from Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. All materials cited must be attributed to Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. TB: Today is Tuesday, October 4, 2016, and I am here with Nancy Beebe Ervine, who is an alumna of Western. And our first question is: Why did you choose to come to Western? NE: I really don’t know, except that my parents are both college graduates and they expected their kids to go to college, and the time came and somebody said, you ought to look at Western. And we drove up here one day and drove around, and went home and applied, and sure enough this was where I wound up. That’s really all I know. I was very quiet and shy and terrified of doing most anything. TB: And so, I think you came up just with your parents, correct? NE: Yes. TB: Now, they do a lot of different summer starts and different programs to have students see campus ahead of time. NE: I had no high school counselor. He died my freshman year, and they never replaced him. They probably have now, but not during my high school years. I had no counseling, no nothing. TB: And where did you go to high school? NE: Vashon Island High School. TB: Okay. And so what were your dates of attendance at Western? NE: I started in the fall of 1966, and I went through spring of 1970, I believe, and Gene and I got married in 1970, the summer of 1970. I got sick, it seems, and I didn’t come back for a couple of quarters, and then I finished I think in 1971. TB: What degrees or certificates did you receive from Western? NE: I got a teaching certificate and a degree in elementary education. 1 Nancy (Beebe) Ervine Edited Transcript – October 4, 2016 Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED TB: So everything you did was in education. NE: No. TB: Okay. NE: I was very interested in math and science and art, and I had in my head I wanted to be an architect. I knew nothing about how to become an architect or where to go, and why my parents didn’t encourage me to find out any of that, I do not know. It’s a sadness in my life. But I came here as a math major, and I had in high school I’d taken advanced math and science. I took physics, a couple years of physics in high school, and placed high on the entrance exams, which put me with upper division boys in my math and physics classes, and I couldn’t handle it. I had a -- my first advisor here was in the math department, and the one time I ever spoke to him, he said, Girls don’t make good math majors. So by the end of my freshman year, I thought, I’m not going to do that anymore. And so I kind of thrashed around, took a bunch of different things, took some of the requirements. They used to have a seven credit requirement, I can’t remember what it was called, humanities [Gen Ed], maybe? TB: [Oh, okay]. NE: And I didn’t take that my freshman year. It would have been probably different if I had. I took it sophomore or junior year, and that kind of opened a few new avenues for me. I liked art, took some art. By the time it was time to graduate, the fastest thing I could do was graduate in art education, so I did, student taught in high school art. TB: And where did you do that at? NE: That was in Deming. TB: Oh, okay. NE: With a Western, I believe he was a Western alum, Gary Sirguy was the art teacher there. And I really struggled. I wasn’t much older than the high school kids. I was too shy. But at least I was a graduate by then. TB: So you graduated and then you went and student taught? NE: No, I student taught -- I think I student taught spring quarter of 1970, and I didn’t graduate until a couple of quarters later. TB: Okay. So have you received any other degrees anywhere else? NE: I worked on my Master of Education in Alaska, at the University of Alaska. TB: At Anchorage, then? NE: Anchorage. 2 Nancy (Beebe) Ervine Edited Transcript – October 4, 2016 Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED TB: And then what was your first job after leaving Western? And any distinctive memories of this experience? NE: Well I should say that I realized that I couldn’t teach high school, and I had done enough with elementary students to realize I really loved them, and I wanted to teach elementary. Gene and I came back to school in 1974, and I got my elementary certificate then and student taught in elementary in Sedro Woolley, in fifth grade. So 1974 I finished my -- I took, I think, just one quarter of classes. I must have been almost there when I graduated originally. And student taught, and it was then that I saw -- I was walking through Miller Hall one day, and I saw a little notice on the wall on a 3x5 card, typed: We need a teacher in a one-room school in a logging camp 50 air miles north of Sitka. And it told where to write, and I wrote. I went home, showed Gene this notice. I was just finishing up my student teaching. And he said, Oh, I’ll help you apply. So he did. I mailed off my application. Ten days later I got a telegram. TB: Wow! NE: Offering me a job, for $11,000 a year. TB: Wow. NE: And I thought that was all the money in the world. I’d be making more than the students who were graduating and teaching in Whatcom County. So that was my first job after finishing my elementary certificate. TB: Okay. And then I assume that you and Gene went up there together. NE: We did. We went up together. He was very reluctant to. He had a close family in Mount Vernon, and even though he had helped me apply, he -- I guess he didn’t expect me to get it (laughter). But, we did go up together, and he worked in the logging camp. I taught 23 students in Kindergarten through eighth grade, supervised high school kids in the evenings on their correspondence studies. And did that for two years. TB: Awesome. And then where did you go? NE: Then we went to Sitka, and I taught in Sitka for six years, I taught third grade. And the year before - well during my fifth year, I had a little girl, and I wanted to quit teaching and stay home. After six years, then Gene was working full time with the National Park Service, and I was able to stay home. We moved to Skagway, where his job was. TB: Nice. NE: Undoubtedly you’ve been there. TB: Yes; and so did you not teach again or work outside the home again? NE: I did work outside the home again. I took fourteen years off, and then we wound up in Anchorage, and I went back to -- I started substituting. I’d let my certificate lapse, which is a really dumb thing to do, 3 Nancy (Beebe) Ervine Edited Transcript – October 4, 2016 Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED so I had to go back to school, which I did. It was good because the education community at that time had a different philosophy. Everything was cooperative education, which fascinated me. All these new cooperative models for teaching and learning was very interesting to me. I subbed for a little while. My daughter, who was in about the third grade when I started subbing, said to me the first day I went out to substitute teach in a Kindergarten class, Mom, don’t show fear. They can sense it. TB: Wisdom from your daughter. NE: Yes. She’s a very wise young lady. TB: Nice, nice. So did you keep substituting, or did you start getting a regular class? NE: I substituted for a while. I was very interested in the Anchorage school district because it was so diverse. Here’s a little factoid -- of the twenty most diverse elementary schools in the country, the top nineteen are in Anchorage. TB: Wow, wow. So, what composes their diversity? NE: Well, there is a definition. To be considered diverse, they have to have so many different cultures or native groups of people in them, so many different languages, and a percentage of the total school population has to be considered diverse. I taught in a fifth and sixth grade up there, in a special program, and then I moved to the gifted program. I studied gifted education at that point. I had moved into the gifted program and taught in the most diverse schools in the gifted program in Anchorage, which was fascinating. TB: Nice. And then how long did you do that for? Until you retired or? NE: I did that until I retired, which I ended up retiring early because I developed a muscle problem and I could not -- I couldn’t do it, great big buildings. But I didn’t want to retire. I loved it. TB: Nice. Now we’ll come back to your experiences at Western. So, where did you live, at home, in a dorm, with a local family? Any favorite memories? Looking up in the directories for the time, I know that you lived in Sigma? NE: I started out in Sigma, as a freshman, and I liked Sigma. Like I said, I was very quiet. I did not make many friends. TB: Because wasn’t 504 called the penthouse? NE: Yes. TB: I lived in Sigma, too. We had the pit and the penthouse, right? Because that’s one dorm that spans five floors. NE: Yes. And the first is way down in the pit, yes. I was there when a student from Juneau set the dorm on fire. 4 Nancy (Beebe) Ervine Edited Transcript – October 4, 2016 Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED TB: Ooh, tell me more. NE: Well, I don’t know much about it, but I do know the fire engines came and we had to get out of the building. But she threw a match in a, apparently intentionally, in a waste basket and set the curtain on fire. But the building is cement, and it did a little damage, [so] we were able to move right back in. TB: Oh, okay. NE: I started out on the third floor and convinced my parents that I needed to move to the fifth floor. TB: Because those were all single rooms, right? NE: The fifth floor had five single rooms in it, yes. A guy that was in one of my physics classes had lived in Sigma when it was a men’s dorm, and he told me where to look in the dorm where he had punched a hole in the wall. It had been covered by a blank switch plate. He covered it, but he said he left a little note inside. So I found this little note inside, and put it back in, screwed it back on. TB: Oh, a secret. So that’s on the fifth floor? NE: That was on the fifth floor. TB: Okay. And then, so you lived in Sigma for two years? NE: I think I moved maybe my sophomore year? TB: Okay. NE: I can’t really remember. Toward the end of my sophomore year, I moved into an apartment on 23rd Street, directly across from the Burns’ little cabin off there in the woods. TB: Oh sure, yes. NE: And I knew about the Burns because my sister was living on Waldron Island at the time. So I lived directly across from that. It was a two-story, old house there. My roommate and I had the top floor. TB: And that was probably before they put in College Drive or something. Would that be right? NE: They didn’t call it College Drive. TB: [Maybe] they called it 23rd then or something. NE: There’s 21st and 23rd. Oh, I know. My first home off campus was in the old Quaker meeting hall. TB: Which was? NE: On 21st Street, in an old white house just immediately below campus, where campus was at the time. Howard Harris, a sociology professor and his wife [Rosemary}, they owned the building, they 5 Nancy (Beebe) Ervine Edited Transcript – October 4, 2016 Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED called it the Center for Learning [Ed. Note: 438 21st Street]. They had a little school there. And I helped out in the school, and I lived upstairs in their building. TB: Okay. Did you do any babysitting for them? They had quite a few children. NE: They had six children. Their children were all in the school. I did not babysit. Their kids came every day to school there, and I helped out in the school. I taught math and art, and I was taught about how math and art are integrated. That fascinated me. TB: Are you skilled at music? Because music fits in there oftentimes too. NE: No. TB: Okay. So who were your favorite or most influential teachers, and why? NE: My teacher I remember the most was my math education teacher, who just opened my eyes to teaching math through projects, and she’d written the textbook we used. And her last name was Kelley, I believe. Margaret Kelley? Something Kelley. [Ed. Note: Sara Jeanne Kelley]. TB: Okay. NE: The book was called Math activities for young children. I’m sure I still have the book. TB: So that was kind of a good experience since you had a real heart for math, to then have a positive experience, having your freshman year not having been so positive. NE: I think that yes, yes, absolutely, and I realized at that point that I wanted to be an elementary teacher. And I tried to take more classes like that, but I couldn’t find them. TB: And do you have any other favorite or influential teachers? NE: Oh golly, I hate to say, I can’t remember. I do remember some of my art teachers. TB: Go for it. NE: Mr. [Dahlen] did a sculpture class, and I did very mathematical, precise sculptures. That was kind of fun. TB: Did you have Ms. Kelsey, Ruth Kelsey? She would have been drawing. I think Hazel Breakey was probably was retired by then. NE: I took weaving from Mary McIntyre. Wonderful teacher, I really liked her. And that encouraged me to get a loom and a spinning wheel which I recently sold. I kind of felt like I was on my own a lot. TB: So my next question is: What was your main course of study? And it would have been elementary education, art, a little bit of math education too? 6 Nancy (Beebe) Ervine Edited Transcript – October 4, 2016 Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED NE: Mm-hmm. TB: Okay. Try to get a little bit more, I think we’ve kind of got this, but what classes did you like the best or learn the most from? NE: Well I probably learned the most from elementary reading because I had no idea how to teach reading, and that was one of the classes I came back and took in 1974. TB: So who did you have for that? Did you have Dr. Mork? I’m not sure if that’s what he did. NE: Boy, I don’t know. I’m sorry, I just – TB: It’s just fine. What extracurricular activities did you enjoy the most? NE: Sailing. TB: Nice! So did you take a sailing class at Western, or just because you’re from Vashon Island – NE: I grew up sailing. We always had sailboats. I’d sailed a lot. And that was one area where I as a freshman, I was willing to seek out the sailing club. Sailing is very mathematical. I did a lot of sailing out at the lake, Lake Whatcom, the Lakewood property. I raced. TB: Okay. Is that on the International 420s? Or was there an earlier version? NE: No we had Penguins. And at that point, I was a crew member because the only skippers were males, so I crewed and the guys liked me as a crew member because I was very cool and precise. TB: And so that was out at the lake or? NE: Out at the lake. And we raced. We went to Vancouver and raced. We raced on Lake Washington, Puget Sound, Tacoma, wherever the team needed to go. TB: And so that was a coed team? NE: That was a coed team. TB: Okay. Now did you ever race on Bellingham Bay? Any of the Wednesday night series or Thursday night? NE: No. TB: So do you have any other special memories of the sailing, like where else that you might’ve went that were really cool or? NE: Sailing, going with the sailing team up to Vancouver was really fun. We capsized once on Lake Whatcom. The skipper was John Clark, and he was at the helm when we capsized. He always liked me because he said I was so cool, cool under pressure. 7 Nancy (Beebe) Ervine Edited Transcript – October 4, 2016 Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED TB: Well, you would’ve been really confident having grown up on a boat, like, or down on Vashon. NE: That was one of the few things I was confident about. TB: Interesting. NE: I also skied. I don’t know if the school had a ski team or not. TB: It probably did. I would think so. NE: But I went up to Mt. Baker and skied. I wanted to teach up there. Franz Goebel ran the ski school. He said I didn’t fit the image of a ski instructor. TB: Were they all men? NE: Mostly, but they were very flashy too, and I wasn’t flashy at all, and I had my old wool baggy pants I wore, and my old parka, and I think that he sold equipment too. TB: Oh, and you weren’t buying it. NE: I wasn’t buying it (laughter). TB: That’s kind of cute. Well I have to ask this, so how did you meet Gene? NE: Well, Phil -- Dr. Kennedy out there, was dating a roommate of mine when I lived on 23rd, across from Fairhaven. My roommate was Phyllis. She had also been in Sigma, and we wound up in this little apartment together, I think my junior year. Gene had started out at Whitworth, and he was transferring over here. Gene’s very good friend, Dale Zeretzke, was going to school here, and he knew Phil because he was in the dorm with Phil, and Phil played the pipes, and Gene loved bagpipes. So Dale would take Phil home, I guess, he lived in Mount Vernon also, and took them up to the Ervine place, which was up in the hills. Gene grew up in just a little house up there without electricity or indoor plumbing when he was young. Phil would go up there and play his pipes for Gene’s dad, who was Canadian and loved the pipes. And Phil said to Phyllis, Well, my friend Gene Ervine, who’s kind of a weird guy, is coming here next year and, Phyllis, I want you and Nancy to look in on him and make sure he’s okay. And Phyllis said, Okay, okay, okay. So Gene’s first day on campus was a couple of days before classes started. So Phyllis and I were walking across campus, across Red Square. We were going into the library, and here comes this tall, string bean of a guy coming out of the library, and we met on the steps of the Mabel Zoe Wilson Library. And Phyllis said, Oh there’s that guy we’re supposed to look after. So she introduced me to Gene, and she said to Gene, Well we’ll have to invite you over for dinner someday. So we talked for a minute, and 8 Nancy (Beebe) Ervine Edited Transcript – October 4, 2016 Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED Phyllis and I walked on and Gene went on his way. And I said, Hey, Phyllis, when are you going to invite him over (laughter)? And she said, Oh, Nancy, don’t be silly, I’m not going to, that’s just something you say to be polite. And I’ve never forgotten that because I didn’t know that. I didn’t know that was one of those greetings, you know, kind of an elevator type greeting. Anyway, I bugged her enough that finally she said, Okay, I’ll invite him over. So she did. He came over and read poetry, and we hit it off, so spent time together. The rest is history, two years later we were married, that was 46 years ago. TB: Nice, nice. Wow, nice. But you must have a real appreciation for poetry too. NE: Well, I learned to have an appreciation for it. My mother was also an English major and is a writer, and my dad had an appreciation for poetry and gave me a couple of nice poetry books when I was in high school. TB: Do you have any other outstanding memories of your college days? NE: I just remember feeling independent, and I spent a lot of time by myself. I walked a lot. I covered Bellingham on foot. I remember sitting and reading outside, and sitting in Red Square. I remember I could get a cup of coffee for five cents ($.05), or seven cents ($.07), and then ten cents ($.10) for a big cup, seven cents ($.07) for just a small ceramic cup, ten cents ($.10) for a mug. Does that sound right? TB: Could be. I didn’t drink coffee back in those days, but it seems to me I remember a pop being about ten cents, like a can of pop. I definitely when I was little bought a bottle of pop with a dime, so coffee is usually kind of close to pop, so. Is there anything else you want to say? I guess I’m fascinated about what life was like. Any other special memories you have of maybe of the logging camp life? I mean, that’s really interesting to me, having spent a summer up there. Is there anything else you can [add]? NE: Well, it was very interesting. It was interesting partly because I was the only person in camp who was not paid by the camp. So I had some independence from the rest of the crew, and I think that was kind of hard on Gene at times because he was the school teacher’s husband. He was not considered a logger. He was considered the school teacher’s husband, who happened to be logging. It was a real education for me in having so many kids of different ages. It was very difficult. I was not prepared at all. Not that it was Western’s fault. My teaching certificate, I guess, was Kindergarten through eighth grade, which they sure don’t do now. Now it’s divided more early childhood and intermediate on. But I learned a lot, learned a lot about life and a logging camp. And then in Sitka, I learned a lot about teaching. TB: One more quick question about the logging camp: Did you work the traditional September through June? Because in the wintertime, doesn’t the logging camp close down a lot and people leave? NE: Some camps more than others. Our camp did -- well, the first thing that happened was Gene’s father passed away after we’d been there two months, and we left camp and were gone a week or so. I was gone a week, I think, and I had to make up that time. There were no substitute teachers. So if I was sick, we would make it up. And we made up those days when his dad passed away by going to school on 9 Nancy (Beebe) Ervine Edited Transcript – October 4, 2016 Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED Saturdays. And usually I tried to make Saturday different. We’d go for a hike, although all the paranoid parents in camp made sure that I had somebody with me carrying a gun. TB: Oh, for the bears, yes. NE: And that was kind of fun, but different than I had ever expected. I think that first year we did go out a little later in the year. A bunch of kids left in the winter, but not all of them that first year, because it was a brand new camp and people would come up from Oregon to run the camp, and they brought their Oregon loggers with them, who had no place to go. They didn’t have homes elsewhere. However, I had a couple of kids who lived in the bunkhouse with their dads. TB: Wow. NE: And I remember one time, Gene and I were going into town, and we didn’t go very often. The weather was bad or we couldn’t fly or whatever. But it was sometime in the middle of winter, maybe January we were going in to get groceries or take a break, whatever. This father handed us a 20-dollar bill and said -- oh, he was on the plane with us with his little boy, who was one of my students – who said, You’re a teacher, you take care of Billy while we’re in town. I guess we were there for the weekend, and he was leaving town with his son for a while. He said, You take care of Billy. So he handed us $20 and said, He needs shoes and pants. So we went and bought Billy shoes and pants and fed him and went for walks, and then we gave him back to his dad. But that wasn’t unusual. Other times, the following year, a parent left camp, both parents left camp for two weeks and said, Can my kids stay with you? TB: Oh, wow. NE: There were two kids. I said, Sure. Well, when you live right there next to the school and all the families live right there too, it’s a very close community, and I got to know the kids quite well, got to know their parents quite well, which was a very tough environment for kids, very tough living, not just the environment but the home environment of loggers and the mothers who complained to each other all the time because there was no TV or radio reception. They didn’t care about radio, no TV reception, they missed their soap operas. The first year the camp, the school froze early in the year, by the end of October, and it didn’t thaw out until spring, so we had no bathrooms at school. And the kids, of course, immediately wanted to take advantage of that. I need to go to the bathroom, I need to go to the bathroom. That’s great, go home. That took care of itself really easily because those mothers didn’t want those kids coming in their house. And I knew that would take care of itself. After that, then it was just lunchtime or maybe an emergency, recess or something, they had to run [to] their house to use the bathroom. And I did the same. TB: You know, my summer, I just remember everybody would like have coffee at 9 am or 10 am or something. They were like always going to everybody’s trailer to have morning coffee, and yes, I think when I got there they were real interested in what was happening on some of the soap operas that I’d been watching when I came up there, and it was kind of cute. Anything else that I haven’t asked you that you would like to share? NE: One thing I’d like to share is that I’m very impressed, not just with Western, the teachers they’re turning out, but I think all teachers are coming out of college far better prepared than I ever was. I’ve had 10 Nancy (Beebe) Ervine Edited Transcript – October 4, 2016 Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED student teachers from the University of Alaska in my room, and I am so impressed. I talked to some young people in the teacher’s program here, and they talk about the experience they get in the classroom and what they’re learning in their classes, and it is so much more than I ever learned. I had a teacher here named Bill Heid. An interesting guy. He lived out on Lummi Island. His -- I don’t know, I was going to say his sister was a good friend of mine. His wife? It doesn’t matter. Anyway, I took an education class from him, and we all went out to the lawn, I think right here in front of the arts building, and he said, Okay, we’re just going to sit in a big circle and get in touch with our feelings. That was an education class. TB: So did you enjoy that or? NE: Not particularly. It was – TB: You’re shy. NE: I was shy, and I didn’t think I needed to express my feelings (laughter). It seemed like a waste of time, and then we had to write about it or something. And that was pretty much the whole class. Well, I think they’re better prepared now. I think their student teaching experiences are a lot better. They take more time. In Alaska, they have to student teach in two different classes, two different age groups. So, I think that’s good. TB: Nice. If you don’t have anything else, I don’t have any more questions. I will say, Thank you. NE: Okay, well, thank you. 11 Nancy (Beebe) Ervine Edited Transcript – October 4, 2016 Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED
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Title: George Drake interview--July 24, 2018
Date: 2018-07-24
Description: George Drake, WWU associate professor of Sociology, 1968-circa 1988; Special Assistant to the President, circa 1988-1995, on International Programs.
Digital Collection: Special Collections Oral History Program
Object custodian: Special Collections
Related Collection: Special Collections Oral History Program
Local Identifier: SCOHP_Drake_George_20180724
Text preview (might not show all results): Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections Oral History Program George Drake ATTENTION: © Copyright Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. "Fair use" c
Show moreWestern Washington University Libraries Special Collections Oral History Program George Drake ATTENTION: © Copyright Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. "Fair use" criteria of Section 107 of the Copyright Act of 1976 must be followed. The following materials can be used for educational and other noncommercial purposes without the written permission of Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. These materials are not to be used for resale or commercial purposes without written authorization from Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. All materials cited must be attributed to Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. TB: Today is Tuesday, July 24, 2018, and my name is Tamara Belts. I’m here with George F. Drake, and we’re going to do an oral history about his time at Western. So our first question is: how did you happen to come to Western? GD: Well, I loved the west coast of the United States because I did my community college in Monterey, California, did my bachelor’s and master’s at UC Berkeley, married a girl from the west coast from Carmel, California, and I just always wanted to go back to the west coast. I wanted to be, if not within sight of the water, at least within the smell of saltwater. So I limited my search for a position at the university teaching to the west coast of the United States. I finished my doctorate program at the University of Wisconsin and was now free to go get a job. Actually I was -- at that point I was living in South America and Colombia, doing the last bit of research for my doctoral dissertation, and my resume went out to every school on the west coast. Reagan had just become Governor of California, and he froze all hiring in higher education. Well, that wiped out California. Oregon really didn’t have that much to offer, but my resume went there also. Then I got a telegram from Western Washington State College, and I was wondering where the hell is that? I looked it up and found it was up near the border, but it was near the water, and so I negotiated it a little bit for a little bit more travel money or whatever. But there was no interview. TB: Oh really? GD: They bought my resume and to their chagrin, they found that I came with it. TB: Ah. GD: Because the resume, you know, I’d been in the diplomatic service, I’d worked in various countries. I used to do geodetic surveying in Central America, back as a teenager actually. It was fascinating for people to read this adventurer. I spoke Spanish and Mandarin Chinese, and I had studied Tibetan and French and a few other things. You know, he might be an interesting employee, so they bought my resume. As I say, they later found out that I came with it. 1 Anne Morey Hildebrand Transcript – April 29, 2016 Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED TB: So who hired you? Were you hired by the department or by the college president? GD: I was hired by the chairman of the department, Don Call, who recently passed on. But I think part of his interest in me is that I was also a Korean War veteran. He was very well decorated for his service in the Marine Corps in the Korean conflict. He was an escapee from the Chosin Reservoir defeat, you know, whatever. So, we had that in common also. There was a sense on his part of bringing me in, you know, with a whole package of new ideas, new ways of looking at the discipline of sociology. TB: At the time that you came, it was actually still a combined department: Sociology/Anthropology. GD: Yes. TB: Was that, did you have very much sense of that or? GD: I did, and it was very disquieting because the old bulls in the department of Sociology/Anthropology really took exception to my approach to knowledge and to research. They literally chewed me out about the talking about properties of an organization and doing, you know, statistical analysis of organizations, based on the different aspects of the organization. They shouted, you can’t do that! I said, what do you mean I can’t do that? You know, they didn’t buy into that philosophical approach. In fact, one of the elders of the tribe came out to my house, and he wanted to talk to me privately, so we went out on the lawn. And he literally started crying, that I was threatening everything that he stood for, that I was coming in -- He said, you’re coming in with a Berkeley attitude, and you’re trampling on our tradition. He couldn’t handle this mathematical approach to Sociology/Anthropology. It had to be the old, you go out and live in a village, and you dig up the clam shells, and that kind of thing. TB: So then, very quickly though, the departments did – GD: Separate, yes. TB: And so, okay. Then the next part of the question is, you arrived in 1968 – GD: Actually, my payroll started in 1967. TB: Okay. GD: I came here in December of 1967. TB: Okay. So can you talk about that? The campus had just boomed, in terms of physical growth. Over the course of ten years at least, we’d tripled in student population, and we had a new president coming in: Flora. He was made president officially on March 26, 1968. He’d been interim. So can you talk a little bit about that whole period of time? GD: For me it was a period of conflict because I came in with a different way of looking at things. I did my doctoral work at the University of Wisconsin, which is a [cow] college. In other words, it’s a land grant school where the philosophy of John Dewey is preeminent. Probably one of the most important seminars I ever took was with the John Dewey professor at the University of Wisconsin, and totally 2 Anne Morey Hildebrand Transcript – April 29, 2016 Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED bought into the privatism, knowledge not for coefficient, whatever, for statistical significance but rather for use. It’s not true or false; it’s more or less useful. I was always looking for the use value of knowledge, and I can go back into some of my earlier experiences in that in South America. But that was not the approved approach to knowledge here. I guess I was on campus no more than about eight months, and the students wanted me to talk about student conflict and student riots in South America. And so on the stairs of Old Main at noon one day, I was talking about student radicalism in Colombia, [?Donde esta trabajando?], and a kid yells, enough of the bullshit, let’s go. They occupied the recruiting, you know, the student recruiting offices for Dow Chemical, I think, or some other company. Within an hour, I got a note from Dean Hitchman saying that I had broken the rules, campus rules X, Y, and Z, and that if I were ever to do that again, I would be sanctioned and whatever. I showed it to my departmental chairman, Don Call, who went into a fury, and he said, rip it up, burn it, get rid of it. So I responded to it with a note saying, your message has been received and filed. An hour later, I got a message from Dean Brown, the Academic Vice President, and I thought, oh shit, here I am, not even [nine months] on campus and I’m in deep trouble. I went into Brown’s office. Now you got to remember, Dean Brown was about 6 foot 6, weighed about 200 pounds, and smoked those horrible cigars. So I went in his office, and he had a deep voice, and he said, did you get a message from Dean Hitchman? I said, yes. What did it say? I told him essentially. He said, don’t you ever respond to any communication from that son-of-a-bitch. He’s Dean of Students. He has nothing to do with you. You respond to me and just go ahead, keep on doing what you’re doing. I truly appreciated that (laughter), yes. TB: Did you have any sense, I mean, there were a lot of things happening. Fairhaven College was established, Huxley College was established, we did pass/fail grading, Bond Hall was being built, I mentioned the physical [plant]. Any other comments about that period of time, or those -- I don’t want to tell you how you felt, so. GD: Well, again, being a Dewey pragmatist, knowledge for what, and I taught classes on community organization theory and Latin American social structure, and such. I was always getting my students involved. I mean, if you want to understand community systems analysis, you don’t do it by looking in a fish bowl. You go out in the community. I would have them attend public meetings, hither and yon and whatever. Pretty soon, I personally became involved, and I was the first teaching faculty ever in this university to be elected to the Bellingham City Council. Now Bill McDonald had been on there before me, but he was Dean of Students. He was not a classroom teacher. Before that, he was in physical education. Then Stu Litzsinger in the -- what do you call it? TB: Facilities, I think.1 GD: Yes, Facilities office. He was on the City Council. But I was the first PhD teaching faculty in seventy-some years to be elected to the City Council. Now I make no allusion, I have no allusions that the people voted for me. They voted against the other guy, who was a developer and he tried to do all kinds of dirty things in town, and people just hated his guts, so they voted for me as the least of the horrible of the alternatives. Frankly, I knew when my colleagues on the City Council were angry with me because they would say, Thank you, Doctor Drake. I mean, that was a pejorative term. There were signs on the desk at the entrance of the City Hall: No student interviews given! 1 Then known as Maintenance and Operations. 3 Anne Morey Hildebrand Transcript – April 29, 2016 Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED TB: Okay, so how about, you were also involved in the Year for Action? GB: Yes. Again, that came out of my community involvement. Oh, how do I express this? I was on the board of the Whatcom County Opportunity Council, and this is the organization, I think it was five years old or less at that time, and I was a representative of the university on that board. It was composed of elected officials, professionals in the field of community action, community service, and recipients of the service. Well, the recipients of the service immediately became my friends. I mean, I had a Down syndrome son, I have an African American son, and I’d been working in the slums of Latin America. I used to teach courses on the social problems of Latin America and such. So I was their favorite to be the president of the Council. But Rabbi Gardner, who was then the [Beth Israel Synagogue] Rabbi here in town, was the -- they called him now -- he was the Nominating Committee for the board. He nominated somebody else, Al Grant as a matter of fact, who was the head of Social and Health Services in the county. The Hispanics on the committee put my name forward for president. I said, well, I’ll run for president. Well that shook up Rabbi Gardner. Nobody disagreed with him without paying a price. The board was very nervous about having internal conflict. So the head of Employment Security called a meeting, called a backroom meeting at one of the bars in town, and he said, what will it take to get you to not run for president but accept the vice president position? I said, well, two things. Number one, the incoming president has to come here to this table and agree that he will go up the street and fire the current director of the Opportunity Council, who I deemed to be not only incompetent but grossly unethical and totally unsympathetic to the minorities and the service recipients. Secondly, he has to agree that we have an immediate retreat to find out what are the responsibilities of the board. Well, at that meeting, the Native American objected to the meeting. Oh by the way, the then president felt he could not handle conflict, so he asked if I would chair the meeting. So I chaired the meeting and said, here’s the agenda for the day. The Native American said, no, we want to know what kind of a backroom deal you worked out. You sold out. I mean, you know, he was outraged at me selling out when I was supposed to be their candidate for president. I said, well, here’s the deal, here’s what happened. I explained it, you know, the way it happened. He said, yes, but nothing’s changed. We still don’t have a minority or a person of color on that board or as an officer. I said, yes, you do. And I turned around and I wrote on a big piece of paper, I herewith resign as vice president of the Opportunity Council. But before I sign this, I am naming you the new Nominating chair, and at the end of the day, I want a nominee for the vice president of the Opportunity Council. So the Nooksack Indian, an Hispanic, and a welfare mother went off in the backroom, and the new occupant in the role of vice president was the Indian, the Native American. The people from Seattle who were organizing that retreat called me one week later and said, a new program has been initiated by Nixon called University Year for Action, and it takes students off campus, puts them out in the field, in action. Do you think Western would be interested? I said, hell yes, put us down. I immediately called Ralph Munro, who he was not yet Secretary of State, but he was head of the Office of Voluntary Action, under Dan Evans, and I said, what’s this all about? Ah, hell, he said, I was just back there helping design it. You call Jerry Brady in D.C. Immediately I called Jerry Brady. This is like two hours after finding out the thing even existed. I got to Jerry Brady, and I said, I heard about this program. How many grants are going to be given? He said, eleven. How many have been given? One, in Little Rock, Arkansas. It just happened to be that Bob Ross was the head of that program. 4 Anne Morey Hildebrand Transcript – April 29, 2016 Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED I said, alright, put Western down as number two. He said, where the hell is Western? (Laughter) I asked him, how long will it take for you to respond to the proposal, the request? He said, I’ll take no more time than it takes you to return the forms. I got them back in three days, and he was out here at the end of the week. We got the second grant in the nation. TB: Great, great. So, then you were only on City Council for four years, I think. GD: Yes. TB: But you did have an environmental agenda, I think, you pushed some – GD: Ah, I push everything. I’m the guy who did the research on the bus system. The bus system was owned privately, and it was going bankrupt, and bus drivers submitted a petition for the city to take it over. That was voted down two to one. I came to the hearing. They had done it again, got another petition, and the City Council could vote it in right then or put it to the public. Well, they voted to put it to the public, and I stood up and said, you’re dealing with one set of data, the fiscal data. I said, there’s a social responsibility and a social cause of not having a bus system, and I would like to do some research on that and provide it to you so you have a full array of information of the impact of the system or not having it. Mary Knibbs, who was a teacher at Sehome High School, said, thank you, Doctor Drake. I said, Well, I need some money, $300. She said, oh, I’ll call you. She never called. So I got $300 from Huxley, you know, Huxley College. I did the research, and it was published just days before the election, and it passed two to one. I showed the social cost of not having the bus system. So, I went back to the City Council. This was before I was ever on it, of course. I said, now you have a bus system. If I can be of any further help, please call me. (Laughter) TB: What about -- at Western at least, you’re also very involved in a lot of the international affairs and politics and bringing a lot of different groups. You were the head of the Center for East Asian Studies, I think. You were also a Special Assistant to the President. There was an exchange program with China. Could you talk about some of those? GD: Alright well, we got to go back a little bit. When I finished high school, I bought a bicycle and headed for South America. But even before that, as I grew up, as a little kid, my mother always bought us boys, we had three boys in the family, bought us books for Christmas. As poor as we were, we always got a book. TB: And where did you grow up? GD: New Jersey. Those books almost, always, and I’m talking from the age four or so, dealt with Pierre in France, and Hans in Holland, and Gretchen in Germany, and [Itchikawa] in Japan, and so I grew up with an international orientation early, early, early on. When I finished high school, I bought a bicycle and headed for South America. I didn’t want to be a soda jerk all my life and I had $180, so I struck out. Well I ended up working in Panama and later Guatemala, doing geodetic surveying, climbing mountains 5 Anne Morey Hildebrand Transcript – April 29, 2016 Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED and doing surveying. Literally living with and working with the native peoples, whom I found absolutely wonderful. I mean, I just, I loved it. When I came back to the States, it was the month the Korean War began. I ended up going into the army, and I was sent to army language school to learn Chinese Mandarin. After the military experience, I entered college. Six years after having left high school, I now started college. So I now had been in twenty-seven countries and spoke two languages in addition to English, and I was ready to roll. So after teaching -- well, then I went to UC Berkeley. At UC Berkeley, my BA was in history, but with an emphasis on Chinese system, Chinese social structure, and very importantly for me, the intellectual history of 19th century China, which still is a field that I just love reading it. Joseph Levenson (19201969) being my guru. He was chairman later of my master’s thesis, which dealt with social change in 19th century China. Meanwhile I was also the Chairman of the Center for East Asian Studies here at Western. And because at Berkeley I also studied Tibetan (I was the only student in a class with a professor, just he and I, for one year). (Laughter) TB: Ooh, nice. GD: Now -- yes. I could reflect on that, but . . . Anyway, when the dean named me Chair of East Asian studies, the faculty in there were really angry, because I’d never taught a course in the department. They had no idea of my Oriental interests and background and experience. They knew I’d been in the Korean War, but so what, so had other people. What happened there was we agreed just so it didn’t end up in a major conflict that I would have nothing to do with the academic side of the program, nothing, but just handle the administrative. Alright, but the faculty would have a formal dinner twice a year for the faculty and their wives. The way I characterize it was that the evening, dinner party, they would continue the discussion of the meaning of [Du Fu?] in 13th century Chinese poetry. This is at a time when China is being opened and the new, you know, opportunities in China and whatnot, and they’re still in the, what I call, intellectual masturbation. I mean, just up in the sky, nothing relevant to what’s happening out there in the world. So I asked the faculty if they wouldn’t mind if I would invite a speaker, maybe, that would, you know, come in from outside and give a little lecture on something dealing with China. Oh, sure, that would be fine. I said, how about we open it up and let a few of our people come in and participate? Oh, that’s great. So I invited the newly returned, economics attaché to the US Embassy in Beijing to be a speaker, and invited the business community to come in here and hear a discourse on doing business with China. Well, we had I think it was eighty people come to this dinner. The faculty were outraged, I had really screwed it up. Anyway, what came out of that eventually, in my readings, I was seeing where American kids, travelers, whatever, were in China and the Chinese would grab them to teach English. Well, just because a kid has a bicycle and he’s bumming around China and speaks English doesn’t mean he can teach it. I thought we could do better than that. So I put a little ad, a 4-inch by 4-inch ad, in the Christian Science Monitor, one insertion only, saying, Wanted, young professionals of any age wishing to teach English as a second language to co-professionals in China. Contact Western Washington University. Well, I got 400 responses the first week after that was published. 6 Anne Morey Hildebrand Transcript – April 29, 2016 Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED TB: Wow. GD: And Dennis [Braddock] was then State Legislator, and I said, Dennis, you won’t believe what happened. He said, how much do you need? I said, we could start with a quarter million dollars. You’ll get it. Literally within a month, we had a commitment from the State Legislature, and that really pissed off the school administration. I had not gone through the appropriate budget channels. You know, there’s death by committee. Well, they didn’t have that opportunity. When the faculty came back in the fall, they were -- the East Asian Studies faculty -- they were p.o.’d that this program was dumped on them, imposed on them. It should be out there at the tech school. I mean, it’s getting a job. It has nothing to do with intelligentsia or academia, or whatever. In the course of its existence at Western, over 1,000 graduates of that program were sent to China. Many of them are in China programs hither and yon, and it, you know, it was a success. But it was a clear indication that what I was doing was outside the framework of what was, you know, traditional in the area. TB: Okay. You also had a big involvement with the Japanese. I went through the student newspaper and there were just a lot of different groups that came – GD: I was involved a lot. TB: Right. GD: I went to the Foreign Service Institute. I was in the Diplomatic Service in Colombia, as the Director of the US Cultural Programs in Central Colombia. I knew the structure of government. When I left, actually I had the highest ratings possible as a Foreign Service officer. I left not because of conflict with the Foreign Service but because we had a Down syndrome son, and there was no way you could be in the Foreign Service and bounce around the world with a disabled child. So my wife said, I’ll go home alone and you continue your career in the Foreign Service, or you come with me, and I will help you get your PhD. So we did come back, and I did get the PhD. But even while at Wisconsin, University of Wisconsin, working on the doctorate, I maintained contact with the United States Information Agency. They had a program, international visitors program, and they would select second level professionals or politicians and such and bring them to the United States for a one-month, all-expense paid tour of the United States, with anything they wanted to see, they’d arrange it. So I was their host for the Pacific Northwest corner. I would get for instance a phone call, can you handle the minister of fisheries in Morocco? Hell, yes, send him up. Because we had the waterfront, we had the canning, we had, you know, the fishing fleet and all. It became very successful. Over the years, I hosted over 100 delegations of individuals from I don’t know how many different countries. And many times they were extremely successful. The -- oh, what’s her name? You know, I have to admit I’m 88 years old and I forget names. (Laughter) TB: What did she do? GD: A woman came up from Mexico, [Molly] Garcia. She was the vice president of the PRD, the democratic left-wing party of Mexico. She was to view democracy in America. She arrived here on election week, and so I took her to Barney Goltz, our state senator, also [former] Planning Director here at Western, introduced her to the process of filing for office and showing all the documents and the scrutiny 7 Anne Morey Hildebrand Transcript – April 29, 2016 Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED and such. Then I took her to organizing parties of the Democrats and the Republicans. I had her walking the streets door belling with Kelli Linville (1992?), who was running for the state legislature at that point. On election night, she went with me to the polls, and went with me inside the cubicle. She said, oh, you just voted for a Republican. I said, the Democrat’s an asshole, and I’m not going to vote for that person just because they’re a Democrat. I happen to know the Republican, a solid, person. I have no problem. Oh, we couldn’t do that in Mexico. I said, well, yes, this isn’t Mexico. Man, she followed the box from the Bloedel Donovan polling site in the car to the County Courthouse, watched the box being opened at the Courthouse, and then the judges -- not judges, the, what, visitors from the Republicans and Democrats, you know, is this chad legitamate or can we pull it off or leave it on or whatever. She watched that whole process, then put the cards in the machine. Then she came out front and watched these scores being put up, the results being put up on the board. Then I took her to the after election parties, of the Republicans and the Democrats. When she went back to Mexico City, the PA, the Public Affairs Officer did a debriefing, and she just -- she’d been in the country 30 days, and all she talked about was Bellingham and understanding that process. They sent me a telegram the next day saying, it was just absolutely wonderful. I had high success rates. I’d get calls from the US Information Agency in D.C. saying, oh my god, the Minister of Fisheries of Morocco, all he could talk about was Bellingham. So I was always bringing those people on campus. Now, I’ll relate one sad story about Western. Here I have the Chief of Staff of the Vice President of the European Union. Now he gets between $2,000-$10,000 every time he gives a public speech. He’s my guest for four days. I called campus and asked who teaches the course on the European Union. Well that would be Professor so-and-so. Well, I called his office. Oh yes, oh, no, that’d would be wonderful. I’d love to talk to him. Well, can you give -- can he meet a class of yours and give a talk. Oh, this is what, Thursday? No, we have an exam on Monday, and I haven’t quite finished my lectures, so no, there’s no time for him to meet any of my students. I said, well, maybe the department might want to offer him a luncheon. So I talked to the chair, and the chair would pay his way to a luncheon and invited a few people. I indicated to this person, actually he was a Dane, from the Danish Foreign Service, and I said, you sit next to this professor, whose name I won’t mention because I’m too embarrassed. That person, albeit he was teaching the course on the European Union, spoke no European language. Everything he was getting was translated into English. I was embarrassed. So anyway, they sat next to each other. Afterwards I picked up the visitor and I said, what’d you think? He said, how can that person be a professor? He’s dumb, he’s absolutely, had no understanding of what the hell’s happening. I said, yes, but he happens to be a full professor, and you know, dot, dot, dot. TB: So about what year was that? Was that after you’d left Western? GD: Oh no, no. TB: Okay. GD: I was still there. In fact, that’s when Bob Ross was there, and Bob Ross sent out a request for applications for a Special Assistant to the President for Community Relations and International Relations. He wanted someone to internationalize the campus and also to bring the campus more into the community. This same professor came to my office on a Friday. The applications had to be in by 5:00 on 8 Anne Morey Hildebrand Transcript – April 29, 2016 Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED Friday. He said, I know we’ve had differences, but would you be willing to endorse my application? For what? He said, well didn’t you see that notice? Yes. Well, it would be [1984]. He said, would you endorse my application? I said, hell no. I said, because I’m already committed to applying for that job. But, he said, it’s useless, I have thirty-five departmental chairmen and administrators already endorsing my application. I said, well, that’s alright, I don’t need them. I’ll just put in my resume. I was so outraged that this individual who spoke no European language and no foreign language that I knew about, had no experience in international affairs at all, was applying for this job. So I put in my resume. I’ve lived in several different countries, diplomatic service with awards of excellence, honorary citizen, hither and yon, awarded in Peru as well as in Colombia as well as in Mexico, whatever, and I spoke Chinese Mandarin and Spanish and whatever, and visited twenty-seven countries, you know. Ross named me. (Laughter) I think I lost a friend for life, or an acquaintance for life. No, then Bob Ross and I got along beautifully. TB: Nice. So yes, I was going to say, so how did you get along with Bob Ross? He had a lot of interesting ideas and did a lot of community, really reached out to the community. GD: In many different ways. He and I had our conflicts. One time I thought I was going to be fired because his mistress, I’ll use the word, who was head of the Foundation, received a donation of a big piece of land not too far from me, but the edge of that land went right down to Big Rock Pond. I had about 100-some people, members of the Japanese Garden Society in Bellingham, we were going to build a six-acre Japanese garden there with all of this and whatever. She logged the damn thing, right down to the edge of the lake. The problem was, I had, when I knew about the donation, I said, do preserve that little piece. It’s no more than a 1/4 of an acre, but there’s big trees that provides the background. She logged it right down to the water. I sent her a letter of total disgust. I said, what happened to ethics on the way to the bank. You sold out this community. All your bullshit about community service, community appreciation, and you screwed the community to get ten more bucks in your damn Foundation. I [didn’t] just give that letter just to her, but I [gave] it to everyone I [could] think of. I didn’t send it to Christ because I didn’t have his address, but everybody else got a copy. The shit hit the fan. Everybody was talking, how could I dare to do that to the president’s special friend, so to speak. They had a special meeting of the trustees and etc. Finally, and Dave Syre told them that it was stupid, that in terms of development, probably they should never have logged that. Anyway, Bob Ross called me into his office, and he said, George, (sound of thump on table) I like your performance and your job, but let’s face it, if you can’t get along with Jeannine, you’re out. Now, what’s your response? I said, I can get along beautifully with her, because she’s going to know that if I see some shit like that happen again, I’m going to tell her, because that’s not in the best interest of this university. I’m committed to this university and its relationship to community, she screwed up, and somebody had to tell her. I sure as hell did. And he said, Alright, get back to your office and keep working. So I appreciated Ross for that. TB: Okay. So after Ross, it was Mortimer. How’d you get along with Mortimer? 9 Anne Morey Hildebrand Transcript – April 29, 2016 Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED GD: Well, I think he looked askance at me and wondered what kind of an animal I was. I really [didn’t] fit into his array of academia, his concepts of academia. He moved me out of the Office of the President into International Programs director, which was fine. I started doing some things there that kind of surprised him. For instance, literally, any department can negotiate their own contracts with any university anywhere. No one had any control. No one knew how many contracts we had with other universities around the world. It was mayhem -- I mean, I won’t say mayhem, but it was, if we had a program, a policy of some priorities, then let’s know what the landscape is. I as International Programs director had 21, oh what did they call those, I-12, I-20’s, a form where we could waiver tuition for foreign students. How can you allocate those if you don’t have a policy in a program, and what do we want to achieve with all of our program goals and such? I was putting all that together. They never had any handbook on international at Western and international relations showing that the Geology Department had this contract with the university in Chile. Nobody knew except the folks in that department. So, I kept running into little bits of conflict that people had their own turf already carved out and they didn’t want anybody screwing around with their turf. Well, as a sociologist, I know enough about, you know, about authority and power and influence, and those kinds of things. It was not an easy road. But it was very exciting because with all my international visitors, every year I’d have at least three international visitors of prominence. But then I belonged to the [Moki Yokai?] Society and [Kongo Kai?] Society, you know, the Japanese-Canadian, the Japanese-American societies, and the Chinese Relations Council for Washington State. In other words, get your ass off campus. If you’re going to pretend you know something about international relations, get involved. So, when the Japanese theater group [Kabuki?] came to Seattle, I was informed by the Consulate General of Japan, that the group was here, and might I like to have them up in Bellingham. I did, you know. I offered them, what do you call it, a small town pre-presentation before you go to the big city, whatever. What’s that called there in New York, you know, offstage -- not offstage, but off Broadway. The deal was either there was $4,000 or half at the door. Well, I figured half at the door, half of nothing is nothing and if we got nobody to come. I offered them free room and board for all the time that they were here and hospitality and such. So they came up here. Since I belonged to the [Moki Yokai?] and the [Kongo Kai?] societies, like up in Vancouver they were not going to play in Vancouver. I did heavy advertising up there. We ended up with more people at the Bellingham show than they got in Seattle. I mean, it was one hell of a big hit. When they got to New York City, there was a half-page in the New York Times, a rave review. Well they did their first show right here in Bellingham -- that was the kind of thing that I did, regularly. I mean, in fact with Mortimer, then the Consulate General of Japan was leaving Seattle for assignment elsewhere, and he wanted to have a special dinner in my honor. So he invited Mortimer, and Sam Kelly, and spouses, and my wife and myself to a banquet at the Consulate’s home. Mortimer was, I think, impressed by the extent to which I was honored by the Japanese Consulate. TB: So was there an International Studies Program before you became the head, or were you the first director of it and kind of consolidated some of these relationships around campus? GD: There was an International Relations Program, but it was -- how do I phrase it? It was run by an individual who had a very narrow focus on foreign students and it did not involve anything at the university level and diplomatic level and such. I was bringing in consulates general from various 10 Anne Morey Hildebrand Transcript – April 29, 2016 Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED countries and diplomats and such that I raised it to a different level of interaction, so that ultimately we ended up with where we were dealing with over 200 universities when I left. TB: So what about, I don’t want this to end up being controversial, but like, Dr. Schwarz, he’s been huge in getting our connections with Mongolia and kind of building that out. I mean, the library actually has one of the largest collections of Mongolian materials next to Yale and everybody else. GD: Not even next to, superior to. TB: Okay. So, any – GD: He and I never got along. TB: Okay. GD: He saw me as a threat to his turf. I said, I’m not screwing around with your turf, no way in hell. TB: So you didn’t really have anything to do with what he was doing. GD: He wanted no interference of any sort at all. He wanted me to go disappear, and I was willing to oblige. I had no need to take over somebody else’s turf. Then if he’s private about it, that’s fine. That’s - so yes, we had some very strong interactions, let’s say, because he would come into my office and demand this or that. I’d like say, I’m sorry, get in line. Yours is not the only activity we have going. We have a dozen, they have to be prioritized, and you’re not getting 90% of it. TB: So just overall, tell me some more what do you think are your biggest accomplishments at Western and things that we haven’t talked about. GD: I guess my major -- well, let me put it this way. When I left Western, I sued the school. TB: Oh, I did not know that. GD: (Laughter) No, I threatened to. TB: Okay. So did you retire, or did you not retire? GD: I retired as soon as I could. I tried getting out of here, because it was ending up that I really hated the university. I did not like this university. It was conflict from the word go, because I was a social activist. For me, knowledge was for what? The biology professor could take the students to the seashore, no problem. If I took my students downtown, I had my ass reamed for taking students off campus. They’re to stay on campus. You’re not to be, you know. Every time I turned around, there was a conflict with the chair. I would prepare an analysis of Hispanic needs in Washington State, and I’m using the ditto machines in the office, and I was chewed out roundly because that is not for an academic class -- why the hell [are you] doing that? I said, well, I’m the guy who helped the governor design and put it into operation what is 11 Anne Morey Hildebrand Transcript – April 29, 2016 Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED now the Hispanic Commission -- that’s my creation. I’m being chewed out for using campus resources to help develop something like that at the state level. I remember the Chinese Relations Council. Here’s an opportunity to meet one of the great intellectual leaders of contemporary China, and I’m going to distribute it to the faculty. What the hell are you doing using resources of the Sociology Department to advertise? I was getting it from right, left, and center because I was too much a social activist and it was not accepted. So that, I mean, yes, it reached the point that when I left I essentially told the Dean that I wanted a golden handshake. What? We don’t do that. I said, look, you just paid $120,000 to professor so-and-so because he was caught screwing the little boys. You got another $100,000-and-some for professor so-and-so who was caught screwing little girls. You gave such-and-such a professor over $100,000 because she was so incompetent you were afraid of being sued and threatened of suits of fraud to have her in the classroom. Which do you want me to be? Well, he said, well, we don’t do this. And I said, well, I’ll see you in court on Monday. I’m ready to sue. Why? Because I’ve been screwed over in salary. I was the lowest paid faculty in my rank when I left the university because my colleagues would never put me up for a step extension because I wasn’t teaching in the department. As an administrator, the administrative hierarchy had never taken care of my salary, I said, I want back salary. You know what, I collected it. They, what’s his name, DeLorme, the professor of history, was then Academic Vice President. He goes, John, get in here. John Havland came in, he said, settle with him, and he stormed out of the room. TB: So how long, how many years did you teach actually in the classroom, and how much were you in administration? GD: I’d say a third of my time was classroom and the rest in administration. I really loved the classroom, but I couldn’t stand my colleagues. You know, I want to see you and bring your lecture notes. And I said, excuse me, I don’t have lecture notes. What? What do you do in the classroom? I said, I use a different process. I start with the problem, how are we going to proceed to address this problem? And what is the nature of the problem? Here’s a problem, how do you define it in such a way that you know that you need certain knowledge, and then how do you find that knowledge? I don’t start with the knowledge and give you all the information to a problem that you may never face. I want to teach you the process of learning, the process of defining a situation in such a way that you can then pursue knowledge to address that problem. At the tip, I want to teach you how to learn. That’s the way Ray McInnis came -- because his whole model of knowledge was based on that, the river of knowledge flowing, how do you step into it? How do you get what’s necessary? TB: So why don’t you talk about Ray McInnis, since you have a positive [view of him], the kinds of -It’s always nice to get other people’s thoughts on people, so could you tell us a little more about Ray? GD: I always saw him as a very lonely person, frankly. I saw him as an individual that had brilliant intellect but really didn’t have the following he should have, in my estimation among the faculty. Two men in my faculty, associates, saw him as a functionary and not as the brilliant person who could deal with epistemology, who could deal with the nature of knowledge. That’s what we’re supposed to be dealing with our students and make them aware of the changing nature of knowledge. Oh my god, I 12 Anne Morey Hildebrand Transcript – April 29, 2016 Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED mean, he and I got along beautifully. One of the first class exercises in a course on community organization is, alright, everybody, write down the definition of community. They would write it down. Alright, now form groups of three and agree on a definition of community. Alright, now let’s get do a class, let’s get some definitions from your different groups on the board. I said, look, if we have here like twelve different definitions, if we don’t agree on one, how do we talk to each other? When we’re talking the content, your content for that concept is so different than this person’s, how do we talk? We’re going past each other each way. Now, that deals with all concepts. Then let’s go back to where do concepts come from? (Laughter) Ray loved that. I mean, he was really, you know, into that whole bit. That’s where I had a good relationship with him. TB: Is there anything else we haven’t talked about, that you would like to talk about in terms of your time at Western? Then you can talk about what else you’ve been doing since you left Western. GD: Oh, time at Western. I was always an advocate for the minority students, and I was charged with being a racist that I was giving “A” grades to these Hispanic kids that shouldn’t deserve that kind of a grade. A couple of them went on for their PhDs. Some are not at Western. But there was this prejudice that the Hispanic kids can’t learn, so why do you even think that you can give them a master’s degree? Oh, for Christ’s sakes. Then I found that there were programs for minority students but the information wasn’t given to a certain student population because “they get all the grants.” I found this out when my friends with the Vietnamese students said that they never heard of that program. I confronted the office and said, why not? Well, the Asian students suck up all the grants. Why? Well, they’re more qualified. Yes, but whatever, whatever. I said, you know, this one kid then, he couldn’t even apply for a grant. He’s getting A grades in everything. He’s working a full-time job, sending all his money back to his mother, who’s a prostitute on the streets of Hanoi, and you’re denying him an opportunity because these kids work their ass off better than or more than others and get all the grants? I accused that office of racism. I mean, when I get angry, they know I’ve been in the room. (Laughter) TB: Alright. Well, what about, since you left Western, since you didn’t exactly retire, is that correct? GD: No, I retired. TB: Okay, so you did retire. So what have you been doing in the community since you retired? GD: Oh lord. TB: Well, in brief, I don’t know. What are the highlights? GD: Well, those last years of Western, actually I only taught half time. My wife and I started a nursery to provide employment for brain damaged, mentally retarded, mentally ill young people up in Big Rock, what we called Big Rock Garden Nursery. It worked beautifully. We specialized in Japanese maples, azaleas, rhododendrons. It became known throughout the Northwest as a source for specialized plants for the Japanese garden. Since our house was very small, we love art, we had put more and more outdoors. I found there was no gallery for fine art for the garden in the west coast of North America. So we started one. You know, I didn’t need permission from anybody. We started showing art, fine art, for the garden at Big Rock Nursery in Bellingham. It was in every guidebook to the Pacific Northwest and now has thirty-nine sculptures, and it is gorgeous with the plants in bloom and all. 13 Anne Morey Hildebrand Transcript – April 29, 2016 Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED While that was one aspect of it. Another aspect was that the 50th anniversary of the Korean War came about, that was in 2000. Well, I was a Korean veteran, and I was working with the orphanages in Korea when I was over there. Well actually two orphanages. I knew that the GIs were compassionate in trying to help the orphans. The U.S. Congress gave the Department of Defense -- I’ve got to remember what country I’m in -- nine million dollars to commemorate the Korean War. I wrote for a grant to do research on the relationship of the GIs to the kids during the war. No, we don’t fund that kind of thing, but they’d fund cocktail parties for the generals of course. So at my own expense, I went to the U.S. National Archives, spent six days in Washington, D.C., and went there from the moment they opened, and I was there until they closed, with my computer and scanner, everything I could find on GIs and the kids. Then, knowing when I was in Korea that the Korean Stars and Stripes, every single issue would have an article somewhere about this unit helping these kids with their dental care, another unit finding kids in a cave, and another unit, you know, helping out the orphans. I knew that there was a lot going on, but I had no idea of the extent of it. The Korean War is called the forgotten war, but I maintain you can’t forget what you never knew. My role was to show what happened in terms of GIs and the kids. When I was done with my research -- By the way, the archives of the Stars and Stripes had rarely if ever been used. They were in a total disaster shape. But I went in with my scanner and computer and copied about 2,000 items. TB: Wow. GD: By the time I got done, I was able to document that we, who had fought in the Korean War, saved the lives of over 10,000 children. We’d donated over two million dollars in the ways of between $50$100 a month. We helped build and support over 400 orphanages. We were sustaining over 54,000 kids in orphanages. I mean, it was scale unknown, totally unknown. Well, pretty soon, I put together a website, 1,500 pages, html, and I did by myself. I met somebody who showed me how to do it. For two years, that’s what I did. All of a sudden, I find I’m famous. The Koreans now started finding that website, and I had five one-hour documentaries then by Korean television stations sending production agents, you know, units to Bellingham to film me in the program. The governor of Gyeonggi province, Kim Moon-soo, who was -- Gyeonggi is double the size of Washington state, six times the economy. He invites me to be his personal guest over there. Anyway. I end up being made an honorary citizen in the city of Gwangju, Korea, because I helped them in a unit in that city build the first ever archive and library on Korean War orphans. I gave everything I’d collected back to there. Then, you know, I became very known for -- I built in Bellingham, at Big Rock Park, the Korean War Children’s Memorial Pavilion dedicated to the American servicemen and women who for their service, for their aid to the children of Korea during the war. Then, I donated to Korea, a 21-foot tall sculpture by Sebastián of Mexico, a column of white doves, Los Palomas, indicating peace. That was dedicated and a big ceremony, part of their 60th, not 50th, 60th anniversary of the end of hostilities, dedicated to the 500,000 children who died in the three years of that war. I’m the guy who did the research. And so I became visible, dinner with the president, all that kind of stuff. TB: Dinner with their president or a US? GD: Their president, their president. TB: Okay. 14 Anne Morey Hildebrand Transcript – April 29, 2016 Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED GD: Yes, and that -- I also happened to be the -- There were two major findings, which again made me internationally known. One was the greatest hero, supposed hero of the Korean War, [“Operation Kitty Car”] children, was this Colonel Dean Hess, who had supposedly saved the lives of 1,000 children. Well, he was a fraud. I’m the guy who uncovered it, because I had so much research that I was able to document what had happened. He had nothing to do with it. I was really concerned, you know, you don’t take on a national hero. I mean, you tell the same lie a thousand times and people believe it and all. But there was no way in hell I could ever take him off his pedestal. Until he died, he claimed that he saved the kids. And I was able to prove, beyond a doubt, that he had nothing to do with it. And so, that’s why I had to go to Korea last year to be part of a national symposium on that. What was interesting, and these supposed papers are all published in the program before you go in. The senior historian for the Air Force was there, the senior historian for the Army was there, as well as other intellectuals and authors, writers, researchers, whatever. When the man who was the senior historian from the Army stood up, he said, I read Dr. Drake’s presentation. I’ve changed my mind completely. I totally support him in his findings. (Laughter) Leaving the Air Force historian really pissed. But then I dealt with him. I mean, you know, but that’s, to what extent the way I’m involved internationally. I’m involved with other things in other countries, also. TB: So you were back up at Western today. It’s a different group of people up here, so are you – GD: Well, when I read in the paper that the new Dean of Education was from Chile, I thought, well that’s great, let’s meet. So I invited him to have lunch with me across from The Leopold, where I live now. And I found him to be absolutely delightful. And my experiences in Latin America was with the [Spanish phrase], the people in the margin of society, the disenfranchised, or as the president of Colombia said, the [este amargo?]. That’s, you know, two-thirds of our population has no access to the goods, the collective goods of the nation. They live in such extreme poverty, and they have no chance to participate. We’ve got to change that. Well, I was very much involved with the slums and social programs. And I used to teach in a university in South American. I was made honorary citizen in Manizales, Colombia, for my work with the [hintie amargo?], with the old folks home, with the orphanage, with the social programs, in the barrios. But unfortunately, I happened to be the guy who exposed the way in which the oligarchy through their organizations would infiltrate, go up and destroy popular movements to prevent social change. I mean, it’s a classical example of Marxist sociology and conflict theory. That’s why when I came to Western, I was deemed a Marxist. Many people can’t differentiate that from communism, much less from socialism. I just maintain that the Marxist sociological model is useful, not true or false. It’s more or less useful for understanding social dynamics. So anyway, I’m jumping all over the map here, because I mentioned, uncovering that fraud was one of the big results of my research. The second result of my research in Korea was the extent to which the cultural values of Korea were of such a nature that if a kid had lost his parentage, his book saying who his grandparents and great-grandparents were, he wasn’t a nobody, he was a nothing. The Koreans would get angry if he would die on the curb or on the sidewalk and not have the sensibility to go behind the fence and die. They would step over him because he’s not my lineage, I have no responsibility for that child. The Koreans essentially wondered what the hell were these crazy dumb Americans doing saving those 15 Anne Morey Hildebrand Transcript – April 29, 2016 Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED kids? Literally saying, you’re crazy. If you think we’re going to support them when you leave, no way. We’re opening the gates and then putting them back on the streets where they belong. And I -The outrageous part of it is that attitude was even in the Consulate General’s office in Seattle. I would meet with them, and I asked, why this prejudice towards the orphans? This consulate looks at me with big eyes and a gaped mouth and wondering how the hell a PhD can be so stupid. He says, but you don’t know who their parents are. And I said, oh. A month ago, to the new Consulate General of Korea in Seattle, Mr. Lee, I said, why this prejudice, why this prejudice? He said, you don’t understand our culture. And I said, unfortunately I do. You have shipped out of your country over 200,000 children, blaming them on Americans, which is not true, and I can document that, whatever. I said, you’ve been engaged in ethnic cleansing since year one, and you ought to be ashamed of yourselves as a culture. In the last TV interview with Korean national TV (Arirang TV), which is like the Voice of America, the producer asked, if there’s any one statement you’d want to say to the Korean people, what would it be? I said, I’m among those who fought in Korea to help save democracy. I come to Korea and see this marvelous explosion in technology and high-rise buildings and highways, but your social attitudes are still in the cave. It’s abdominable that you still have these attitudes, and you are engaging in ethnic cleansing. I call it [out] to you, that’s what you’re engaging in. You’re throwing out kids who have suspect lineage, while most of them have two Korean parents. Stop blaming them on all the GIs. That, Arirang TV kept that in the final film shown in over 200 countries. I got emails and calls on that. So, I’ve been active. I was active globally. But I’ve been active in many, many countries, like I’m responsible for cultural activities probably in 20 different countries, independently of Western. TB: Okay, is there anything else you want to tell us or? GD: I want it on the record, I’m not anti-intellectual. Some of my friends say, not friends, acquaintances on campus, you’re not a scholar. You’re out there gardening, you know, in the public. You’re just doing things. Totally false, totally false. I mean, I deal with the whole idea of paradigm and the whole idea of concept formation, the whole idea of cultural shift, analysis of social systems. All of my social action activities are based on paradigms, sociological paradigms, you know. I work at that level. I act at that level of action. But that does not deny my involvement and commitment to the intellectual processes on which these actions are based. So. TB: It’s on the record. GD: (Laughter) TB: Okay. Well I thank you very much. It was really nice to see you again, or meet you again, and I thank you very much for participating in our program. Appendix GD: Well, one of the first committees I was appointed to on arrival here at Western was to the committee for the planning the inauguration of Jerry Flora as president. Well, I’m one of these guys who’s been through this process, not necessarily as president, but in other cultures in other countries. And I won’t elaborate on that. But anyway, I said, why do we walk around with a Mason scepter. This is not 16 Anne Morey Hildebrand Transcript – April 29, 2016 Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED England, 15th century England. This is northwestern United States. Let’s have a Native American ceremony, raising a man to status in his tribe or in his community. I had a colleague, Wally Heath, who was a professor here in Biology, I think it was in the Biology Department. He was a radical. I mean, he was wild. He’s the kind of guy whose concepts not only went beyond boundaries, they knocked on new creative -- he’s the guy who started the Lummi agriculture program and all. Anyway, he and I got along beautifully. He really supported that concept, but he was working with the Lummi Indians at that time. Begrudgingly they said that there could be a program, why don’t we work it in. I’m confronted in the hall by a full bull professor of anthropology, and he said to me, Drake, we’ve never had trouble with our Indians before. Don’t start them now (sound of thump on table). I said, who gave them to you? What the hell do you mean? I went through the list, who’s being invited? The mayor and City Council of Sumas, Nooksack, Everson, Blaine, you know, all the way down. I said, how about the Lummi and the Nooksack tribes? We’ve never invited them. And I said, well, don’t you think, god damnit, it’s about time? That’s when I got this comment from the Anthropology Department. Then when I wanted to do the blanketing ceremony and whatever and such, there was so much negative air in the Department of Anthropology, which should have, I thought, endorsed this. I said, alright, and I want $500. What for? I said, for Christ’s sake, you’re paying a thousand dollars for that professor to come up from Stanford and say some pretty words, you’re paying a thousand dollars for that professor from Berkeley. You god damn well can pay the Native Americans $500 for a ceremony. Okay. I said, I don’t want this invoices in twelve parts and all that. I want $500 in $5 bills available at the night of the function. What’s all of that for? I said, these people are coming from seven different tribes, and they’re going to go back, they’re not going to fill out your damn forms. You want a form filled out, I’ll fill out a form, invoice. But I want the money up front. Well, we’ll see if we can do that. I said, you damn well better do it. It worked. So now it’s in the history book, but Flora was pissed at first. I mean, you know, now it’s as though everybody wanted it, and it was beautiful, you know. The myth is out there printed now, Western was so compassionate for their Native friends and neighbors. One more example. One of the tribal leaders, actually the shaman, invited people from this side of the river to come and share in a ceremony and have a salmon dinner, break bread with the Indians kind of a thing. And we will share some knowledge that’s never before been shared with the westerner. So Mary Ann and I went, and here’s people from the Anthropology Department, and very few white men crossed the river and went to the ceremony. I mean, it was appalling. This big space, and they prepared this big salmon feast, and what, there were twenty of us or maybe thirty at most. So the shaman, you know, gives his greeting [native language phrase] and such, and welcome, and gave this -Have you been to a ceremony? TB: No. GD: Alright. They’re very elaborate, formal welcoming ceremony. When he was done he said, alright, now we invite you to respond. Nobody did a damn thing. I mean, here’s the Anthropology faculty there. They should have known the culture and responded in a culturally appropriate manner. They did not. Finally, the shaman says, well, we’ll continue. I was so embarrassed. I was appalled at this. 17 Anne Morey Hildebrand Transcript – April 29, 2016 Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED Later when I became involved with tribes in the Amazon, but that’s another whole story. When the shaman there, the cacique of the tribe, would welcome me, and my colleagues to the tribe, putting on this incredible dance and all. Now, we invite you to speak. I got up and spoke. You damn well better believe I did. I mean, you’ve got to respond in a culturally appropriate manner. I was just -We had a PhD Native American come on campus as a visiting faculty, I think for Fairhaven College. But he gave an all-campus speech or a talk. At the beginning he said, anybody here from the Anthropology Department? And I sort of put up my hand. He said, well, are you or aren’t you? I said, well, it’s a joint department. I’m in the sociology half. He said, where is the anthropologists? I said, they only study dead Indians, (sound effect) that remark went back to the department before I did. TB: (Laughter) GD: They wanted my scalp. I said, the proof is in the behavior. Where the hell were you? I said, you can’t get any knowledge from a contemporary Indian, who has been facing all the problems and prejudice? I can go down the list of what we’ve done to the Native peoples. You weren’t there. You should have been an advocate. Oh no, we don’t get involved in social issues. Oh -- totally antithetical to my own sense of the appropriateness of knowledge. TB: And you know, Western starts most programs now acknowledging that we’re on the Native land. GD: Yes. TB: So, things have changed. We’re being more sensitive. GD: Ah, why did it take so long? That’s 50 years. TB: But at least it’s happening now. I think it begun with Sabah, he is the first president to really acknowledge that, regularly. GD: Yes. TB: So, I mean, I agree it’s sad it took so long, but it’s finally being done. GD: Yes. TB: Yes. Anything else? End of Recording 18 Anne Morey Hildebrand Transcript – April 29, 2016 Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED
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Title: Sarah Clark-Langager interview--July 2016
Date: 2016-07
Description: Sarah Clark-Langager, director of the Western Gallery at Western Washington University, 1988-2014.
Digital Collection: Special Collections Oral History Program
Type of resource: text
Object custodian: Special Collections
Related Collection: Special Collections Oral History Program
Local Identifier: SCOHP_Clark-Langager_Sarah_2016
Text preview (might not show all results): Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections Oral History Program Sarah Clark-Langager ATTENTION: © Copyright Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. "Fair use
Show moreWestern Washington University Libraries Special Collections Oral History Program Sarah Clark-Langager ATTENTION: © Copyright Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. "Fair use" criteria of Section 107 of the Copyright Act of 1976 must be followed. The following materials can be used for educational and other noncommercial purposes without the written permission of Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. These materials are not to be used for resale or commercial purposes without written authorization from Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. All materials cited must be attributed to Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. This interview was conducted in two parts. The first on July 19, 2016 is with Sarah Clark-Langager and takes place at her home in Lynden, Washington. The interviewers are Barbara Miller, Professor of Art, and Hafthor Yngvason, Director of the Western Gallery. The second interview takes place in the Fine Arts building on the Western Washington University campus. The interviewers are Tamara Belts, Special Collections Manager, Western Libraries Heritage Resources, Barbara Miller, Hafthor Yngvason and Sharron Antholt, Professor Emerita of Art. SCL: I was teaching at North Texas University, outside of Dallas, and Craig and I decided that we wanted to get back to the Northwest. I was seriously thinking about leaving fairly soon, and I got a telephone call from Gene Vike who was the chair of the Art Department at that time. He asked me if I was interested in applying for a job at Western -- that they had built a new gallery, and that the job would involve not only running the gallery but obviously taking part in helping with the Outdoor Sculpture Collection. I already knew about the Outdoor Sculpture Collection. When I was in Seattle at the Seattle Art Museum (SAM), I think the last time that I actually visited the sculpture collection was when the Contemporary Art Council actually had a symposium at Western. The Contemporary Art Council, of which Virginia Wright was a large part, was very much interested in the sculpture collection, and I distinctly remember looking at the di Suvero and being just absolutely awed by it. Finally, I began to remember some of the pieces that I had seen at that symposium. So I called Gene Vike back the next day and said, because of the Outdoor Sculpture Collection and because it is a new gallery, I’m very much interested in applying. So I applied. It’s interesting that Larry Hanson, who was Sebastian’s counterpart, was the person who represented the Art Department on the Art Acquisition Committee. And as you know at that time, the Art Acquisition Committee was really made up of a Dean, Richard Francis (professor in the English Department), Larry Hanson, and a couple of other people. So I came in 1988. I came for an interview, they offered me the job, and Larry Hanson was still in the sculpture department. BM: Was he curator to it? 1 Sarah Clark-Langager Edited Transcript – July 2016 – Two Sessions Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED SCL: Yes, he was the curator of the Outdoor Sculpture Collection. That’s what they called him on the Art Acquisition Committee. BM: And so was there like a Western Gallery? Wasn’t it – SCL: The Western Gallery was in the [Fine Arts] building and it was up on the second floor. It occupied the space that now is the lecture room and the slide library, that’s where the Western Gallery was. BM: Oh, so 238 plus the slide library. Oh, okay. SCL: That’s where the Western Gallery originally was. Then downstairs where the gallery is, I would say part of the storage area of the gallery was part of the [Fine Arts] building, and that’s where, what they called Industrial Arts was. Industrial Arts went over to the [Ross Engineering Technology] Building (ET) when that was built. So the new part of the gallery was actually a little bit of the storage area and then the new exhibition space. So the Art Department when they realized that finally Industrial Arts was going to be in this new building, they definitely put on a campaign to get a new gallery space to add to the Fine Arts building. That was in 1988, and the gallery was just being finished when I got there. I mean, they were still doing construction. I came in the fall, and we did not have the first exhibition until January of 1989. But getting back to Larry Hanson, what’s interesting about him was that he was part of the Seattle-King County Arts Commission’s Earthworks Symposium (1979). So he had a connection to people like Nancy Holt and Robert Morris, because he essentially met up with them again at the Earthworks Symposium. Both Morris and Holt had already done their works at Western in the 1970s. HY: Was that in 1987? SCL: In 1987 was the earthworks symposium. [WWU’s Site Specific Symposium, organized by Larry Hanson, with artists: Aycock, Trakas and McCafferty]. SCL: Anyway, the Seattle Earthworks Symposium decided that there had to be at least one representative from the Northwest and Larry Hanson was chosen to be the representative. So that put him in the spotlight in the Earthworks Symposium, and certainly put a spotlight again on the sculpture that was at Western. So when I came in 1988, Larry was there to assist me to, you know, about the sculpture collection, etc., but he bowed out and let me take on the responsibility. But he was always a very good colleague, very much so. Anyway, so when I arrived, I knew that I was responsible for exhibitions in the gallery, and I was responsible for the Outdoor Sculpture Collection, but there was no history whatsoever written about what exhibitions had actually occurred in the gallery. There was nothing on the portable collections. The only information on the Outdoor Sculpture Collection was in the Art Acquisition Committee minutes that Richard Francis, thank god, had kept very diligent notes on. So I put the interns to work, and I made them read all the newspapers, anything in the library that told about what had been happening at the university. They gradually made a long list of all the exhibitions they could find that had occurred since the 1930s. So I then had a sense of what, you know, the gallery had done and what the gallery had not done. 2 Sarah Clark-Langager Edited Transcript – July 2016 – Two Sessions Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED BM: So Western Gallery started in the 1930s? SCL: I would say [1938], something like that. BM: I had no idea it had that history. SCL: It was first called the Studio Gallery. There’s a brochure on Helen Loggie that the Western Gallery did, and the introduction tells basically the history of the gallery. Anyway, Helen Loggie, the famous Bellingham printmaker, was extremely helpful in helping with the gallery in terms of exhibitions. So there is a file, Hafthor, somewhere in your office that says “history gallery,” and there should be a long list there of all of the exhibitions that ever occurred. HY: I found it. SCL: Yes. So that gave me a sense of what I didn’t want to repeat and what I wanted to do. Then in terms of the collection, the storage area was jam packed with student work that was leftover from exhibitions, and nobody knew what to do with it (or leftover in the halls), and they all said, just put it in the Western Gallery. So what I did was I went to the archives and I went to the Art Department boxes, and I went through every scrap of paper I could find, trying to find a sales slip or something that would give me a clue really as to what was a part of the collection or where it had come from. So I gradually began to weed out the student art that was leftover and what really was supposedly part of our collection. Then I gradually realized that nobody knew what I was supposed to do. Coming from a museum background, I realized that they didn’t realize that there were such things as Art Acquisition Committees, and that when a gift was given to the gallery that you had to go through certain procedures, etc. Then also, I figured out that all the different colleges on campus were just willy-nilly accepting things, and they had no idea that there was supposed to be a university database, so that if somebody called me up and said, Where’s the Rembrandt? And I said, Duh... BM: Wish we had that. SCL: I would have to say, gee, I didn’t realize we had a Rembrandt. Where’s the Rembrandt? (Laughter) Anyway, so I began to put together procedures of how things should really work, and then I began to literally indoctrinate everybody. I would work with the Dean and say, this is how we are supposed to be operating. I would go to the Foundation and I would say, no, you can’t just accept the flower painting. It has got to go through the committee, etc. Then I began working with the campus -the mapping out of the new campus. I sat on that particular master plan committee [Master Plan Advisory Group], and I learned very quickly that I had to literally defend the sculpture collection. I remember standing up one day and saying, these are not tinker toys. They cannot be moved around campus just to any other place. I think they were talking about moving the di Suvero, and I just, ah, fell over backwards. So I became very much a part of the [Master Plan Advisory Group]. And as I said, my job really was to defend the sculpture collection. I think I told you the last time we met, that they really wanted me in the last mapping out of the master plan -- they wanted me to put into the master plan sites for sculpture. In other words, go ahead and designate that this spot over here and this spot over here were going to... And I refused to do that. I just said, no, that’s not how we’re going to operate in terms of artists coming to campus and choosing sites. 3 Sarah Clark-Langager Edited Transcript – July 2016 – Two Sessions Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED I would say that it was a huge learning curve. It wasn’t a learning curve in terms of what to do with the sculpture or how to do exhibitions, but it was a learning curve in terms of how to deal with all these people on campus who didn’t know anything about how a university gallery should operate or how artists worked within the campus. BM: So it was more of an educational curve -- kind of get people to understand what the sculpture collection was -- what it could be, how it interacted with the rest of the university. SCL: Right; and it was critical for the master plan committee to gradually understand that it wasn’t just that they were planning where buildings were going, they had to literally think about the landscaping elements, buildings, and sculpture collection, you know, the bigger picture. BM: So what was your first show? SCL: It was Milton Avery [which] had already been selected by Robert Sylvester who was the Dean under whom I came. He had chosen the show, Milton Avery: Progressive Images (January 9 – February 17, 1989) which was a very good show done by the Boise Art Museum. BM: So it came all the way over. SCL: Yes. BM: Well that’s good. So, you came here, there was nothing in place – SCL: Nothing in place. BM: -- no documentation about anything. You had to basically start from square one. SCL: Right. There were no files on any of the art objects. Gradually I began to build up files for the sculpture collection. As I say, I went through all the Art Acquisition Committee minutes and Xeroxed anything I could find – nobody had a routine, or had any idea that certain things had to be done. So that’s when I got Patricia Leavengood [Art Conservation Service] a conservator in Seattle to come up, and we established this routine of what had to be done absolutely every year. But still with the charges on the maintenance, there still was not enough money really to do absolutely everything. So I went to the provost that first year when finally we had this routine. I went to the provost, and he said that he would give -- actually it was DeLorme, the editor of this book, Perspectives on Excellence -- he would give $10,000 towards bringing the collection back up, you know, doing what we were supposed to be doing in terms of routine and any special work, which really helped tremendously. I think that was probably the first time that any recognition was given to the sculpture collection, in terms that it had needed maintenance, continual maintenance. But there always was a problem and finally -- I think this was in the 1990s sometime, whenever President Karen Morse first got here [1993], that was the first time that they put into the university budget that there was going to be some funding for maintenance of the Outdoor Sculpture Collection. The Board of Trustees said that it should be in the university budget. BM: And did it always stay at $10,000, or did it eventually get – 4 Sarah Clark-Langager Edited Transcript – July 2016 – Two Sessions Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED SCL: No, it stayed at $10,000, and then Dean Dan Guyette and the Vice President for Business and Financial Affairs, Rich van den Hul, said that they would chip in a certain amount of money. But the problem has always been that of course over time, everything is aging, so you spend, you know, practically the entire budget on conservation of one particular piece. BM: Right. So when they chipped in, did it substantively go up, or was it just an ad hoc? SCL: Yes. Each one of them chipped in $15,000, so it went up to $30,000. HY: [And it just stayed there]. Tell us more about the gallery -- your vision, direction, and what kind of exhibitions you did? SCL: Well once I figured out what exhibitions had occurred and what the collection supposedly was, I decided that really what we needed to do was to focus more on our national and international exhibition schedule, that I really did not want to -- I didn’t want to have student shows, I didn’t want to concentrate on faculty shows. I really wanted to bring in work that the students were not able to see in Bellingham. I tried not to overlap with anything that was going on in Seattle or in Vancouver because I figured the students could at least get to those particular places, if they would go. So I just began talking to people across the United States. You know a curator in one particular museum, and you just call and say, what exhibitions are you planning? And then I worked a lot with Independent Curators Incorporated, and just gradually brought in exhibitions from the national and international scene. And of course always, you know, the budget was, well, I can’t spend more than $5,000 (laughter) on an exhibition, and of course these types of exhibitions the rental fees are out of sight. BM: And the shipping fees are expensive too. SCL: Yes. So that’s when I really began to talk about how there should be some sort of endowment for exhibitions at the gallery. And Miriam Mathes was the -- well, who was she? She was the Children’s Librarian at Wilson Library and she of course had retired numerous years ago (1971), and she came back for a visit. The Foundation asked me if I would give her a tour of the Western Gallery, whatever the exhibition was. I didn’t know her from Adam, and she came, and I forget what the show was. I think it was the African-American show from the Smithsonian.1 I think that’s what it was. Anyway, I gave her a tour, and very soon after that she gave money to the gallery for an endowment, just out of the blue. HY: That is wonderful. SCL: So that is what gave us more money, other than the measly budget we were getting from the college to do exhibitions. BM: And is that endowment still there? SCL: Yes. 1 African-American artists, 1880-1987: selections from the Evans-Tibbs Collection, exhibited at the Western Gallery, September 28-November 1992]. 5 Sarah Clark-Langager Edited Transcript – July 2016 – Two Sessions Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED BM: What’s the endowment called? SCL: It’s named after her husband [Homer Mathes], but it’s the Mathes Endowment. HY: So, most of the exhibitions were traveling exhibitions with national or international artists. SC: Right. HY: Did you set some direction beyond that, what kind of – SCL: Not really. I tried to keep a healthy mix. I wanted sculpture, I wanted painting, I wanted works on paper. So I tried to vary the media. Also I was very concerned that it would be a gallery space where other students, students other than art students, would come to the gallery. So I spent a lot of time going to Deans’ meetings where they gave me five minutes to say what we were doing at the gallery and how it could possibly relate to subjects other than art. I began to have Wednesday Gallery Tours where I would invite faculty from other colleges to come in and talk about the art. They always said, well, I don’t know anything about art. And I would say, but you have a particular perspective that is important to understand the art that’s in the gallery, and I’ll be right there with you to, you know, talk with you, etc. They really enjoyed doing it. Those were very popular for a while. Then I would always send out notices. If it was an exhibition that dealt with environmental things, I would always send notices out to the pertinent Dean or the pertinent college about this exhibition, and certainly to faculty that I knew that this would be an exhibition they would want to bring their students to. I constantly gave tours because I believe very strongly that the gallery definitely should be oriented to the entire faculty and students, rather than just to the Art Department. Then of course the Washington Art Consortium was very important, because Western was a founding member of the consortium, and I knew about the collections. I had been at the Seattle Art Museum when the first one was formed. So I knew about the importance of the collections, and I intentionally after showing one of the consortium collections, it must have been the American Works on Paper one, I intentionally lobbied to keep the collection at Western. And gradually tried -- I didn’t really have to persuade that many people, but just made a good argument that it would be good to have them in one place and that we had the possibility of getting proper racks, etc., for storage for them. Because for instance the American Works on Paper were in these hideous orange crates for just years on end. You can just imagine what was inside those large old crates. We finally made the argument and the consortium accepted the fact that they would pay for racks in storage. But I always felt and it’s true that Western is sort of the low man on the totem pole in terms of the consortium. Because here is the large Seattle Art Museum, and the Tacoma Art Museum, and the Henry Gallery etc., and here we were, you know, two people on staff compared to these mega places. The consortium really gave us prestige. People would find out about the consortium collections, and they would begin to associate it with Western. BM: So how did the consortium collection, how did that all form? I mean, how did we get the works? Where were the works from? SCL: Virginia Wright went to the NEA with a grant idea of getting institutions to come together so that there could be this portable collection that went around the state. The NEA gave her the grant with the 6 Sarah Clark-Langager Edited Transcript – July 2016 – Two Sessions Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED condition that she would match it, so that is how the Works on Paper Collection came together. She asked Richard Bellamy, who was an art dealer at the time to be an advisor. She probably had other advisors too. Then there was a representative from each of the institutions coming together to form the consortium and they are the ones who selected the works. BM: And so through Richard Bellamy, he was a New York art dealer who had a lot to do with pop art. SCL: He was an advisor, so he and [Jinny] would select the work or select let’s say, a couple of examples by Richard Serra and say, you know, we think this is the best one. Then they would bring those examples to the committee of consortium members and have a discussion, and then they would decide which Richard Serra to buy. BM: Oh wow. So that all came about because of the NEA grant – SC: Right. BM: -- and Wright matching the funds to buy this portable art collection that is now prints, photography, and some paintings? HY: It’s prints and drawings, right? SCL: Yes, prints and drawings. BM: Prints, drawings, and photography? SCL: Photography? HY: No, photography came as a separate collection, right? SCL: Which one? HY: The Photography Collection came separate. SCL: Yes, that was -- so the first one was American Works on Paper. Once they formed it, it went on a tour under the American Federation of Arts. It went all over. Then it came back and was housed at WSU. When I got to Western, I knew it was at WSU, so I, you know, had an exhibition and told WSU I’d be more than happy to keep it. (Laughter) Then the Photography Collection a couple of years later, again in the what, late 1970s, early 1980s, was formed, and that was formed essentially in the same way. BM: With Wright – SCL: With a grant and with Virginia Wright matching. BM: Oh wow. HY: And who selected that? 7 Sarah Clark-Langager Edited Transcript – July 2016 – Two Sessions Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED SCL: The curator at the Whatcom Museum and a curator from the Portland Art Museum selected the work. Rod Slemmons was at the Whatcom Museum and went on to become the curator of photography at the Seattle Art Museum, and then he went off to Chicago. BM: And that was in what year? SCL: I’d have to go look. But I’m going to say late 1970s, early 1980s. BM: Before you came. SCL: Yes. BM: Okay. SCL: And then it was not until the 1990s that the Aiken Collection, which was a private collection was offered to the consortium and we accepted that collection. Then, of course in 2010 or whenever it was, 2009, 2010, that’s when Safeco Corporation decided that they were going to essentially deaccession or get rid of their collection. The curator of the Safeco Collection was of course extremely disturbed about that, so she called and said, what about the idea of giving the Safeco Collection to the consortium, meaning that the collection could stay together but it could be dispersed among the seven institutions. We essentially said, it’s a great idea, but we only collect works on paper. So there was a committee formed. I was on that committee and the director at the time at the Seattle Art Museum was on that committee, and Chris Bruce [WSU], so we formed a Safeco Works on Paper Collection. Then we said, what about the idea of -- if you still have work in the collection -paintings and sculptures and glasswork, etc., what if we accepted that collection but it would be dispersed among the seven institutions, so that’s what we did. So that’s the work that you -- the greatest part of the work is the work that you see in the PAC galleries. BM: And so was there a budget associated with Western maintaining that, or did you do it out of your own pocket? SCL: I was on the committee with the director of the Tacoma Art Museum, and we said to Safeco, we will accept the work IF you give us monies to disperse the collection to the seven institutions and IF you will give us monies to help conserve the work that we, the institutions, are taking. Safeco said that they would. HY: That is very smart; tell me about the collections in the Western Gallery? What was your direction in building it? SCL: Well, primarily when I got there, it was just prints and drawings. I said, well that seems to me what is already in the collection, and so we probably should take that approach plus there was, you know, there was no place to really store them. So I thought prints and drawings are going to be the easiest to store. I had to think about storage. There certainly were some paintings already in the collection, but I tried to be very practical. Then I had to be in charge also, or I put myself in charge of the other works that 8 Sarah Clark-Langager Edited Transcript – July 2016 – Two Sessions Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED were coming to the other colleges [on campus], because people didn’t know what to do. So I, I’m going to whisper this, I essentially named myself as the – BM: Do you want me to push pause? (Laughter) HY: No, let’s hear this. SCL: -- curator of the University Collections, because nobody else was going to do it. I mean, they didn’t even know that they should be doing it. I just assumed this role. I kid you not. I assumed this role! BM: I believe it! I believe it! SCL: And I said to the different colleges, if you want this particular work that Mrs. Jones is giving you, you are going to have to be responsible for it. It is not going to come back to the Western Gallery. So, you know, again you had to educate them. That is why the University Collections are very diverse. But the Western Gallery, its unique collections, really were prints and drawings, -- there was already some sculpture in the collection, and of course later the Leese Collection. Vera Leese. She had this wonderful collection and she invited me to come see her, and I used to go see her at least once a week. She and her husband Al were delightful, could talk on any art subject known to man. Over the years, I just built up this wonderful relationship with them. Her daughter, Marian, called me one day and said that her mother had died and that she had decided -- and her mother had given her the art collection, but she decided that it really should come to the Western Gallery. BM: Oh wow. SCL: So it was the Leese Collection that allowed us to expand beyond just prints and drawings and it was important, again, to keep that Leese Collection all together. HY: And then the Safeco, more paintings were added. SCL: Right. Now Safeco, this is – BM: What year was the Safeco? SCL: Safeco was like 2010. BM: Oh, very recent. SCL: The consortium decided that now that they had formed their own Safeco Works on Paper Collection that what we needed to do with the other Safeco Collections was to have sort of like an NFL draw. There was a long list and images of everything in the Safeco Collection, and we all studied the list, and then we put all our names into a hat, it was a computer drawing, and it came out that the Seattle Art Museum had the first draw and the Western Gallery had the last draw. (Laughter) HY: But it flowed in a circle -9 Sarah Clark-Langager Edited Transcript – July 2016 – Two Sessions Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED SCL: And so we would go in a circle. I made a list of my priorities, of what I really wanted for my first go-around. It was all done over the telephone. So you could hear people sighing, or you could hear people whispering, like, what should I choose now? My heart was just going like this. Anyway, we got everything we wanted, with the exception of one work. BM: What was that? SCL: That was a Roger Shimomura painting that WSU got. [But otherwise] we got every single one. HY: How did you select those paintings? SCL: Well, I knew a lot -- well, having been in the Northwest, I knew a lot of the artists, and so I knew which were the most important artists, there are a lot of artists you have never heard of. But for example, with the Seattle Art Museum, they already had three or four Alden Masons, so they didn’t necessarily want an Alden Mason, which gave us a chance to get the Alden Mason, or whatever artist. Knowing my Northwest art history, I could really pinpoint what I thought were the ones to accept. But before we had this NFL draw, I went to the Dean, Dan Guyette, and said, If you want Western to come out on top here, you’ve got to do something, because there is no place to store these big works. That’s when he and I decided that okay what we would do would be to take the foyers over in the PAC and make them into galleries. That was the big plan, so with that plan in mind, of course no money whatsoever, Dan told me to go ahead and I could go choose whatever I wanted to in this NFL draw. So I just went to town (laughter), choosing what I thought would be good and not worrying about whether it was the biggest thing or smallest or where I was going to store it or anything like that. We came out very well. Plus as I said then, there was a formula set up that depending upon how many works you got, there was a certain amount of money that would follow those works. So there is in our Foundation account, there is the Safeco Conservation Fund. BM: And they’re still on the hook for that money now, for the conservation? SCL: No. We already have that money -- that money’s already in the Foundation. BM: Oh, I see. SCL: Yes. That’s when the Foundation went to, me not knowing it, that’s when they went to Virginia Wright, and said, Would you give monies to renovate these galleries? Because they knew that she was very much oriented towards the consortium and what the consortium had been doing and knew about the Safeco gift, etc. We already had these wonderful Alexander Calder tapestries in one of the PAC foyers, and she was very much interested in that story of, you know, again, a fluke that we got them. So she gave the monies to renovate the galleries and to frame the tapestries, so that’s how we could put up the works. BM: I’ve never seen those tapestries. SCL: The Calder tapestries? HY: Go and see them. BM: Yes. 10 Sarah Clark-Langager Edited Transcript – July 2016 – Two Sessions Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED HY: They are worth it, yes. BM: Where are they? In the – SCL: They are in one of the lobbies of the PAC. If you go in the PAC and turn to the right, and walk far right, past the Zervas video, you go in one gallery and then there is another gallery over to the left. That’s probably the one that people use as an exit when they come out of the performance hall. BM: I’ll have to look, I’ve never seen them. SCL: Those came by a fluke. Susan Sollins2 called me one day and we had a nice chat. She said, you know, there’s this donor that I know and he has these Alexander Calder tapestries that he would like to give to an institution, and I just keep thinking about the sculpture collection at Western. Would you be interested in these tapestries? I said, why of course, Susan! I had no idea who this donor was, absolutely no clue whatsoever. So she went back [to the donor] and she honestly said, this is the place where they should be. HY: Tell me more about creating the portable collection. After getting the Leese collection did you start deliberately collecting more paintings? Or did you stay with Works on Paper? SCL: I would say that I probably still thought that the Works on Paper Collection the most important, because the paintings were a little bit of European here, one or two 19th century there. It was just spread out, it was way too random. I felt that there was a better chance of filling in the Works on Paper Collection and really making it a solid collection, rather than trying to just have, you know, have a little bit of everything. HY: So the Works on Paper -- the paintings are, right, that they are more Northwestern? SCL: Yes, yes. HY: But the Paper Collection is – SCL: American, Asian works, European... BM: It’s a real mix, yes. I’ve been through all the paper collection, Works on Paper. I haven’t been through the sculpture collection or -- But we went through the whole paper collection that one time – SC: For a show. BM: Yes, everything we went through. (Laughter) SCL: Yes. 2 Susan Sollins was the director of Independent Curators Incorporated with whom I had dealt with a lot with the exhibitions. She had on numerous occasions asked me to write letters when they were applying for grants to the NEA, and I would write letters saying how wonderful Independent Curators Incorporated was. 11 Sarah Clark-Langager Edited Transcript – July 2016 – Two Sessions Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED BM: So I’m pretty familiar with the paper. Tell us about the Chair Collection, how did that come about? SCL: That’s another one of those interesting stories. I had no clue that the university had a Chair Collection, no clue whatsoever. I finally met Dorothy Ramsland, who was the person who was in charge of the Home Economics Department before they merged that department into the Design and Industrial Design. So I met her and she told me that there was a Chair Collection. I said, Now, Dorothy, where is it? She said that she had a small budget, and every year -- she particularly liked going to Scandinavian countries. So every year she would take this small budget and go to Europe and buy. It could be glasswork, a chair, things that students needed to see as interior decorators; what they needed to see and know about design. She decided that she was going to focus on chairs. I forgot who was the provost at the time [DeLorme] but the administration decided that they were going to merge the Home Economics Department into the Design and Industrial Design Departments3. One day I hear via rumor that they are getting rid of the Chair Collection. So I called up Dorothy Ramsland and I said, Where is the Chair Collection? She said, It is in the attic of Old Main. (Laughter) I found out how to get to the attic of Old Main, and I kid you – BM: That’s a feat. SCL: I kid you not, the room probably was no bigger than this porch, and it was jammed with all these chairs. Mary McIntyre was the Assistant Vice Provost, and she was from the Art Department. I went to Mary McIntyre [Gorrell] and I said, I’ve heard via a rumor that you are going to get rid of the Chair Collection. Do you realize how important this Chair Collection is? I told her about it and said, the Western Gallery will take the Chair Collection. Do not get rid of it! Do not sell it! There was some discussion about, still, selling it. I said, well, do you know to whom you would sell it, or do you know to whom you would give it? I called up Patterson Sims at the Seattle Art Museum, and I said, Patterson, I want you to come -- he was a curator. I said, Patterson, I want you to come and look at this Chair Collection, and you tell me whether the Seattle Art Museum would take this Chair Collection or not. He came up, and we crawled through the attic, and he thought it was a wonderful collection. And he said, if offered to the Seattle Art Museum, he certainly would take it. So I said to myself, no. He knew I was – BM: Fishing. SCL: -- fishing. So you know, I went and said, the Western Gallery wants this Chair Collection. We will use it as a study collection. It has always been a study collection. They said, okay, fine, but you will have to take everything else that was in the Home Economic department. I said, okay. Oh my lord, people! (Laughter) We had stacks of dishes, towels, we had, I mean, everything known to man. Ramsland had built up a department where you went into the kitchen, and this is how you designed a kitchen, this is how you designed a living room, etc. I said, there is no way I can accept it. I mean, it just is beyond the Western Gallery. What about the possibility, not to step on anyone’s toes, [that] we just store all this stuff for about five years until the 3 Editors note: Home Economics program enrollment was suspended effective, Winter 1992. 12 Sarah Clark-Langager Edited Transcript – July 2016 – Two Sessions Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED clamor subsides (because all the graduates of the department of Home Economics were livid that the department was folding)? I said, let’s just store all this stuff for five years and let everything calm down, and then we will disperse with it. That’s when I persuaded the university that we could have our first auction. They’d never had an auction before (laughter). I called it the bake sale, because it was like a bake sale. So I called in various people in town who knew about antiques, dishware, etc., and they helped me price everything. We put everything in the Western Gallery, and we advertised. We literally had to have [police officers] at the front door because there were so many people who were trying to crash the gallery to get to this auction (laughter). BM: So you did deaccession something (laughter)? SCL: So, we did. We got rid of all that. HY: And did you get rid of the duplicate chairs or things like that? SCL: Yes, we did. Also by that time, I had figured out what was all the student art and all the art that the Western Gallery should really have. I went to the assistant attorney general and said, I want to deaccession. First of all, I’m going to write to every student (if I could find the student). If I want to also deaccession something that has come into the collection that really just should not be in the collection, I’m going to write that particular collector and tell them that we would like to deaccession, and that we were having this auction, and it would benefit the gallery. A lot of the students said, keep it, use it in the auction and so did the collectors. So I went to the assistant attorney general -- who looked at every one of those files on who the donor was and who the student was etc., and gave me permission to deaccession them. So we put them in the auction and sold a lot of the leftover student work that was in the gallery. BM: So you have to go up to the Assistant Attorney General to deaccession? SCL: [Yes]. And then we had a second auction when we were putting the Chair Collection in the back room. I said, you know, we still have a lot of duplicates. So I went to the business office again and said, I’d like to have another auction because we’ve got duplicate chairs we would like to sell. Plus we had the wonderful orange crates from the consortium that people were just dying to buy and just a lot of stuff like that. Old frames, we had taken all of the works -- the Leese Collection were in all these old frames and, you know, terrible backing, etc. One summer, interns and I, spent the entire summer taking everything out, the Leese works out of the frames, etc. It was a mixed bag auction. But again, people loved it. BM: Was that in the early 2000s? I think I vaguely remember that. SCL: You vaguely remember that. Yes, probably. BM: Okay. Was Rosalie King part of the Industrial, the Interior Design? SCL: Yes. BM: Okay. So that’s that whole legacy there. SCL: Yes. 13 Sarah Clark-Langager Edited Transcript – July 2016 – Two Sessions Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED BM: Okay. And so, did you ever replace the chairs that were stolen? SCL: No. But we did replace -- what did we replace? The Matta, the Roberto Matta. What did we do? I called up Knoll, and I think they sent us -- we were missing a section, and I think they sent us a section for that. BM: So how many chairs were stolen? SCL: Let’s see. The Wassily chair was stolen. And then one of the chairs -- what’s the name of that designer who did the bird chair and -- a very important chair. BM: Bird chair. SCL: Yes, bird chair. Swan chair, bird chair. HY: Is it Jacobsen? SCL: Yes, Arne Jacobsen. HY: This is a very specific with the Matta there was one piece missing and you had it redone. SCL: Right. HY: Was cloth put on it? SCL: Yes. HY: Okay. So, basically in the Matta Collection, everything is there. SCL: Right. That one piece that we had to -- that was stolen, and so we had to go to [Knoll], and they sent me that one section. Now, whether they -- did we put cloth on it? I’d have to go look, to stare at it to see if I remember. HY: Okay. SCL: It’s not in the files? It doesn’t say anything in the files? HY: I have to look for it. SCL: Yes, okay. BM: So how many chairs do we have? SCL: How many chairs do we have? 50? HY: 65? 14 Sarah Clark-Langager Edited Transcript – July 2016 – Two Sessions Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED SCL: 65? BM: There’s that many? SCL: Oh, yes. BM: Wow, oh wow. And so, like – SCL: Because see, you know, there’s the chair room, but then there’s chairs still in the basement. BM: I didn’t know that. HY: They have been all brought out. SCL: Good. HY: I put them on exhibition at the library [they] created a space there. SCL: Oh, good. I went to the library and said, how would you like to hang all the chairs on the wall? (Laughter) BM: That would be good. SCL: They weren’t up for it. BM: And so, there were only about four or five chairs that were stolen then. SCL: I would say three. BM: Three chairs? SCL: Yes. BM: And that’s the only theft that ever happened in the – SCL: Yes. Now there were days when Paul and I couldn’t find things. And I’d say, just relax, Paul, we’ll find it. I swear we’ll find it. (Laughter) HY: Now, what are the other big issues you should explore? You know, highlights of your career? What are the exhibitions that you find most memorable and successful in some way or other? SCL: Oh, gosh. I would say the highlight of my career was definitely working with the artists in the Outdoor Sculpture Collection. My focus has always been towards sculpture. So you know, my great love was the sculpture collection, and of course my greatest worry was the sculpture collection, biggest headache. But I thoroughly enjoyed being the Director of the [Western] Gallery, in choosing exhibitions, and definitely trying to relate those exhibitions to the campus at large. I think that was the biggest challenge, trying to get the campus oriented to the gallery. 15 Sarah Clark-Langager Edited Transcript – July 2016 – Two Sessions Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED HY: And were there exhibitions that you were particularly proud to have [brought in]? SCL: I think probably -- I would say the Noguchi exhibition that we did, we have a very strong relationship with the Noguchi Foundation. So they offered their particular show on The Bollinger Years when Noguchi was traveling. I decided that what I would do would be to pair it with an exhibition that I would put together, particularly having to do with Noguchi and dance. I remember that exhibition very well. I’m very proud that we did the Northwest, first ever, environmental art exhibition, focused on environmental art, artists in the Northwest, the one that’s called Critical Messages.4 I’m very proud of that one. BM: When was that – SCL: That was in about 2010, I think. I paired up with William Dietrich, who was in environmental sciences. I went to him and said I know nothing about what are the most critical issues in the environment, but would you give me ten of the most important issues that you think are important. He gave me the ten, and then I did an exhibition where I tried to find artists who were dealing with those ten issues. I would always ask the artist, I would call and say, I’m interested in your work. This is what I think. Am I pushing it too far? I only had one artist who said, I think you’re pushing it too far. Everybody else said I was right on the money. So it was the first time that people had concentrated -- that any attention had been brought to artists in the northwest dealing with these environmental issues. BM: When was the Noguchi exhibition? Because it would be interesting because you’re going to get the Noguchi painted, it would be interesting to have that. SCL: Oh boy. You know, Michiko Yusa, who was in, who is still in the department of [Modern and Classical] Languages, she used to do every spring -- Japan Week, where she would concentrate on Japan. She came to me and she said, Well, Sarah, we ought to concentrate on Noguchi. So we did this symposium on Noguchi5 and various people wrote essays. I elaborated on what I’d written in the sculpture book on Noguchi. I re-read that essay again today, Barbara, and I’m convinced that you could go to the Ibsen Nelsen files in the archives and find some interesting information that you were interested in. BM: Yes. HY: Tell me -- I heard that an exhibition of the [Tibetan monks constructing a sand mandala] that got 11,000 guests in [six] days [May 15-20, 2000]. SCL: Yes, true. 4 Critical messages: contemporary Northwest artists on the environment, exhibit held at the Western Gallery, April 12 – May 29, 2010. 5 Isamu Noguchi and Skyviewing Sculpture, symposium and guest lectures held as part of Japan Week 2003, April 28 – May 1, 2003. Proceedings published under this title in 2004. 16 Sarah Clark-Langager Edited Transcript – July 2016 – Two Sessions Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED HY: Can you tell us about all of that? SCL: Let’s see, how did that come? Anyway, a Dean, Bert Van Boer, brought it to my attention and said, You know, I think this would be wonderful for Western. And so I just called up and said, we would be interested in you coming to Western and being in the gallery. They agreed to do so. They told Paul [Brower] exactly what they needed -- a big pedestal where they could do the sand mandala. We had this very formal opening. We had ropes around the mandala where they were working. End of Part One Insert provide by Sarah Clark-Langager Background on Western Gallery Studio Gallery (now called Western Gallery) started in the Thirties when there was a nationwide movement calling for more public spaces (versus private collections) where people could see art. The Studio Gallery was in Old Main and then [the Campus Elementary School]. When the Art-Technology building was opened in the Fifties (1950), the art gallery became known as the Western Gallery. It was located on the second floor, about where the lecture hall and slide library are now. In the Fifties at the beginning of the gallery, Helen Loggie, well-known printmaker, suggested print shows, such as John Sloan, and that is how we got our wonderful Sloan prints in the collection. Various faculty members took on the job of part-time director. Larry Hanson (sculptor) had the longest directorship and put the gallery on the regional map. A good number of small-scale sculptures and drawings in the Western Gallery collection came from an annual juried show which he did for ten years or more. Larry also did shows borrowing from Seattle collectors, including Virginia Wright. When I was Associate Curator at Seattle Art Museum (SAM) in the seventies, I remember meeting Gene Vike, chair, in Seattle and helping him with suggestions of good artists. He ended up doing a show of seven Seattle artists and I got to see the old gallery for the first time. Also during the Seventies the SAM head curator and myself took trips to WWU to see the sculpture collection – Jinny must have alerted us to one of her projects. The Contemporary Art Council at SAM had a critic’s symposium (Robert Hughes, Milton Kramer, [No, Hilton Kramer!] a critic from S.F., and M. Kangas in Seattle) at WWU and we all walked the campus. The new Western Gallery Craig and I left NYC in mid-Eighties to head back to NW. We stopped off in Texas where I taught, was director of North Texas University Gallery, and finished my dissertation. Gene Vike called me and asked if I would like to apply for the directorship of the new Western Gallery, which was being constructed/added on to the Art building; part of the first-ever full time job was also to take care of the sculpture collection. 17 Sarah Clark-Langager Edited Transcript – July 2016 – Two Sessions Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED 1988-2014 I started the job in the fall of 1988; the building did not open to the public until January 1989 when we presented a (traveling) Milton Avery show. In the beginning there was no time for grand visions as I had to dig deep in the archives to figure out the history of the gallery and sculpture collection and to construct what seemed to be a gallery collection of prints and drawings among a lot of student work “left” in gallery storage. There also were the 50+ paintings by Harold Wahl, which Gene Vike accepted because he knew the family and these works still take up a lot of room; I never would have accepted them! The only vision I had was to make the new gallery an all-university gallery, not a departmental gallery. I essentially wrote my own job description. Based on my numerous museum jobs, I knew what I had to do. I “appointed myself” to give focus and context to the gallery collection, sculpture collection and to try to rein in the activities of other colleges accepting art gifts with no forethought. Over time – in the Nineties- I wrote an operations/procedural manual for the gallery, which was approved by the Assistant Attorney General and President Morse.6 Knowing the legacy of Washington Art Consortium (WAC) and its two collections at that time – American Works on Paper and Photography [in the] 70s- I intentionally requested to store these two collections as I knew it would bring us prestige. People did associate WAC with WWU. I kept WAC alive (acting as president numerous times) until WAC got its 501c3 around 2000. (Ask Willow for copies of brochures, which give history of WAC.7 ) The exhibitions for the most part focused on national and international art, just like the sculpture collection. To get the full range of shows, go to Special Collections and ask Tamara Belts to see the gallery media books8 which gives information on every show done from 1988-2014. Based on the university’s goal of diversity, I did a lot of “multi-cultural” shows during the Nineties. In 2007 I took a traveling show of Japanese textiles called “Wearing Propaganda”. Julia Sapin, Seiko Atsuta Purdue, and I paired it with our own co-curated show –“Fabric of Identity.” From time to time, I would include one or two art department faculty in shows I curated and both Seiko and Cara Jaye were in this beautiful show. (Both Julia and I over-rode Seiko’s objection to be in this show.) We did several environmental art shows – the first being Botannica: contemporary art and the world of plants, and then later, Critical Messages: Contemporary Northwest West Artists on the Environment. Two favorite traveling shows were: Inescapable histories: Mel Chin: an exhibition [exhibited at the Western Gallery, January 28 – March 16, 1997) and Embedded metaphor (exhibited at the Western Gallery, September 29-November 22, 1997), a bed show which had some incredible installations. I had a goal to connect shows with other colleges/departments on campus. Paul and I did a car show with engineering technology materials, I figured if the Guggenheim did a motorcycle show, we could do a car 6 Under Acting Dean CFPA Ron Riggins I wrote an operations manual for the gallery and for art procedures on campus. This manual was approved by Assistant Attorney General Wendy Bohlke and President Morse [ca. 1994? Morse came in 93. When was Riggins's first tenure as acting dean?? you could just put mid nineties] In 2014-15 this manual, under guidance of Dean Kit Spicer, was officially accepted into the new university policies and procedures. 7 Washington Art Consortium set to have disbanded in 2017, according to www.artnews.com, February 23, 2017. 8 These gallery media books were deaccessioned from Special Collections and returned to the custody of the Western Gallery. 18 Sarah Clark-Langager Edited Transcript – July 2016 – Two Sessions Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED design show. We took a traveling show based on collecting and inserted collections from Anthropology and Biology departments. We collaborated frequently with Canadian Studies. We did a large chair show featuring our collection and northwest artists who did work with chairs. And as I mentioned, I seemed to orient myself to dance – first the “Noguchi and Dance” show in [2003?], then Diane Kornberg photos and set for Montreal Danse which was in residency at WWU, and finally with Gosia Wlodareczak’s drawings of WWU dance students. In order to get other departments involved, I invited faculty across campus to give exhibition tours on Wednesdays and they usually were excellent. I connected with student events such as fall parent’s weekend where the large receptions were held in the gallery. I gave orientation tours in the summer to new students and endured the annual spring festival. Greatest challenge My greatest challenge was to give focus to “art on campus”, including the sculpture collection, where both the administration and faculty outside the Art Department would/could see the interdisciplinary aspects of art. Sculpture Collection As mentioned before, I think it is important for people to see the connections WWU has had with regional events and arts – for example Paul Thiry (Fitzgerald, Seattle Center concrete murals done first at WWU, etc.) Certainly, Larry Hanson’s involvement with Earthworks Symposium was important and he probably was the one who told Gene Vike to call me about the gallery job (I have no proof – just guessing). The symposium began in 1978; the jury on which I sat was in January 1979. It was Craig’s early relationships with Nancy Holt, Robert Morris, Beverly Pepper, and Dennis Oppenheim at the symposium, which allowed me avenues to them when I first got to WWU. Dennis married Alice Aycock in late ’79-early Eighties so I got to know her through Craig too. More on sculpture the next time we meet. This is the second part of a two-part interview. This one takes place on July 27, 2016, in the Fine Arts Building on the Western Washington University campus. The interviewers are Tamara Belts, Barbara Miller, Hafthor Yngvason and Sharron Antholt, BM: I was going to say what we did last time so that everybody is on board, and then we go in the room. TB: Okay. Perfect, perfect. BM: Okay. So last time, we met at Sarah’s in Lynden on July the 19th, and we talked about the gallery, the history of the gallery, which we hadn’t really planned on but kind of organically evolved as we were out there. I didn’t know that the gallery started in the Thirties. It wasn’t called the Western Gallery, it was just called the Studio Gallery. Then Sarah [came as] the first director, hired in 1988. So that was a pretty historic moment, and it’s great to have all of this on 19 Sarah Clark-Langager Edited Transcript – July 2016 – Two Sessions Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED tape. Last time, we talked about what it was like coming with no files set up, with all of the collection kind of here and there, and trying to organize it. We also talked about the different collections, the Safeco, the Leese, the Chair Collection, and the Atkins Collection. Then Hafthor at the end asked her what her highlights were, and Sarah said the Noguchi Exhibition, the exhibition on environmental art, and she also said working with outdoor sculptures and the site-specific artists, which was great. That meeting was just Hafthor, Sarah and myself, Barbara. And so today, Sharron Antholt has kindly consented to coming and adding her memories of the Outdoor Sculpture Collection. So, if we go around the room that would be great. SCL: I’m Sarah Clark-Langager, past Director and Curator of the Outdoor Sculpture Collection. It’s my joy to be here, for you to joggle my brain today. HY: I’m Hafthor Yngvason, the current Director of Western Gallery and Curator of the Outdoor Sculpture Collection. SA: I’m Sharron Antholt. I taught the Outdoor Sculpture Collection for many years when I was teaching here. I recently retired. BM: And I’m Barbara Miller. I teach art history, modern and contemporary art, in the Art Department. I’m still here. Okay. So, I have some questions but Hafthor, did you want to ask any specific questions? HY: No, let’s start with yours BM: Because I have a list. I have about ten questions. So what was the Outdoor Sculpture Collection like when you arrived in 1988? This is a list of what we have now. I’m assuming that most of this work was added under your tenure, probably quite a bit of it. SCL: No. BM: Actually, probably a good dozen or so though. SCL: So, the Rain Forest [James FitzGerald] was here, the Norman Warsinske was here, the Tibbetts, the Noguchi, the Robert Morris, the Bassetti, the Beyer, the Hamrol, the di Suvero, the Caro, Melim, Westerlund Roosen, John Keppelman, Nancy Holt, Robert Maki, one Beverly Pepper - the Wedge, the Serra, the Judd. The Trakas was a temporary work when I arrived and later got added as a permanent work. The Aycock was here. The Scott Burton was during my regime, the Rückriem also, the Meg Webster also, Abakanowicz under me, the Otterness under me, the Nauman under me, the Ireland under me. Burning Island, what is that? I have no idea what that is. And Claude Zervas was under me, and the one that’s over in [Miller Hall] -Paul DeMarinis and Rebecca [Cummins]. BM: Okay. And then, also, Paul -- Claude -20 Sarah Clark-Langager Edited Transcript – July 2016 – Two Sessions Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED SCL: Claude Zervas. BM: Yes. SCL: That was also under me. BM: Okay. So a number, a good half, a good dozen, have been under your supervision and instruction. SCL: Yes. BM: So, what were some of the highlights? What are some of the things that you remember most about working with those artists, working with the committee? Maybe you should just explain the setup of the committee, because last time we talked about how originally architects had sway over everything, and then with public funding coming on board, things had to change. SCL: Right. So it was in the 1970s when the Washington State Arts Commission set up a public art program that the university sort of, what shall I say? In unison with a sort of awareness of public art, there were people in the Art Department, especially Larry Hanson, who made it very clear that it should be people who had expertise in the arts, make up the committee. Rather than a dean or you know, a vice president, a provost type. And so they got together what would have been known as the first sort of real Outdoor Sculpture Collection Committee. The committee worked together. Larry Hanson obviously was representing the Art Department, and then there was Richard Francis, who was in the English Department, but he was very active in terms of the committee. Richard Francis was superb in terms of taking notes of the committee. That is how I found out about a lot of the history by going through all those minutes that happened since, I would say, mid-1970s. Then gradually, when I came on board in 1988, we kept that Arts Committee, and it changed a little bit over time. Primarily I would say though, the main factor was adding someone from Facilities Management (FM), because anything you do, as you know, eventually ends up in Facilities Management, getting permission of where to work on campus. Then we had to work with the Washington State Arts Commission because they had certain rules and regulations as to what we could do and what we could not do. BM: So the person who represents Facilities Management, did they begin as an advisory role? Because now they vote. SCL: No, they were placed on the committee by President Morse. BM: So they were always a voting member. SCL: Yes. BM: Okay. SCL: So, depending upon where the funding was coming from, if it was coming from the state, the Washington State Arts Commission, there were certain rules we had to follow. Then if there was a gift, for example from Virginia Wright, obviously the committee -- that gift would be brought to the committee, and the committee would make a recommendation. The recommendation, obviously, would then go to the president, and then to the Board of Trustees. I would say that probably -- I would say in the early Nineties, it was when Western got permission from the State Arts Commission to actually nominate 21 Sarah Clark-Langager Edited Transcript – July 2016 – Two Sessions Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED artists to be put on the jury list, on the selection list. In other words, before that time, the only artists we could look at when we dealt with state money was the artists who were in the state database. We, having a very strong emphasis on national and international artists, really made a strong case that we should, given our history, that we should be able to nominate artists to be put into the database. That’s when I knew that most artists, for example, [Ulrich Rückriem], let’s just say a lot of them are, so even Abakanowicz -- if a letter was sent from the state that said, we are having a competition, please submit work. Obviously, artists of that stature are not going to submit. I would give the names of the artists to the State Arts Commission, and then I would follow up with telephone calls to either the dealer or to the artist themselves and just say, we are the ones who have nominated you to be in this database. Please submit. BM: Great, thanks. So I mean, there is a lot of sort of rumor, questions about how pieces were dealt with, when pieces broke down how they were fixed, and it would be really nice to have all of that on record. So, I was thinking like starting with the Morris Steam piece [Untitled (Steam Work for Bellingham)]. I mean, I think it’s really important to have what you and I talked about in regards to James FitzGerald’s work. And even though you’ve written a little bit about the Lloyd Hamrol, the piece [Log Ramps], it would be nice to have a little more information about that. And more about the Alice Aycock, the Beverly Pepper, and Keppelman’s piece. And at the end, I really want you to talk about what you told me about Nauman. Then some other things that you said in an email. So, if that’s too much, we can select it down a little bit. If there’s something that you guys want to particularly ask about or go a different direction, does this sound reasonable to ask about? SA: It does. HY: Sure. BM: Okay. SCL: So who -BM: So Morris, start with Morris. SCL: Robert Morris. The situation with Robert Morris was that one summer, a mother and her child were visiting campus and the child got in the Robert Morris and stepped on the hot, heating coils, because someone out there in the world had actually dug them up out of the earth. We did not know that they were lying right there on top. So, the young child got burned on the foot. The parents went to the university and demanded that the sculpture be turned off, which of course upset me greatly because I knew that the real problem was the vandalism that had brought the pipes up to the surface. So we worked on the problem of how to solve that for years on end. Finally, Facilities Management, the director, the previous director of Facilities who was an engineer came up with this plan, they tested it, and it worked. We sent the plan of how we were going to change the heating systems, so to speak, or the steam system, and we sent it to Robert Morris, who gave his approval to go ahead with it. He was kept – well, all of the artists whenever there was a problem were always kept -- I always kept them, you know, right there with me in terms of letting them give me advice or saying they objected to whatever I was telling them. So, I cannot, I’m not smart enough to tell you how the steam system works 22 Sarah Clark-Langager Edited Transcript – July 2016 – Two Sessions Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED now, but I’m sure there’s enough information someplace, in an email or in a file or whatever, that tells you exactly how it happens. The other thing that we did, we made sure that the pipes were down in the ground and that there was a grid that went over the pipes so that no one would be able to dig them up again. HY: Was the work moved? Or is it right in the same place as it was -SCL: Same place. That I would say that easily went on for about ten years. BM: Yes, easily. I think I remember when I first got here, which was about 16 years ago, and then for the longest time until a couple years ago was it turned back on again. And I always wanted to see it, and I couldn’t. It was just this pit in the ground. SA: Well I remember it when I first came here in 1996, and in fact the first day that I came up to the Art Department, driving around that corner and seeing that, steam coming up, and I had just seen the Robert Morris retrospective that had been at the museum, at the Guggenheim. SCL: Yes. SA: -- in New York a few years before that. They had actually re-created the Steam sculpture there, and it wasn’t very effective because in New York there’s steam coming out everywhere. SCL: That’s right. SA: But then I saw it here and it just took my breath away, because in those days, the steam would come out by chance. It was early spring, so it was just billowing out, this huge cloud and it was such a fabulous thing. I never got tired of seeing it. SCL: It depended upon how much steam or how much heat Fairhaven College or that end of campus actually was using. It’s true, during the summer, it just barely percolated and then in the winter, you would come on campus and the wind and it would just -SA: And it would just blow different directions. SCL: Oh, it was gorgeous -- absolutely gorgeous. SA: It was stunning. BM: So it somehow is hooked up to Fairhaven? I thought it was hooked up to the whole university. SA: The steam -SCL: Well, that end of campus. BM: Okay. SCL: So whatever that would be, besides the end of campus. But Robert Morris called me and said that he wanted to re-create the Steam piece at the Guggenheim. And I said, well, it’s okay with me, if it’s okay with you. So I had to go to Facilities Management and get the secret formula of how much pounds 23 Sarah Clark-Langager Edited Transcript – July 2016 – Two Sessions Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED of steam or however you measure steam to make it work [PSIA or PSIG], and so he could then gain permission, that I could send that off to the Guggenheim. BM: And so he was fine -- did he ever see the piece, whenever it was redone? SCL: Yes, yes. BM: And he was all fine with it. SCL: And the other thing we did was to -- there used to be logs that went around the rectangle. I’m pretty sure that he requested the concrete that’s there now that goes around it. We sent him pictures when it first steamed, that glorious day in the spring after umpteen years. BM: It was at least a decade, yes. SCL: Yes. BM: So, let’s go back to the James FitzGerald, because we’ve talked about that as being the first piece in the collection and being of an older generation of outdoor sculpture that really isn’t necessarily site specific -SCL: Right. BM: -- or more kind of a gallery piece that is outside rather than inside. I think it is a pivotal piece in the collection. So maybe you could tell us some of the history of that piece. SCL: Well that was -- Western actually started its own art program. They basically said that anytime Western builds a new building, we’re going to give some money towards art. So that was the first, it was Haggard Hall, and so that was the first piece. Paul Thiry who was the architect realized that the Board of Trustees had made this declaration, and so he decided that he would select FitzGerald to do a fountain. But basically he didn’t call it art, he just put it in the plumbing budget. And the work was, and it actually was, it’s hard to describe where it was first because you would have to know what Wilson Library looked like originally. SA: Hope there are pictures. SCL: But when I came, the FitzGerald piece had actually been moved over to the side of Haggard Hall. BM: There’s a picture here of the campus in the Sixties. SCL: Where is the library? BM: That would become Red Square, and I think the library’s here. SCL: So, it would not be on the side of the library that looks out over on Old Main. It would be on the side that where the flow goes from Red Square to High Street, yes. TB: Yes, that’s the first original place where it was. 24 Sarah Clark-Langager Edited Transcript – July 2016 – Two Sessions Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED BM: Oh, okay. Oh good. SCL: And so, I don’t know when, I don’t remember, when it actually got moved over closer to Haggard Hall. It probably was when there was a new addition to Wilson Library, when Bassetti [did his addition]. TB: 1972 [completed addition]. SCL: Yes, so they did the new addition to the library then it got moved to the corner. Then when they decided to renovate Haggard Hall and it would no longer be a science building but was going to be part of the library, they decided to essentially take out that whole section. It used to be that you walked in Red Square, went up steps, about seven steps, walked across, and then walked down about seven steps over to High Street. They essentially sort of flattened it, if you will. They put the skybridge between Wilson and Haggard, and they obviously told me that we had to move the FitzGerald sculpture again. So the FitzGerald also stayed in storage easily for ten years because they kept deciding what they wanted to do in terms of the campus. One of the ideas was that they were going to renovate High Street and there was going to be a section close to where Mathes Hall is now, and they were going to sort of have a -- what shall I say? -- sort of a seating area that would go around the FitzGerald. They didn’t get the funding to renovate High Street. So again, it just sat in storage until the Student Recreation Center came online. The students on the committee, Architects Committee, came to me and said, We understand that there is a general practice here on campus that when a new building is built that art is purchased. I said, yes, and then I told them about the FitzGerald that was in storage and how wonderful it would look on their front porch. (Laughter) They loved the idea. So the architects worked with it, and obviously that’s where it is now. But also we talked a little about the donor who had been here at Western, who was giving funds to help conserve the FitzGerald when it was brought out of storage, and he basically said that he would give money to Western if there was a plaque somewhere that would honor the veterans of World War II. And I remembered the other day, there is a plaque over in the lobby of the PAC.9 BM: There is a plaque though, there’s a donor plaque, and then there’s a plaque saying honoring the veterans of World War II on the side of it. So it’s moved twice? Is that what you’re saying? SCL: Yes. No, three times. The FitzGerald was moved three times. Originally in front of Wilson, and then it got moved to sort of the front of Haggard Hall, up closer, but up against Haggard Hall, and then the third time was when it went to the Student Recreation Center. 9 Editors note: Memorial Organ, dedicated on April 30, 1952 in the then new Auditorium-Music Building (now PAC). “The organ in this auditorium is dedicated to the memory of the students of the college who gave their lives for our country, 1941-1945.”] 25 Sarah Clark-Langager Edited Transcript – July 2016 – Two Sessions Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED BM: So what’s that, what, four decades or three decades in storage? SCL: No, I would say about ten years. BM: Only about ten years? Oh, okay. The Lloyd Hamrol also, it’s been moved a couple times too, right? SCL: The Hamrol originally was where Parks Hall is, until a bulldozer came and knocked it down. Obviously, Hamrol was called in to redo the piece. And I think, well initially, I think, the NEA had given money to help do a workshop when Hamrol built it with the students, and then the monies -- I would have to look at the credit line and where the money came from to actually have Hamrol rebuild it.10 He re-built it where essentially it is now. BM: So it was originally done in 1974 and reconstructed in 1983 and 1995. SCL: 1995 was when they removed a lot of the rotten logs. BM: Oh, okay. So, is -SCL: 1983 would be -- that’s about right because that’s when Parks Hall -BM: -- was built. Oh, reconstructed in 1983. So is that part of Western’s stewardship, or is it part of state funding? I’m just wondering because that piece is going to continually rot because of what it’s made out of. SCL: Right. That was an initiative on the part of Western. BM: So, we have to come up with funding every time we want to -SCL: Right. The Washington State Arts Commission, whatever they have given, whatever we have partnered with the Washington State Arts Commission for, they will only give monies for conservation for those pieces which are probably, what, seven? BM: Was that all? SCL: That’s all. They will not give us any money if it’s a private gift. They would not give us any money for the James FitzGerald. They wouldn’t give us any money for Nauman, etc., because it’s not part of their program. SA: Even Virginia Wright’s gifts, they didn’t -SCL: Oh no. (Pause in the recording) 10 Original funding: Combined funds from the National Endowment for the Arts, Bureau for Faculty Research, Department of Art, and Art Allowance from Environmental Studies Center. Funding for 1983 reconstruction: Parks Hall construction funds, gifts from Georgia-Pacific Corporation and Builders Concrete. Funding for 1994 reconstruction from WWU Physical Plant. 26 Sarah Clark-Langager Edited Transcript – July 2016 – Two Sessions Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED BM: So, Alice Aycock. I mean, that’s kind of a nice resolution about what happened to Alice Aycock’s work. SCL: Well, first of all, Washington State Arts Commission would help with funding on the Alice Aycock because it was in partnership with their Art in Public Places program. The Aycock, the architect of the Chemistry Building sent me -- came to me or sent a representative, I honestly can’t remember at this time, and said essentially that the Aycock had to moved because of the erection of the Chemistry Building. And I think you all have heard me say, removal is not a word in my vocabulary. So, as you know, they came back and they adjusted their architectural plans so that there’s this wonderful curve at the end of the Chemistry Building that sort of matches or sets up the same contour of the Alice Aycock. Then when they got ready to add Science, Mathematics, and Technology Education (SMATE) to that science complex, they again came and said, we need to move that sculpture out further. I said, it just cannot be moved. That’s when they had the idea of having the stairs that would go down. And Alice -again, I called up Alice and tried to tell her exactly what was going on and what advice could she give me and what she would really like to happen. She loved the idea of the stairs, that you had that sort of a little parapet where you could stand and look over the sculpture and then go down the stairs. She really liked that. BM: It is nice. I went out there recently -SCL: Because otherwise you had to stand where the Richard Serra was and just sort of – hope you could [see] it. BM: Yes, I think it actually makes the piece better. SCL: Oh, absolutely. BM: So, that was a really nice resolution for -SCL: A very nice resolution. So good things can happen. (Laughter) BM: If you get the right architect. Beverly Pepper’s, Wedge was moved though, right? SCL: Was it moved? BM: That’s what it says in an article I read. SCL: The Wedge was moved? You came up -- no, it wasn’t -- I take that back, it may have been moved but it certainly did not move very far. In other words, when you came up the front steps between Parks and environmental sciences [Environmental Studies Building], it was about where it is right now. What they did do was to put it on a pedestal; they built that sort of hill for it to be placed on. There’s an amusing story when they were moving all of those boulders out of where the Biology Building is now, they were just, you know, taking the sandstone boulders, putting them on the lawn. I came out one day, and the landscape architects had decided that they would like to put the boulders around the Beverly Pepper sculpture. (Laughter) I said, I’m sorry. They said, well, we just can’t move these. And I said, the Egyptians were able to move the pyramids, so you can move these boulders. (Laughter) 27 Sarah Clark-Langager Edited Transcript – July 2016 – Two Sessions Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED BM: I also read that the Keppelman was moved. SCL: The Keppelman was where the Chemistry Building was and so when that got erected, we had to check with John as to where a good site would be. He really needed a site that seemed to have a backing. In other words, so the trees now are also of a framework, if you will, or backing, for the sculpture. BM: And even though I don’t think her work was moved, the Abakanowicz -SCL: It was moved! I’ll tell you a delightful story on that. She came to campus and made the proposal - well, she gave us two proposals. One was that she would do something with the boulders out in the area where the Tom Otterness was, or she would create one of her hand-like pieces for us. It was a very, very difficult decision, but it basically came down to how much money there was in the pot. This also was a Washington State Arts Commission [funded piece]. So while she was here she sited the piece. Obviously it was made in a foundry in Italy and got shipped here. They brought it to campus, and it hung literally in the air until she arrived in the Washington State Arts Commission black limousine. She got out and went over and looked up at the sculpture and looked out over the landscape, and said, No, it cannot be placed there. The dedication was to be the very next day and we needed a concrete pad. So she said -- and actually where it was would be if you were walking towards the Fairhaven tunnel, if you look up there’s sort of a hill that you have to climb up to get where the Abakanowicz is now. The original siting was just at the top of that hill, but she moved it back closer to the road. So I ran to Facilities Management and said, oh my gosh, we’ve got to pour a concrete pad. What can we do? And supposedly there’s some miracle – that you can do that. BM: Fast-setting concrete. SCL: Yes. And so we got it done. BM: Oh wow, in 24 hours? That’s -SCL: In the nick of time. BM: That’s a heavy piece, I’m surprised. I’ll have to go look at the concrete pad. (Laughter) BM: And then, you have lots of stories of the Bruce Nauman [Stadium Piece]. About how it was sited -see, I never understood that it was always planned to be moved. SCL: Yes. BM: The move was part of the contract. SCL: Well first of all, I remember Virginia Wright calling me one day, and she was practically in tears, and she said, I have just found out that there’s no money left in my Virginia Wright Fund and that I’m going to have to build it up over, you know, a long period of time. She said she really wanted to do something for Western, but she just couldn’t do it at this time. So I reassured her that everything was just fine. Then when she was ready to give Western a gift, she called me up and she said, I would like to give Western a sculpture. Who are some of your favorite artists? Who would you like to propose? And I said, of course, I adored Bruce Nauman’s work, but I said, you know, Bruce Nauman came in -- I think he 28 Sarah Clark-Langager Edited Transcript – July 2016 – Two Sessions Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED was second to Abakanowicz when we had that jury. And I said, everybody was very much in favor of his work, and I think, you know, that people would agree, that they would love to have a Bruce Nauman. She also was interested in proposing [Sol LeWitt] and somebody else. I don’t remember the third person. But she and I agreed that if Bruce was interested, then she would commission him to do it. So she commissioned him and obviously he came up. He was interested in the Hamrol sculpture. He liked the idea of sitting, and he could see and obviously the ramp. He was very much interested in -well, everybody was interested in the whole sculpture thing. Anybody who visited really was very much taken by that. He made the proposal to do Stadium Piece, but the Board of Trustees, the president of the Board of Trustees made it a condition that he would have to place the sculpture basically where the parking lot is now, behind Parks Hall, and that when -- what’s the building over here? Communications. When Communications [Facility] was finished, they didn’t want it to be placed out in front of Communications because they wanted that to be a playing field. When Communications was finished, and then when the AIC [Academic Instructional Center] came online, they began to talk about being able to possibly move the Nauman where he originally wanted it, which is just almost where it is right now. But given the new AIC building, he obviously wanted to re-site it slightly differently because he wanted it so that when you came up from Fairhaven and you approached the bridge between the two wings of AIC that all you saw was the Bruce Nauman sculpture, the steps. That caused a great furor because the president wanted, when you came up from Fairhaven, wanted you to be able to see the front steps of the university. The artist won on that one. That’s all I’m going to say. (Laughter) BM: Did you want to talk a little bit about the plans that he -SCL: When Nauman made his proposal, he was very -- he was interested in the topography, everything that was going to be around his sculpture. He made this 3D model, and it had, you know, the landscaping just right, and then he had essentially this block that had been put over the Nancy Holt sculpture. When the model was presented to the president and to the Board of Trustees, it was the first time that it really had dawned on them that the AIC building was going to sit on top of the Nancy Holt sculpture. They had seen it in drawings, but until they actually saw it in Bruce’s model, it literally had not phased them. So Bruce Nauman, you know, in a sense I think saved the Nancy Holt, to a certain extent, in that they literally did not place the building on top of Nancy Holt. BM: Had he done a stadium before that? SCL: He had done a series of bleachers. SCL: Bleachers in a gallery, in the Donald Young Gallery in Chicago. Hafthor has in his collection a photograph of a Nauman bleacher piece. Have you found that photograph? HY: I’m not sure. SCL: It’s a gift -- it was a gift of an art critic in New York, and he had a photograph of a bleacher piece in New York City, and it was a Bruce Nauman. I think there’s some slight drawing on the photograph that Nauman had done. BM: So the bleachers are no longer in existence? SCL: No. 29 Sarah Clark-Langager Edited Transcript – July 2016 – Two Sessions Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED BM: They were just temporary? SC: Yes. BM: The more I think about it, the more I think that, and as you were saying, the Nauman was really, Nauman when he came, he was very interested in the Hamrol and the Nancy Holt. I’ve been thinking about the Holt as being a kind of arena. I’m just wondering if he was really trying to have a conversation with other pieces in the collection. It sounds like he was doing that. SCL: I don’t think he was. BM: You don’t think he was? SCL: No. I just remember him making comments on the Hamrol and the Nancy Holt. Obviously Holt and Nauman lived in the same area, so, you know, he knew Nancy. SA: He also had been working on these step pieces, which had irregular steps like our Stadium Piece does. He has one in the Art21 video, he shop talked about that one that he has where he lives. There’s also -- there’s one in Artpark that goes up a hill that has irregular steps. I don’t know the timing of this, but I think it was something he was working on at the time. He had one set of bleachers which hung from the ceiling -SCL: Yes. SA: -- when he showed -SCL: Yes, and he also did a step piece for Steven Oliver, and Oliver was – Oliver Company was the construction company that made the Bruce Nauman for us. BM: Wow, okay. So another one exists in this general area? SCL: No, Oliver’s is in – it’s out of San Francisco. Bruce also made a pro- Well, I take that back. I remember Donald Young, his dealer, saying that, Bruce is interested in several ideas. One was the Stadium Piece, and the other idea was -- you know, he was doing these like holes in the ground, these rooms underground, and he was interested -- and it was in a sort of triangular shape. I thought, I’ll never, ever, ever get the university to accept that. (Laughter) Never. So I said, I think maybe we should go with the Stadium Piece. BM: So how difficult was it to orchestrate the move? Was it a lot of paperwork? SCL: I think in the contract that the university signed with Nauman, it said that eventually it would be moved, so that there had to be a plan as to how it was going to be moved. And I think, I’m pretty sure that Oliver put into the contract or the plan was that they literally were going to pick it up. But when it came to being moved, they essentially moved it as if they were moving a house. BM: Oh, they put it on -SCL: They put it on, what would you call it? You know, when you do a flat tire, what is that called? SA: Jack. 30 Sarah Clark-Langager Edited Transcript – July 2016 – Two Sessions Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED SCL: Jack. So they jacked it up and inched it across to the side, and snow was on the ground -BM: It didn’t crack? SCL: No. BM: Wow. HY: We have great pictures of it. SC: And they had to rebuild the base. Yes, there are some wonderful photographs. BM: So do you want to talk about the Noguchi parking pass or no? I think it speaks to education. SCL: I don’t remember when this was but let’s just say, in the recent past. I went to get my parking pass in September, when we all came back to the university. I went in, plopped down my money, and they gave me the parking pass, and on the parking pass was the Noguchi sculpture. I must have just sort of did like that and didn’t say anything, and went back to my office and fumed all day about it. I finally called parking and said, I’m very sorry, but you do realize that we do not own the copyright to this image and you cannot do this. At that time, no one was really talking about copyright. I mean, it just wasn’t on people’s brains. So I said, you know, I’m going to have to tell the Noguchi Foundation that this is what you’ve done, and I am sure that they are going to fine you. And of course they were very upset. But I said, but this is how the world works. So I called up Amy Hau at the Noguchi Foundation and told her that I was very sorry to report that they had put the Noguchi on the parking pass. You could hear this gasp, but she was a very, very understanding person, and she said, you know, I used to work at universities so I know how this can happen. I said, you have every right to fine the Parking Office, and they did. They sent the Parking Office a fine of, what did I say it was, $500? And the Parking Office had to reprint the parking passes. BM: I think it’s good to sort of, speaks to how we still need to educate. Because even though these sculptures are on campus, we don’t own copyright. I think with, what is it, the GO, Pokemon GO, students are uploading sites for that, and there have been some YouTube sites that have been uploaded with -- Someone just sent me, Alan Stein just sent me a video on, what’s the game where they shoot with suction? I forget what it is called. SCL: I’m not a video person. BM: I mean, I think that it kind of all speaks together, that it needs to be a little more stressed [in our] education about the works on this campus, that they are [under copyright]. It’s pretty important that it be done. SCL: Right. BM: It’s an ongoing process. How do you do that when students are playing dodgeball or these shooter games inside, first person shooter games or whatever they’re called. They sort of have this sort of thing where they shoot these suction cups at one another through the windows of Nancy Holt, which is an issue. SCL: Well they used to -- every summer I used to give tours when new students would come on campus, tours in the afternoon. I’d take the parents and the students on tours around campus, which basically was 31 Sarah Clark-Langager Edited Transcript – July 2016 – Two Sessions Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED really sort of showing them the campus, but I obviously wove into those tours not a lecture on the sculpture but just helping them understand, you know, what the sculptures were all about, and how we could appreciate them, etc. Then for a while, I gave tours to the people who were in charge of the residence halls, so that they were aware of the Outdoor Sculpture Collection, and then the students in the residence halls, they could tell the students in the residence halls, etc. BM: There’s still a lot of vandalism on campus. SCL: Yes, but it’s the same thing, I think, when the Seattle Art Museum did their sculpture park. You know, it was like the first day or the first two days, there was graffiti on the sculpture in Seattle. And the newspapers, Seattle Times, The P-I, etc. started calling me and saying, we realize that you have a sculpture collection at Western, and what have you done in the past about graffiti? Suddenly, you know, after about the second call, I said to myself, I better really think about what I’m going to say. So the next time I got a call from a reporter, I said, you know people are used to going to a museum. They go to the museum and go out the back door and there’s this beautiful little sculpture garden, and they realize with the proximity of the sculpture garden right next to the museum, they are essentially in sort of a gallery space, and so they know how to act in a museum. When they go to the park, they expect to be able to throw Frisbees, you know, run around with friends and dogs and everything else. And when the two come together, sculpture and a park, they don’t know how to react. And so I said, basically, it’s an issue of respect, of young people coming to realize that it’s not just sculpture but it’s all property that we have to respect. So that basically was my statement any time somebody called me. (Laughter) BM: I don’t know, we can talk about missed opportunities, or issues of dealing with vandalism... I don’t know, what do you want to talk about? I did not know that we almost got a [Felix Gonzales-Torres]. SCL: Oh, yes. That’s a very interesting story. What was his name? Pablo Schugurensky came from New York, he was the head of the public art program at Washington State Arts Commission. It was at the time of the monies coming from whatever the credit lines is on Abakanowicz [One-half-of-one-percentfor-art, Art in Public Places Program]. He set up a jury, and he brought in two people from L.A., and one person from the East Coast, I think, New York. Then there were myself, Virginia Wright, Chris Bruce, who was at the Henry Gallery at the time, and Patterson Sims, who was at the Seattle Art Museum, on the jury. The three outside people, the two from L.A. and the one from New York were never given any information about the Outdoor Sculpture Collection, and Pablo did not put a tour into the program, a walk around campus. So they really did not understand, you know, what sculptures we had, what the campus was like, etc. At that time, we were not, I’m pretty sure we were not allowed to make our own nominations of people to submit to the database. I am almost positive that the people who nominated the names outside of the database were the jurors, because I distinctly remember going through long lists and trying to find how many people wanted X-artist and how many people wanted Y-artist. And one of the artists was Felix Gonzalez-Torres, and when he sent in his material for the database, he actually sent in a proposal of what exactly he would do here on campus, which was a boxing ring. We were all intrigued with it. But all I’m going to say is that there was a very -- there was a procedural matter that made us redo the whole jury system, because, and I cannot remember, again, I’d have to go through the files. It was either -BM: It had to be the early 1990s, because that’s when Gonzalez was doing those boxing rings. 32 Sarah Clark-Langager Edited Transcript – July 2016 – Two Sessions Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED SCL: Yes, right. And it was either something having to do with voting, or it had to something to do with the fact that we objected to the fact that this was the only artist that we were looking at who was making a proposal. In other words, we were swayed by the proposal rather than -- because always in the past, we always chose the artist, and the artist came to campus, etc. But it was a procedural matter, and all of us essentially woke up the next morning and said, uh-uh, something’s wrong. It wasn’t the work that was wrong, it was a procedural matter that we said, we really need to redo the jury again. And I and Virginia Wright and the Dean at that time actually went to -- I want to say the World Trade Center -- the trade center in Seattle [World Trade Center Seattle] and had a conference with the Washington State Arts Commission people to explain to them what we thought, you know, should happen and what we deemed had gone wrong. So we redid the jury, and that’s when Abakanowicz was chosen. BM: Okay. SCL: And, what’s the name of the critic who writes in Seattle? Jen Graves? Is that the name? The Stranger. SA: I just read something, and I can’t think of her name. BM: Is it Jen Graves? SCL: I think it’s Jen Graves. [She] found out about this years – how old is the Abakanowic? The early Nineties, right? So, she called me up, oh let’s just say 2010, and was very interested in this story. And we had to turn over the files to her so that she could, you know, look at the files. I had to take the files to the Assistant Attorney General and let her go through all of the files to make sure that Western couldn’t be sued or whatever, and she deemed that the files were perfectly okay. So there is some comment made by Jen Graves in The Stranger about the Felix Gonzalez-Torres almost happening at Western. BM: Okay. That’s kind of, 2004, that’s -- because Felix Gonzalez-Torres died, I think, in the late 1990s, mid to late 1990s.11 I don’t remember exactly when he died, probably was the mid to late 1990s. That would have been quite a bit after his AIDS-related illness death. What about Gary Hill? SCL: No, we did almost -- I don’t see it that way. The Gary Hill that we have, which is adjacent to Hafthor’s office, was actually a project of the state for two other buildings in Olympia. They decided that they did not want it, and so, the Washington State Arts Commission came to me and said, we have this Gary Hill that’s just sitting in storage. Are you interested in having the Gary Hill? And I said, yes, we would very much be interested in that. Then they proceeded to tell me that I had to put it in an enclosed space because of the projectors, if you will that he, the very early ones that he was using that might be dangerous. So that’s why it’s in the enclosed space. BM: In Hafthor’s office. (Laughter) Do you have any memories or recollections, Sharon, about any pieces that bother you as you’ve been teaching over the years? 11 Felix Gonzalez-Torres died, January 9, 1996. 33 Sarah Clark-Langager Edited Transcript – July 2016 – Two Sessions Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED SA: I know that Magdalena Abakanowicz has said that the cost of the sculpture, having it made and brought here was about exactly what the budget was, so that she felt that her piece was a gift. That happened to other artists as well, didn’t it, that they really didn’t get paid very much for their work, or is that true? SCL: Abakanowicz definitely stated that to me just as she was leaving and wanted to know were there any extra funds that could be given, and I said, no, I mean, that’s the budget. I think we have been extremely lucky [in having] artists who have been willing to work with us knowing that we had no money whatsoever, [not having] a decent budget. BM: Holt, actually, put some [of her own] money -SA: Oh that’s right, you said that. BM: Richard Serra paid for -- I don’t know, did he get money out of Wright’s Triangle? I know that he paid for at least one survey, about the ground. SC: Right. BM: There were like three different surveys done about that [regarding] the integrity of the ground where it was originally sited. I know he paid for -SCL: Right. But otherwise the money came from the NEA grant and the match by Virginia Wright. I’m trying to look here to see if there’s anything else. Another story I can tell you. BM: Do artists -- have artists donated work to campus? Like, not collections but -SCL: I always said, we don’t accept donations from artists. But we made an exception and I made a case when -- I just passed his work -- Cris Bruch offered some work to the university. The Cris Bruch works are down in the Communications [Facility]. I made the argument to the committee at that time that Cris Bruch had always been one of those artists who had been on our list of who we really were interested in someday having in the sculpture collection. Everyone agreed that that would be fine. So that’s the only - and then Mia Westerlund Roosen, she essentially gave her piece, Flank, but it had been, you know, it had been here for how many years before we asked it to be permanent, and that was a gift. BM: Any questions you have about conservation (referring to Hafthor)? I mean you’ve been working this summer on conserving a lot of work, and you’ve written about the Di Suvero piece in your essay, right? You wrote about the changes to the piece that weren’t anticipated? SCL: Yes. BM: Yes. I don’t know, is there any questions? HY: No, not about conservation. SCL: I’ll tell you a quick little story about the Do Ho Suh. Well, I’ll tell you two stories. 34 Sarah Clark-Langager Edited Transcript – July 2016 – Two Sessions Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED It took forever to site the David Ireland work. It took easily five years to site it. He wanted it in front of Old Main, because he had gone to Western12 and he had fond memories of Old Main. The president did not want it in front of Old Main because, again, it would block the view of Old Main. BM: How much would it block the view by? (Laughter) SCL: That the lawn of Old Main should remain pristine, even though we had the Donald Judd down there at the far right-hand side. Anyway, we sited I cannot tell you how many different places on campus, and, you know, there was always some sort of objection. Finally, Linda Smeins was the acting dean at the time. She and I came up with the idea that maybe they would accept the idea of it being put on the hill, the ridge of a hill close to Fairhaven. He was very, he did not, he was adamant about really wanting it still on the Old Main lawn, but he understood that this wasn’t going happen. So I would say that probably was the worst case scenario that I had in terms of just going around in circles and not being able to do anything that really pleased the university. HY: What were the objections that people had? BM: To putting it on Old Main? SA: Besides the Old Main lawn, there were other places. HY: Yes. SCL: One place was basically where the Meg Webster is now. So in other words out in front of SMATE. And we would go -- there was a wonderful person in Facilities Management who was great with digital photography, and we would take an image of the David Ireland, and I’d just go around and place it in various places and hand over the proposal to them. But that would not work because that whole lawn out in front of SMATE varies in terms of hardness and softness. It can vary like two inches. It can be very hard underneath and then go to complete soft and so the engineers basically said, that’s too tricky. Another place was sort of across from where the Robert Maki is now, in front of Edens Hall. They didn’t like that because that would mess up Edens Hall. Let’s see, there was a suggestion of it being in that whole area where Communications and AIC was, but I knew -- I really wanted the Nauman to sort of star in that area. So you know, we just ran out of suggestions. BM: And eventually wound down. SCL: Yes. BM: I’m assuming that initially there wasn’t too much to the contracts. I mean from what I saw on Nancy Holt, it was a description with some siting involved in it. How did the contracts change, with artists? I understand now the new contracts that happen have a clause in them that the work can be moved? 12 David Ireland attended the Campus Elementary School (Training School) during the 1930s and early 1940s. 35 Sarah Clark-Langager Edited Transcript – July 2016 – Two Sessions Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED SCL: I don’t know about that unless the state contracts have that. But contracts that are written with a particular donor, in other words, when Bagley and Virginia gave those seven works in 2010 or whenever it was, they didn’t have anything in that contract that said, you know, the work [wouldn’t be moved]. [Nor did] the university put anything into the contracts that said we had the right to move [them] anywhere we wanted to. BM: Oh, that’s my misunderstanding. SCL: That’s okay. BM: So, an artist can object if it’s sited one spot and then moved to another spot. SCL: The artist can object, I mean, obviously I would voice the artist’s objections, but whether the university would do anything about it is a different question. HY: But some of the works are site specific, other works like Meg Webster’s is not -SCL: The Meg Webster could be put any place. We could find other suitable sites for the Meg Webster, but what I’m saying is that there’s nothing in the contract that says that Meg Webster cannot be moved. HY: Exactly, it was bought for Virginia Wright, for her house and it’s been relocated here. The seven works that Sarah mentioned all came from Virginia Wright’s house. BM: Right, yes. I mean, I just found it really interesting that thinking about the evolution of sculpture, thinking about how it gets moved outdoors, and once it gets moved outdoors, you think about things like climate change, the climate hitting it. You think about environmental factors, but you don’t really think about university expansion. I mean I’m sure they thought about vandalism to some degree, but there are a lot more factors that are suddenly impinging on these works that weren’t -SCL: Yes, that’s right. BM: -- initially there. SCL: The Scott Burton was moved. When the Scott Burton came to us, that was part of the Meg Webster and the Joel Shapiro, you know, that whole big gift. The university said, the football team could easily move these sculptures, and so we really wanted them inside. So we placed them just inside Haggard Hall. Artech from Seattle helped us install them. Virginia Wright, oh, a couple of years ago, she and I were having a conversation and she said, you know, I really would like to have the Scott Burton outside. So we went through siting them. Actually one of the ideas was to place them sort of like on the porch of Old Main, so you’d go up the steps and there’s sort of a grassy area and place them there. Finally, you know, that didn’t really work. So we walked around, and we decided to place them in front of Biology, and she was very, Virginia Wright was very pleased that they were now outside. Artech had to come and remove them from Haggard Hall, and it was like moving the pyramids because they literally had glued them, used a type of glue to the floor. Also in one of the sections, they worked all day long on just one of the chairs. But they unhinged it, beautifully. HY: [I want to] ask you about the title of the work, it is Two-Part Chairs: Right Angle Version. Shouldn’t they be at the right angle? 36 Sarah Clark-Langager Edited Transcript – July 2016 – Two Sessions Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED SCL: Should they be at the right angle, meaning? I don’t understand what you’re saying. Should they be -BM: Situated. SCL: Situated... HY: So one is at the right angle to the other -SCL: Oh, to the other? I don’t know. That’s a good -- that’s a way to interpret it. I always understood that he wanted them like Virginia Wright -- you’ve seen the picture of how Virginia Wright had them at her house, and she said it was like the chairs were for two sort of guards, sort of guarding the doorway. SA: And they were sitting at right angles to the wall. SCL: Yes, yes. But that’s an interesting interpretation. HY: Is that a question? (Laughter) BM: And you can’t ask him, so. SCL: That’s right. But the Do Ho Suh, that was a very, very tricky installation in the AIC building because the artist was originally was given the -- now, you all who know architecture, where the original drawings by the architect, and then there’s another set of drawings that are called, what, made to build drawings or something like that? They gave Do Ho Suh the original architect’s drawings. So all of his team went according to those particular drawings. And when they realized that it was, that we had this made to build situation that Facilities Management was going by -- that they weren’t going to mesh. And if you go upstairs on the same level, what would that be, the second level? Where you can look straight out towards the sculpture, if you sort of move to the back where the elevator is, and if you look up, you’ll see these short figures hanging down, and of course the strands get longer and longer and longer. Where the short figures are, there is a sort of block section of concrete, and the figures just fit within that area. In other words, we did not have to start all over again and, you know, do the ceiling all over again. It was sheer miracle, that because the figures were smaller that they fit. As soon as you look up you’ll notice. I don’t have any other stories -BM: Did he come to campus for the opening? SCL: Yes, he did. BM: And so he must have been pleased with it. SCL: He was very pleased. BM: Oh, good. SA: He seemed to be, because he spoke at it. SCL: Yes, yes. BM: Yes, [I remember he talked and everything, yes]. 37 Sarah Clark-Langager Edited Transcript – July 2016 – Two Sessions Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED SCL: But you know, he had just finished doing that piece at UCLA, for the Stuart Collection, which was the one on top of the building [Jacobs Hall]. SA: Right on to, the house -SCL: The house that collides with the building. And I remember showing that to the president and saying, be thankful that he’s not providing this (laughter) – on top of Old Main. BM: [It is a] nice story because his work on campus kind of collides with the ceiling. SCL: Yes. BM: It wasn’t meant to, but it does that. SCL: Yes, yes, it does. BM: I mean, it’s a very vivid part of it where the ceiling kind of breaks into the piece. It’s kind of nice. Anybody else have questions? Do you remember anything else you want to say? SCL: Oh I’m sure when I get in bed tonight, I’ll remember something else, but …. HY: What was the most fun to work with? I understand what you were feeling, you know, I’m so glad now every time …. SCL: I enjoyed working on the Bruce Nauman the most, just because he was such a wonderful person. And Ed Simpson was the representative from Facilities Management, and Ed was excellent, excellent to work with, and would just try to help Bruce do what he wanted to do. And so it was a very enjoyable situation. HY: Could you tell me about the Otterness? Now that is not minimalist sculpture, were there some -- did it attract opinions about the Otterness? SCL: Well, when Otterness was chosen, I -- maybe we had a conversation about this obviously is not Minimalists work, but I think in the most cases on those jury situations, we really were trying to find the best artist possible, and you know, obviously, he was chosen. Because I was curator, I could not say to the jury, Okay -- I could make an argument for a particular artist, but I did not control, I couldn’t control the jury. In other words, my vote counted just as much as their vote did. So when Otterness came [and] walked around campus and proposed what we have now, the biggest outcry came from the people in Biology, because it was going to be -- the sculpture was going out there in the green area, the landscaped area, and they could not get it into their minds that the sculpture was only going to be 18 inches high. They kept saying, 18 feet, in that area? So the biggest outcry came from the Biology people. SA: And actually, after it was installed, remember we had that FAST magazine then -SCL: Yes. SA: -- newsletter, and for weeks after it was installed there were articles, letters to the editor saying that they didn’t think it was sophisticated enough for our sculpture collection -38 Sarah Clark-Langager Edited Transcript – July 2016 – Two Sessions Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED SC: Right. SA: Not from people in the Art Department, from other people that really didn’t like it. SCL: Yes, that it was too whimsical, that art couldn’t be funny. SA: Yes, art shouldn’t be funny, all those things. SCL: That’s right. SA: Which made me like it more. (Laughter) SCL: And so, I used to say, Well, go look at the Richard Beyer, go look at The Man who Used to Hunt Cougars for Bounty, that’s sort of whimsical, you know. (Laughter) BM: Well, I don’t know if it’s whimsical. SA: Students have another name for it. SCL: Yes, I know. HY: When he was there, was the [Beverly Pepper, Normanno Wedge] already in place? SCL: Yes. HY: You know, I know the one where one of the figures is holding a stone above his head, [is that a direct reference]? SCL: Yes, yes. Yes, I think so. HY: Another question, do you know El Lissitzky’s work from 1920 called [Beat the Whites with the Red Wedge]? BM: “Lead the Whites with a Red wedge” is what we used to call it. It was a comic book, it was not a comic book, but it was started for children, but it’s this very abstract circles and wedges that are about Russian politics at the time. Just to jog your memory if you don’t remember. HY: Yes, I was just wondering, would it be appropriate to expect Beverly Pepper to have made reference to that work?13 SCL: I would think so. I mean, you know, personally I would just ask her, but she’s -- I think she is very much aware of other people’s work, so, yes. HY: It kind of gives it a [provocative edge]. SCL: Right. 13 If one is to look at the work of Malevich and/or El Lissitzky and then the work of Beverly Pepper there does seem to be a resemblance to both of these constructivist’s works. 39 Sarah Clark-Langager Edited Transcript – July 2016 – Two Sessions Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED BM: It would be interesting to find out if she was thinking -- because like, Zaha Hadid, I mean, her whole work just came from Malevich and so a lot of the Russian Constructivist, Productivist work was highly influential to a lot of American artists. That would be fun to ask her. I mean, that’s a pretty clear connection. But it would be interesting, it would be great to just email her and see what she has to say. SCL: Well, her early sculpture, I mean, the sculpture that’s at Dartmouth is very, you know, very much like that, very sharp angles, going into the ground, and -SA: She made a number of wedge sculptures. SCL: Yes, yes. SA: Quite a few. HY: Everybody was doing sculpture with wedges at that time. BM: Any other points, questions? It’s your time to get this on tape Hafthor. (Laughter). HY: I have a direct connection to Sarah, so whenever a question comes up on conservation and things like that, I just call her up. SCL: I’ll say, just give me a day and I’ll remember. BM: I think it’s, I mean, just for my own little bit of research, it’s nice to have some of this stuff recorded. I mean, I like the idea of the oral history a lot. So it’s good to have this on so that it can be -SCL: But what really needs to be done is to redo the sculpture book, because so much has changed. SA: But that will continue to be. I mean, it will continue to change. Like, every time they do a new one of these, then they have to again revise it. SCL: Yes. Or at least do a book on, you know -- I mean, how many sculptures that are in here are not in the book? SA: That’s right. SCL: Easily ten. BM: For me, it was most frustrating doing research on this, in not being able to find an online document that readily -- I mean, I really had to search to find things online. And a lot of collections now have -- I don’t know if they really focus too much on paper products, but a lot of them have -SCL: You were saying maps and -BM: Yes, maps or, yes. HY: Well, we are launching up a new website in Drupal, in a couple of weeks. They’ve been saying that for a while (Laughter). But Drupal is much easier to work with that way. The website we have now is very static, and to make any changes/additions is a huge amount of work. Also it’s very difficult to search it, so you put in Noguchi and don’t get our website. 40 Sarah Clark-Langager Edited Transcript – July 2016 – Two Sessions Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED BM: That is frustrating, yes, really frustrating, to be working and researching. HY: So I’m hoping to be able to put a lot more information on the website, including a bibliography. But one thing that I really want to bring back, which I think is an amazing feat, you know, one of those great projects that you did, that I wish I had done, and was on my resume, was the interview of the artists’ on the outdoor sculpture tour. That of course is outdated now, and the technology is outdated etc. But I’ve gone through the text, and it doesn’t need much revision. Some of the other works can be treated in the same way -SCL: Right, right. HY: -- we could get an interview with the artists, etc. And my plan, my hope, is to basically use your text, add to it, use the same quotes from the artists, get the appropriate students from the Theatre Department to read it all and then have it available on the website. SCL: Yes. That’d be great. SA: It is in your book, much of those interviews are in your book. SCL: Yes. HY: The whole statements, whole interviews are there. SCL: What was I going to say? But we used to in the day when people did audio phone tours, people would come to the gallery and pick up a little walkie-talkie. Pause in transcript HY: But then, you know, when Robert Morris was created [Steam work for Bellingham], people were not so into thinking so much about the environment, but later that became a huge issue, because people wanted to turn it off completely because they did not want to display this waste of energy. SCL: That’s right. And they would always give me, you know, it costs so many millions of dollars per year to run the Robert Morris. And I would counter with it takes so much money to do, I’d pick something. BM: How much money does it cost to run the Morris? SCL: I don’t know. BM: I can’t imagine that much. SA: And much of it was excess steam, that’s why you get more in the winter. SCL: That’s right, yes. HY: But they refused to keep it on for the whole day. SA: Well, it wasn’t that you wanted it on for the whole day, because the point of the sculpture, which you spoke about in the beginning, was that it had to involve chance. You wanted it to involve chance. In 41 Sarah Clark-Langager Edited Transcript – July 2016 – Two Sessions Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED the beginning, that is what happened. It would come up more when there was more steam and dwindle down in the summer. SCL: Right. SA: Where now there’s no chance involved at all. SCL: That’s right. HY: That’s right, yes. So, since it’s been turned off and on? SA: Yes. You know exactly what time it’s going to come on and you know what time it’s going to go off, and you know how much steam is going to come out too. It’s no longer conceptual, dematerialized work that has to do with chance, what he originally wanted. SCL: But when we got with him and explained the situation, he did a lot of research. Going to, supposedly fairs, state fairs, [where] there are rooms that you can go in that have fog or steam or something. There’s this company that does this, this atmospheric thing to entertain the kids at the state fair, so he helped by looking at all those, saying would it work or wouldn’t work, etc. SA: Well, to a certain extent I can see that, because one of the ideas he’d been working with at that time was this interest in the actual making of the work, how it functioned, and this idea of plumbing was really – that’s why he talked a lot about how this plumber was a genius. SCL: That’s right. SA: And the idea of plumbing would still be there in this work, the fact that you could just make it work in a different way. HY: Marcel Duchamp said that the only great works that America had produced were plumbing and bridges. [The only works of art America has given are her plumbing and her bridges]. (Inaudible, multiple speakers) SA: -- Bridges and plumbing. HY: Bridges and plumbing. (Laughter) That he was trying to make a great American masterpiece. SA: And Duchamp was one of his great influences. BM: That would make a lot of sense that he would, so it’s a funny piece. I never thought of it as being a humorous piece, but it is. SA: It is. SCL: And you know, I once did a show in the gallery on the Outdoor Sculpture Collection, and I borrowed from the Seattle Art Museum the Box with the Sound of Its Own Making -SA: Oh, perfect. SCL: -- which was perfect to go with the steam piece. 42 Sarah Clark-Langager Edited Transcript – July 2016 – Two Sessions Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED HY: That’s in Seattle? SCL: Yes it is. SA: It is; it is because of the [ready made with the hidden noise]. Well, he did another piece called Three Rulers. SCL: Yes. SA: Which is like the standard stoppages [Three Standard Stoppages]. HY: Now Lucy Lippard, in her book Six Years of dematerialization14, that is just display, there is no text about it. It’s actually the steam work he did in Philadelphia. It’s just pictures of it. I saw just clear examples of dematerialization imitation. Do you know if he was thinking about that or did he ever? Was he trying to create work that was just pure display of dematerialization? SCL: I don’t know. I’d have to go back through -SA: My take on it was that, this was a perfect example of answering the question from Duchamp, Is it possible to make a work that’s not a work of art? Because sometimes it’s not even there, and still it’s a work of art. SCL: Right, yes. SA: And you can’t -- or like Christo [Christo Vladimirov] came to the campus once, and he walked around, and they were saying, Well, what if you built one here, what would you do? And he said, I’d like to wrap the Steam sculpture (Laughter). Of course, you know, there’s nothing, really. HY: That’s what we did when we did the Imagine Peace Tower in Iceland with Yoko Ono. You know, we explained to her that there were all kinds of environmental conditions and you would not see it for weeks. And she said, that’s exactly what I want. That piece was based very much on one of her instruction pieces from 1965, create a house with replacing prisms. If the sun is not shining the house is not there. TB: Well, I have a quick question if nobody else does. Because you did talk a little bit about Richard Francis and some other faculty who obviously kind of really engaged. Did that happen very much? I’m thinking of a nice article in FAST in 1997, when they’re talking about, I think, moving the Holt (Rock Rings). Vladimir Milicic, I think, in Modern & Classical, he wrote quite a little piece about the interaction of the three pieces on the south side [Rock Rings, Steam Work for Bellingham, and Manus]. So did that happen a lot where faculty got involved in it, other than being critical, to be supportive? SCL: I think there were various faculty on campus who were very much interested in the sculpture collection and would -- for example, the mathematician who would always give – [Branko Curgus] -who would always give his students some formula or something in regard to the Noguchi sculpture. 14 Lucy R. Lippard, editor, Six years: the dematerialization of the art object from 1966 to 1972: a cross-reference book of information on some esthethic boundaries … New York: Praeger, [1973]; 43 Sarah Clark-Langager Edited Transcript – July 2016 – Two Sessions Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED TB: I still have that on my desk. SCL: It’s in the Noguchi symposium book.15 Every spring I’d have to get out the folder and say, I don’t remember the formula. Just hold on a minute (laughter) I’ll get it. And there were people, you know, like people in Liberal Studies -- I used to go to Liberal Studies a lot and give lectures to the students on the sculpture collection. And I think somebody who used to be in environmental scientist, somebody by the name of John Miles.16 He was very interested in the Nancy Holt sculpture. So yes, you could go around to the different departments and colleges and pick out people who were very much interested in -SA: And as time goes by -- these are going to be more and more appreciated because their values are just going up and up and up, and I think as time goes by, they’re going to be much more appreciated. SCL: Yes. And I’m always amazed at how many people would walk by the gallery and say to me, I was in Chicago, San Francisco, whatever, and I saw a di Suvero, or I saw an X, and they would be just so pleased that they were able to identify them, the artist. TB: I’m one of those. Because I ran into one in Paris -- there was the Abakanowicz -- the Manus piece was in Paris. I was just shocked. I didn’t realize that people did multiple copies of almost the same thing. And there’s a di Suvero, I think, down at Stanford? Oh, it’s the one that’s For Handel. Who did For Handel, di Suvero? SCL: Yes. TB: Theirs is a smaller version of it, yes. HY: That’s a smaller version! TB: Yes, right. We’ve got the big ones, you know. It is exciting when you’ve been on the campus for a long time, and then you go someplace else and you go visiting and you recognize the work, and you’re -BM: I know people who make trips specifically to Western for the Outdoor Sculpture Collection. SCL: Oh, absolutely. BM: Take their students. SA: Oh yes. Whenever an artist has come to visit me, they want to see that first and me second. (Laughter) BM: Thank you. End of recording 15 Curgus, Branko, “Numbers in the Sky(viewing sculpture),” Isamu Noguchi and Skyviewing Sculpture, edited by Sarah Clark-Langager and Michiko Yusa, Western Washington University Publishing Services, 2004. 16 John C. Miles, Professor, Geography and Environmental Social Sciences. 44 Sarah Clark-Langager Edited Transcript – July 2016 – Two Sessions Campus History Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED
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Title: Ed Ruckey interview--June 6, 2018
Date: 2018-06-12
Description: Ed Ruckey is an avid fly fisher, fly tyer, and mentor. He joined the Fourth Corner Fly Fishers in 1986 and has held numerous positions in the club.The club recognized his countless hours mentoring others in 2002, with the establishment the Ed Ruckey Mentor Award. He is also a gifted artist and illustrator, with his illustrations appearing in Dan Homel's, Diary of Northwest Trout Flies (1991). Mr. Ruckey has also been involved in conservation work and was an early member of the Wild Fish Conservancy.
Digital Collection: Fly Fishing Oral Histories
Type of resource: text
Object custodian: Special Collections
Related Collection: Fly Fishing Oral History Program
Local Identifier: FFOH_RuckeyEd_20180612
Text preview (might not show all results): Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections Fly Fishing Oral History Program Ed Ruckey ATTENTION: © Copyright Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. "Fair us
Show moreWestern Washington University Libraries Special Collections Fly Fishing Oral History Program Ed Ruckey ATTENTION: © Copyright Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. "Fair use" criteria of Section 107 of the Copyright Act of 1976 must be followed. The following materials can be used for educational and other noncommercial purposes without the written permission of Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. These materials are not to be used for resale or commercial purposes without written authorization from Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. All materials cited must be attributed to Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. TB: Today is Tuesday, June 12, 2018. I’m here with Ed Ruckey and Nancy Messmer and we’re going to do an oral history with Mr. Ruckey. So, our first question is: how did you get started fly fishing? Or how did you get started in fishing, in case you evolved into fly fishing? ER: I started fishing when I was about eight years old, back in Gardner, Massachusetts. My grandfather gave me an Orvis fly rod and reel, and I fished his small stream that went through his farm property. It was basically brook trout. TB: So was that when your passion was born, or did it evolve over time, or? ER: It evolved over time, but it really got to me how hard it could be to try and catch a little brook trout, especially on a fly rod. But my grandfather instilled in me the, not only the fly fishing end of it but the conservation end of it. At eight years old, it really piqued my interest. And if I’d remained back there, I probably would have to say I started fly fishing when I was eight. Unfortunately with the war over and everything, things were getting hard, my dad lost his job, so we had to move out to California. There I didn’t do much in the way of fly fishing. I did fish with my father off and on out in the saltwater. Then the next time I had any fly fishing was when my dad and I went up the Highway 6, on the east side of the Sierras, and we fished Lone Pine, Big Pine, and Bishop area streams, and had a wonderful week and a half of fishing. TB: What got you into tying your own flies? That evolution? ER: That evolution came about when my middle son, Bruce, got interested in fly fishing and tying, and both of us took a class at H & H Sporting Goods. We started tying together then. We just fed off of each other: I can do this better than you can. No, you can’t, I can do this better than you. It just progressed to the point where I saw it as the only way to really have fun and enjoy fly fishing was to tie your own flies. From there, it just expanded out, and I started fishing some of the streams around here. I noticed there were people on the stream and a lot of them weren’t having any luck. They didn’t seem to have any luck. So I started handing out some of my flies for them to try, and things just progressed from there. TB: So how did you decide what kind of flies were working best? Ed Ruckey Edited Transcript – June 12, 2018 Fly Fishing Collection 1 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED ER: By studying what was happening on the stream, I knew that if you’re on a small stream, you’re not going to throw some big ol’ Woolly Bugger or something out like that. You had to go small and tie flies that would work, that would imitate the bugs more often, or they were imitations of the bugs. Sometimes it was just a real gaudy fly that worked, but it had to be small. So through the natural progression, I came up with flies that I used on the stream that worked, and that’s what I put my emphasis on. TB: So when did you get involved in the Fourth Corner Fly Fishing? ER: That was in 1986. A friend of mine, Norm Love, also Dick Van Demark, and a few others said I should join the club, get involved with the Fourth Corner Fly Fishers, so I did. In 1986 I became a member of the Fourth Corner Fly Fishers. TB: So can you tell me more about that? I know that you have been giving away a lot of flies and different things, but were there other aspects of the club that you were involved in? ER: I was involved in part of the youth teaching, also in some of the conservation work that the club was doing. My major involvement was being a club officer for, oh I think I quit being a club officer in 2010 or 2011, I forget, some place right around there. But it was the teaching of youth that I really got my best thrill. Lynden Christian Middle School had a teacher there, it was a natural science class that she taught, and she had us come in and teach fly tying and also a little bit about conservation and whatnot. But the fly tying end of it was where the kids really got interested. I must say, the girls in the class were a lot better than the boys because the boys had a preconceived notion, well I can do that better, type of thing. But the girls listened and did what I told them to do, and they learned to be the better fly tyers. TB: Did you then take them out fishing? ER: I didn’t take them out [fishing] myself, but other club members took them out. We had little fishing trips with them. But my aspect of fly fishing was, in taking people out, was more of a one-on-one buddy type system. I’d take somebody under my wing and show them what to do and where to fish. TB: Do you know if Lynden Christian first reached out to the Fourth Corner club, or did the Fourth Corner club reach out to Lynden Christian to offer their services or offer that program to them? ER: I think if I recall, and I may be wrong in this, but I thought Lynden Christian mentioned that they were, she had a group of girls, sort of a little fly club, but she liked to teach some of her students that, and she approached our club president. I believe it was the club president at the time. And we said, yes, we’d be glad to do it. TB: What were some of the other positions you held as a club officer? ER: A year after I was in the club, I became the outings vice president.1 I was that for two years. The next year following that, I was what they called at the time internal vice president, where I took and actually set up programs for the club. I was that for several years. Then in 1994 -- no wait, 1993 I became the club president. 1994 I was reelected as club president, and also in 1994 was when I had my heart attack. (There’s a little story about that). Then in 1995, I took another term as club president. Following that was a year that I didn’t [serve]. I was past president but still a member of the board. Then I became 1 External Vice President (Outings) Ed Ruckey Edited Transcript – June 12, 2018 Fly Fishing Collection 2 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED the outings vice president again after that. And I was outings vice president, I think it was -- I was outings vice president until 2010. That period of being outings vice president, I looked at what was happening, and that’s when I started doing the raffle on the outings, raffling off fly boxes full of flies. TB: That you had tied? ER: Yes. TB: Is that kind of when you started tying more flies for – ? ER: That’s when I really started producing the flies. I mean, you know, at times we had twelve outings a year, and I’d tie boxes of flies for those outings. The boxes would range from about 150 flies to close to 250 flies in the box. They’d come to the outing, one of the things that got them [to come was], oh boy, Ed’s going to be a fly box there. I want to go to that outing! It would increase the participation of the outing, which was really great for the club because the more we did that, the more people got to know the club through contacts and everything. On these outings, I always had extra flies along with me. [If] I’d see somebody, he didn’t have to be a member or the club or anything. But if he was out there having problems catching fish, I’d either row over to where he was or I’d walk over to where he was if we were on a stream, and I’d kind of show him where he should be laying his fly and everything. Then I’d give him a handful of flies. I don’t know how many, you know, could be anywhere from a dozen to two dozen, three dozen. It just depended on my mood for the day. TB: Could you talk a little bit more about how you decided where your outings were going to be? Is that kind of a club decision? Or is it kind of a seasonal thing, what’s a popular place to go fishing at a certain time? ER: Well it was a popular place. I would ask for suggestions as to where to go on an outing, and I might get maybe a handful of suggestions out of the entire club. So I just decided, I started picking out the outings, and I’d pick them out so that they were very diversified. There was always several local outings that I knew a lot of people could go to. Then I’d have one or two real gems, which would be places like Montana or someplace like that, you know. I think the major outings that I had at that time were a couple of the Idaho and Montana trips that took a week and a half to accomplish. I’d make sure I had flies tied pertinent to that particular outing. TB: So when did you get into illustrating? ER: I always have done illustrations. At one time when I was in high school, my two sisters were friends with Walt Disney there. At one point in time, right before I graduated from high school, I was approached by the Disney company to see if I wanted to be part of the artist group at Walt Disney. At the time, being a young squirt of 18, it didn’t pay good enough for me, so I didn’t bother pursuing it. But I have no regrets, because I got to go -- I joined the army. I was over in Germany, in an army aviation outfit, so I got to fly around the country with my officer. I also got to go on several trips around there. That’s when I started doing some sketching. At that time also my commander found out that I had a drafting background, so I became their cartographer. Ed Ruckey Edited Transcript – June 12, 2018 Fly Fishing Collection 3 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED But then the real start in my eyes was I wanted to make a little extra money on the side, and I guess saw all these different art shows going on and everything, I says, oh, I could do that. So I started doing illustrations and put my booth into different art shows around the area. That was in the 1970s, mid to late 1970s, I started doing that. About that same time, I met a person who became my friend up at North Cascade National Park. He happened to be the -- boy, I can’t think of the word right now (heck I’m almost 80). He was the interpretive specialist for the north unit of the park. I started talking to him about some of the stuff I was doing and everything, and he said, well why don’t you volunteer for the park here? We could sure use help like you in the early spring and in the fall. So I became a volunteer in the park, doing children’s programs on Saturdays, where I showed them how to draw cute little character-type animals that were pertinent to the park, little squirrels and chipmunks, and how to do it in a sort of an animated form so that they would be able to do it. That progressed to [where] I did up a complete learning format for children’s programs, which as far as I know the park still has up there. I did a little story about how Diablo Lake got its particular color, the emerald green color. That really hit the spot with the park, especially Jim Harris, my friend. NM: Did you write that story, or tell it? ER: I told it, after I had done the original outline of it. I’ve got the rough draft still at home, and I took it out and read it to my nephew and I promised him I would take and finish it, polish it up a bit, and do the illustrations in it, and then I’d give it to him so he could give it to his granddaughters. TB: So when you were doing that back in the 1970s, when you first started doing art shows, what kind of things were you drawing for that? ER: I was doing old barns, old outhouses, wildlife, and birds. Basically it was the old buildings around the country. I got into doing the birds and wildlife. At one of the Coupeville shows, in the 1980s, I had a biologist for the State of Washington who happened to be walking through the show. He came back after he had walked through and told me, you know, Ed, your birds and wildlife have more life in them on the paper than anything else I’ve seen in this art show, which, you know, this was from a biologist, I was really feeling good about it. Art has always been a love of mine. I combine my love of art along with my love of tying to the point where I can tie flies that have life to them, and it just works together so well. TB: I know you [illustrated] the Dan Homel book. Are there other books that you have illustrated? And how did you get started doing the illustrations for the fly fishing books? ER: I’d been doing some drawings and everything, and Dan Homel asked me to do the fly fishing book with him, and I said, yes, okay, I can do that. Then he wrote a couple other books, and I had some illustrations in those. But basically that was the only book I really did any illustrations for. The rest of it was hand-to-hand more or less, or my wife gave me away at one of her PTA things, and I ended up going into the schools and teaching art in their resource centers. For example, out at Birchwood, I went in there and set up in the resource center. They brought the classes in all day long, and I showed them I was starting a picture. I showed them how I started the drawing and Ed Ruckey Edited Transcript – June 12, 2018 Fly Fishing Collection 4 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED everything. I worked to get it to the point where it should be. I showed them samples of what other work I’d done. Then, when I finished that particular picture I was doing for Birchwood, I framed it and everything, and I took it on in, and they had a special session where I brought it in and presented it to the school. Birchwood (the art piece) was a bunch of birch trees with chickadees in it. Shuksan I think, yes, Shuksan Middle School, I was in there in their [Resource Center], and I did a drawing. I ended up doing a drawing of a cougar for them. NM: Was it that cougar they had, that taxidermied cougar, at Shuksan? ER: Yes, I’ve seen that. (Laughter) ER: Lowell was another school that I went to and Roosevelt was another one. Sunnyland was the home school. That’s where my children went to school. The one big project I did at Sunnyland was they had a lunch -- they had an outbuilding there that was their lunch room. They called them portables. But you know it looked so dull and grey and everything that my wife approached me and says, do you think that you could do something to liven up these walls? And I says, okay, yes, I can do that. I went in and I took a look at the place, and I said, okay, I’ll start here and I’ll work my way on around. I started doing Disney-like characters, and I started working them all the way around the entire interior walls. The running joke is we finally had to take the pencil away, otherwise we’d still be there. (Laughter) TB: So tell me a little bit more about your involvement in the fly fishing club and/or just some of the people you’ve known, like Dan Homel, Ralph Wahl. You knew Ralph Wahl, he’s not here, we didn’t do an oral history with him. What can you tell me about your memories of him? ER: Ralph, well, he was, to me, he was a gentleman’s gentleman. I mean, I just -- I’d go down into his cellar there where he had all his photos and his tying stuff and all that, and we’d sit down and we’d talk about the state of steelhead fishing and what was happening. He would also bring out some of his artwork that he had, like the Tommy Brayshaw drawings of a pair of steelhead that he’d done, that Tommy had done and given to him. Then a wood carved steelhead that Tommy had done and given to him. But, I mean, he had personal notes from Zane Grey and several others. Then every now and then he’d say, you got to listen to this, and so on, and it would be the FFF major conclave meeting. We would listen to the speaker, whoever it may be, and everything, and we’d talk about, well, what do you think about this? We just sat around and had coffee, and even discussed flies. How they should be constructed and what we should try to impart into the fly. TB: Did you know Harold Jellison? ER: I knew Harold by name but not real close. Dick Van Demark, I knew. TB: Could you tell us more about him? We have some of his books, yes. ER: Yes. Dick was an interesting individual (chuckle). I mean you either liked him or you didn’t. I mean, there was no middle ground with Dick. As far as being a fly fisherman and a fly tyer, he was hard to beat. I mean, his color combinations he came up with, his blending of fur and whatnot, I haven’t seen anybody do the same in all the years I’ve been fly fishing. I mean, he was able to take objects, put them together, mix them on up, and come out with this brilliant color that just seemed to blend right into the Ed Ruckey Edited Transcript – June 12, 2018 Fly Fishing Collection 5 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED natural surroundings. He was a real staunch activist when it came to conversation and everything. He did not like what was going on, and he didn’t pull back any punches when he did it. I remember one trip, we went into this peat [bog] area off the Mosquito Lake Road, and the first thing we noticed when we parked the car and got out and took a look was there was smallmouth bass fry swimming around in what used to be strictly trout. I mean, it used to be strictly brook trout and rainbow. There were these little fry running around that shouldn’t even be there. We went upstream a little ways and looked at another spot, and sure enough there were some bigger ones there. So I said, well this water comes in from Mosquito Lake, let’s go over there. Well, we drove on into Mosquito Lake, and I said, well, there’s a sign here that says private. We shouldn’t trespass, or go in there. He says, oh yes, this is where it is. He went driving on in, and it belonged to the Deming -- ah, they had a fancy name for it. But it was a club that had been founded there. We got in there and we were looking at the lake. We could see the building there, and we could see a couple people there walking around. We were looking in there and said, yes, there’s some big bass right there. And there’s no screen over this, you know. Sure enough, we weren’t there maybe 10 minutes, and all of a sudden here’s this deputy sheriff driving up. Dick started to argue with the deputy, and he said, no, this is private property you have to leave. Dick said, well, they’re allowing those bass to roam free, and they’re getting down into [Mosquito Lake]. Of course, Dick wanted to settle things right there and then, but we did get out, and we were told not to come back. But that was Dick. If he felt strong about something there was nothing that was going to stop him. Some people it bothered them to see that, they could not take Dick. But Dick Van Demark was one of my sponsors, and he thought I was a good catch, so. NM: How many people [did] you sponsor in the club? ER: I didn’t sponsor too many in the club. You know some of them [would] just come up and ask, would you be my sponsor? Yes. But I didn’t know anything about them. NM: Right. ER: I was thinking of the club when I sponsored [anyone], and I did sponsor quite a few of them that turned out to be longtime club members in good standing. But with me you had to earn it. I mean, I had to be out there on a fishing trip with you, or I had to be attending some other function with you in order for me to take and say yes, I’d be willing to sponsor you. TB: Could you tell us, for people who might read this that don’t know about the sponsoring system, could you tell us more about what is involved when someone wants to be sponsored to join the club? ER: Now it’s written right into the bylaws. In order to be sponsored, you have to go through twelve different steps. You have to attend the twelve different functions that the club participated in. You had to complete those in order to gain entrance. When you were completing those twelve steps, you also had to take and look at to the people who you thought might make a good sponsor for you. Also it was on the sponsor himself or herself to take and act accordingly and take and look at an individual and say, well, you know, I would like to sponsor you. I like what you’re doing, you know. Then after the twelve steps are complete, your name is brought before the board, and the sponsors had to be at that board meeting so that they could get up and give their testimony. Then if they passed through the board, the next regular meeting, they would -- also the sponsors had to be at that meeting too, and during the vote, the [person] that wanted to be a member of the club would have to step out. But if he passed the vote and also did the Ed Ruckey Edited Transcript – June 12, 2018 Fly Fishing Collection 6 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED twelve things that were required, he became a member. [Some] of the things that were required was to attend a couple of conservation projects, you had to attend a board meeting, you had to attend so many club meetings, and you had to attend so many outings, and some education outings where you went into a school or went into a club and taught young kids or something. They had to do these twelve things to see whether or not [they could join]. It wasn’t like it was in the old days when I was there, you know, [when] it was shake your hand, and okay, you’re good. TB: What about, were you involved in the next level of fly fishing? Like have you been involved in the Federation of Fly Fishers, or now it’s something else, but – ER: No, I haven’t. TB: You have been heavily involved in the Whatcom County and the Fourth Corner Fly Fishing club. ER: Yes, I’ve been involved with them basically because it’s local, and I really felt that I wanted to put most of my emphasis on local. I was initially involved in the start of Washington Trout2 way back when it was the first thing [to advocate for conservation and recovery of the wild-fish ecosystem in the Northwest]. The initial start was on a streamside where three people, Hugh Lewis I think was one of them, chatted about what we should do. I was involved in the two meetings when we were finalizing stuff, and that was held at Jeff [Stasques’s?] house, on the south side there. I even submitted one of my drawings as a possible logo for it. It didn’t make it. It was too realistic. NM: I see that you have there this statue [with an inscription that says], the Ed Ruckey Mentor Award, presented to Ed Ruckey in recognition of his major contribution to the education of new Fourth Corner Fly Fishing members, February 2002, want to tell us about that? ER: Yes. First off, it surprised the heck out of me when I received it. But I would take out any new member that would ask me. I’d take them out, and I’d spend a day, a week, whatever it took, and show them how to fly fish and how to be successful at it. I would literally take them by the hand, and I’d give them a box of flies, and I’d tell them what rod he needs to have, or she needs to have, and I would take them out on the stream bank or out on the lake ([usually] it was a stream though). I’d show them how to read the water and what to look for, and then I’d hand them a box of flies. And tell them, okay, you should try that, do an up-hand reach, let that fly drift on down through there, and don’t jerk or pull it out until it was all the way down at the end of its drift, otherwise you’re likely to spook a fish. And I’d show them, You don’t want to get in the water directly and wade halfway out and do some fishing. You start at the beginning and work your way out. Anybody that wanted to [go], I was there for them, no matter what. 2 Washington Trout (1989-2007) became Wild Fish Conservancy in February 2007. Ed Ruckey Edited Transcript – June 12, 2018 Fly Fishing Collection 7 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED During my tenure as the president, I pushed for the membership to allow women to join the club. I mean, we had one token woman member, and she’d been in the club a lot longer than I had, Susan Swetman. She joined the club when her husband was a member, and he left the club and left her, but she stayed a member of the club. I met her up at one of the lakes there up in Canada. But she’s been the only [woman] member that we had for a long time. Through my effort, I was able to get some other women members – into the club. NM: Including me. ER: That’s right. But the thing that made it easy for them to become members was the fact that I was willing to take them out, shoulder to shoulder and show them how to fish and what to look for and everything. [I treated them] like somebody rather than, oh well, yes, I guess we can have her; we need a few token members. In fact, it was I believe Sid Strong that put a title on me that I still can’t get rid of half the time. I could be out there fishing with a couple of the ladies in the club, and he’d say, yes, Ed’s out there with his harem again. (Laughter) NM: How did you get the Doc Hackle name? ER: Sid Strong. (Laughter) He gave me the Doc Hackle name because I had -- when I was out each year, I had several outings to different fly shops. Now these fly shops, you know, you go in and they got all the goodies sitting up there on the shelves on their different display counters and whatnot, but they were, you know, if you went in and just bought what was right in front of you, well, no telling what you’d get. So I had these outings where I’d take a group of people out, and we would sit down or have coffee before we actually went to the shop and say, okay, what do you need for what you want to tie? I’d find out what they wanted to tie, what they were looking for. And we’d go into the shop, and I’d one by one take them, well, figuratively by the hand and show them, okay, now you’re going to be wanting to tie this type of fly? Okay, these are the different feathers that can be used on it, but what you want to look for, and I’d pull off the back and I’d show them how the webbing was on it. Now, this one, even though it’s in the same stack as the rest of these, wouldn’t work because it’s got too much webbing or it doesn’t have enough webbing, so you want this or that. By the time I was finished with them, they had everything they needed for the particular fly that they wanted to tie. Then if they wanted to look around for something else, they’d grab hold of something and they’d come bring it back to me and say, what do you think of this? I’d say, well it depends on what you want to tie. He says, well I’m thinking of, I want to tie some Adams, or I want to tie this and some dry flies. And I’d say, well it’s not bad cape, but what you want is something that’s got a little bit longer feather and that the hackle stem is a lot thinner. I’d show them how to look for that just right dry fly hackle. After a couple trips like that, Sid came up with the name Doc Hackle, and it stuck. NM: How did it happen that you have youtube videos up? The Doc Hackle youtube videos? ER: Well that was part of a project we were working on, both Sid and I were working on. That was the rough product, that wasn’t the finished product. He decided to put it on up, it got kind of hectic. I lost one Ed Ruckey Edited Transcript – June 12, 2018 Fly Fishing Collection 8 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED of my sisters, and a bunch of other stuff came up, so we didn’t get back together to really polish it off. It was going to be a CD with about a dozen different flies, with me doing a narration. NM: A narrative, yes. It’s to music now. ER: Yes, it was always going to be to music as a soft background, but the narrative needed to be done, but just never materialized. Things got busy, and he was busy with Jimmy Buffet there, and I was busy with a bunch of other stuff. I think at the time we did that, I was also volunteering up in the park. No, no, I was finished with the park, but I was still doing stuff around the schools and whatnot. TB: So what are some of your own preferences for fishing? If you could go off and do anything you wanted, do you like streams or lakes? It sounds like you like streams better, but. ER: Definitely streams. Small mountain streams, especially areas that might be a little harder to get to, but a lot of times you wouldn’t have anybody else on the stream. I mean, you’d be there and you’d be by yourself. There was times when I’d just sit down on a log and watch the world go by. I mean, there was times on the Upper Skagit above Ross Lake there where I’d, even at club meetings, people would be off fishing areas, and I’d just sit down on a log and I’d watch. I was seeing all sorts of wildlife. I mean, I was seeing these yellow warblers along the stream bank, and I’d see kingfishers, and I’d see otters in the river, and I’d see black bears. I was watching one time and I saw a black bear with three cubs walking, wade across the river down below me. I just said, hi, you know, talking in kind of a loud voice, and she looked up, gave a little grunt, and off they went into the woods. But I mean it was a restful time. I’d sit back and just enjoy what was going on. If I had a person with me, I would take and set them up and tell them how to fish this one particular run and how to read the water and everything. I’d show them what fly to use from the box of flies I’d usually give them, and then I’d sit back and even though my rod was strung up and everything and I was ready to go, I’d be watching them, watching them fish and hook into fish and having a good time. They would look at me, they’d come out of the water, Ed, how come you’re not fishing? I said, well I’ve been fishing all along. They’d say, no you haven’t, you’ve been sitting here. I’d say, no, I showed you where to fish, I showed you how to fish, and I gave you the flies to fish with. I was in the water with you. Oh, I forget who it was, one of the ladies. It might have been Louise, said, you mean, that’s the force I felt when I was in the water? NM: (Laughter) ER: It must be. TB: So do you like to just go up for a day, or do you like to go for weeklong adventures up there, or what’s your – ER: Locally, just for the day. But to get away for a week was really advantageous. Up until the last few years, I’ve been a tent camper, and I’ve got a nice lightweight tent that I use, and I had a foam pad that I used to use. Finally age got to me, and I ended up with a cot but still in the tent. (Laughter) TB: So, anything else about how you see fishing? Have you seen a lot of changes over the years? Do you have any thoughts about that? Ed Ruckey Edited Transcript – June 12, 2018 Fly Fishing Collection 9 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED ER: Yes, I have seen a lot of changes over the years. Our small streams aren’t as pristine as they used to be. A lot more people are fishing, but of course we’ve got a lot larger population in the world today. But some of them, and it’s just a few of them, but I wonder if they think of the stream as their place because they sure trash it. I used to be up on the Upper Skagit almost every weekend during the season, me and one of my other fishing friends, we’d carry a trash bag in the back of our vest, and we’d see stuff in the water and everything. We’d set it up on the bank and put a stick up so we’d know where it is. When we’d walk back down stream to get to the car, we’d go by these piles and pick them up. We’d haul the trash on out. And you know, it just got to us. I mean, we’d find upwards of a full case of beer cans in an area and wondered, if they could pack it in, you know, without any problem, but they couldn’t pack out the empties? I know one time we were hiking out, and we got to our cars, and about the time one of the fisheries officers from up in BC happened by, and he stopped, and he saw us tossing the trash bags into the back of my friend’s pickup. He looked at us, he says, you guys must be from the states. I says, oh, why’s that? He says, because most of you guys from the states seem to come in, and you’re always carrying trash out that you found. He says, you take better care of our river than our countrymen. I’m going, what? No, really? He says, yes. And at that time I didn’t have my Fourth Corner hat on. I just had a regular baseball cap on. He says, I bet you ten to one you guys are from the Fourth Corner Fly Fishers. I go, yes. He said, yes, because your group seems to be one of the most dedicated to conservation of any of the groups I’ve seen. TB: Nice. NM: That’s a good compliment. ER: Yes, I think it’s a great compliment for the club. But yes, small streams are my favorite. Up until a few years ago, the high mountain small streams were my [favorite], but at 80, you know, I’m not going to crawl over a lot of rocks. TB: What about some of the changes in equipment you’ve seen? Did that affect you much? ER: There have been a lot of changes in equipment. The fly rods you have now are just power rods. I mean, I had -- no, I gave that one to my, one of my nephews, I think. I had one of the original Sage graphite rods, the graphite ones when they first came out. They had this graphite reel that went with it, it was a set that I bought at H&H Sporting Goods. Back then, it was like -- oh, that was back in the 1970s? Yes, right around the 1970s. Dates are a little fuzzy to me nowadays. But that was their first introduction into the graphite rod and rod making business, and I think the whole package with the rod and reel were like $100. NM: A ton of money. ER: Well it was then. I mean, it was after I’d started working for the city, and it was, you know, $600 was my monthly salary with the city then. But as it progressed, you know, the rods got better and better. I was basically a Sage person until, well until recently I noticed that Redington and Echo have come out with comparable rods at a way more decent price. I mean, you can buy a rod from Echo, say a 7 ½ foot, 3 weight from Echo for $170. $178 was the last price I looked. But the same rod, or the same quality rod would run you about $400 out of Sage. Ed Ruckey Edited Transcript – June 12, 2018 Fly Fishing Collection 10 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED TB: Wow. NM: So when you introduce fly fishing to new people that you meet that are trying to fly fish, what are all the things that you think are important to share with them? ER: As an introduction? I tell them, first off, you want a decent rod, but you don’t want to buy the top brand. You want a specific rod that meets your casting style because rods are categorized as fast, medium-fast, medium, and then slow. I’d hand them my rod so that they could take a look and see. They’d take and make a couple casts, and I’d say, okay, judging from your cast there, I’d say you probably want a medium-fast. The rod you want would be a five weight with a good weight forward fly line. You want a package, about 9-foot tapered leader, and about a, I think a 5X or 6X, which would give you -- say 5X, it would be about five pound test. 6X was 3.4, or something like that. But it varies from product to product and a set of flies, depending on how you want to fish. If you want to fish streams, here’s what I would buy, then I’d tell them what flies to purchase. Or you might want some of these. NM: It seems [there are] so many things to learn at the beginning when someone starts to fly fish, so many things that are new to a person. ER: Yes, it’s a total new experience. I had to learn to fish, fly cast with my left arm after my shoulder went out on my right arm. Having a hit-and-run accident when I was 13, it helped me make the changeover easy because I became ambidextrous. I actually got to fishing, fly casting better with my left hand than I could have ever with my right hand. But I basically tell them, you want to be comfortable. You want a rod that’s going to work for you and be a general purpose rod. That was usually a five weight would be right in that general purpose, because you could use -- get an extra spool. You could add weight forward sinking line or sinking compensation line, where it sinks at a level speed rather than a quick drop. Then you’d want an intermediate line that just sinks slowly below the surface, and you’d want your dry line. They’d say, well if I’m going to fish, I want to fish mainly lakes, then I’d tell them what they needed to fish the lakes, you know, the different type of leaders. In most cases, you wouldn’t want more than a 7½ foot leader on a lake because you’re using a sinking line most of the time. You don’t need to have extra leader hanging out there. I’d tell them what my preference is and what they should go for. Then the flies of course, I’d tell them what they need to buy in the way of different flies for the streams. Then I’d turn around and hand them a bunch of flies – (Laughter) -- for streams, you know. It might be one of the little boxes like that, with maybe a dozen or so, a dozen and a half of flies in it, but it would be everything that they’d need, from the weighted nymphs all the way up to the nice little dries. TB: So what are the things that you are most proud of in regards to your fly fishing? We’ve talked about the mentor award. Are there some other awards that you’ve gotten? ER: I got the President’s Award, which is something that’s always given. But I think my proudest moments have been when people come up to me and just tell me, if it wasn’t for you, I wouldn’t be in this club anymore. That to me means more than any award I could ever achieve. This just blew me away. I mean, I wasn’t expecting it. And it wasn’t just presented, and Ed Ruckey gets the -- I mean, they had a big -- Louise Granger had a big, huge celebration, and her speech going into it was really something. I was wondering who the heck she was talking about. The person that had helped her out and showed her Ed Ruckey Edited Transcript – June 12, 2018 Fly Fishing Collection 11 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED different things, showed her how to tie the different flies, how to do this, how to do that, and I’m going, Who is this guy? You know. I had no idea. She had the award in a paper bag, so I didn’t know. Then the president said, and the award goes to... Mr. Ruckey, would you please come up? NM: It was kind of a double award because not only did you win this mentoring award, but they named the award for you. Now they recognize mentorship with other members of the club. ER: Yes, there’s been about, since this was awarded to me in 2002, I think there’s been three others, that is all there’s been. They asked, and on a lot of occasions they ask me what I thought of this person or what I thought of that person. So yes, and when we adopted bylaws, this award was one of the awards that was adopted into the bylaws. So long after I’m gone, this thing will still be there. And I still, you know, I pick it up sometimes and I get really emotional. I mean, because my life has been dedicated to helping people. I mean, so you know, to get an award, yes, that’s nice, but the real reward and awards come from what people have to say about me. TB: So is there anything else we haven’t asked you? I’ve stressed several times that you should not be afraid of bragging. Nancy knows a lot about you, but I think what you just said is kind of hard to beat. Still are there some other things that we haven’t talked about that are important for your story? You’ve got some articles here. ER: Yes, this one article was one of the things that I was really happy with. It is an article that was in the Bellingham Herald -- oh gosh – TB: 2006. ER: Oh yes. And the sports editor was up – TB: Oh, Doug Huddle. ER: Yes, Doug Huddle, I couldn’t think of his name right off. He approached me, he had heard about the Bill Hall fly and how it came about, and asked if I’d like to do -- he’d like to do an article on me. I said, yes, okay. We made a date and I met him, and he had photographs ready to go and a camera ready to go and everything. We sat and talked, and I told him how that fly came about being. TB: Why don’t you tell us again how that fly [came to be]? This is one that you had originated, then? ER: Yes. I had been using a Griffith’s Gnat a lot. It’s an old, old fly, but it’s just a real high floating, bobbing type fly. I decided to play around with it. I kept the basic body of the Griffith’s Gnat, only I added red thread, and I added a tail, a red tail, and then I added a strike indicator. I got it tied up, put together, and decided well I need to try it out. So I tied up about a dozen and a half of them, and I had an outing scheduled for up on Canyon Creek, up by Glacier at the second bridge. It was an outing with food and everything else. I go up there and Bill Hall was there, and Norma was with him I believe that day. I walked up to Bill and says, here, I’ve tied these flies, I want to give them a try. Why don’t you try some of them? I gave him half a dozen of them, and I tied one on Norma’s rod. We got out into the water, and lunch time came, and he came back and he says, you know, these are really working great. I’ve had nothing but luck with these things all morning. What are you going to call them? I says, well, I don’t know, I haven’t Ed Ruckey Edited Transcript – June 12, 2018 Fly Fishing Collection 12 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED thought of a name yet. He says, oh come on, you’ve got to think of something. [I said], well, maybe I’ll call it the Bill Hall. So it was called the Bill Hall from then on. It’s been a very popular fly. Here again, it’s a small stream-type fly, and it works just great. Although I have fished it in the Methow, and it did exceedingly well on cutthroat trout, on parts of it. That’s how that one came about. I had some stuff laying on my table, tying table -- my tying table’s always a mess -- I started picking things out, and I said, well, let’s see. I’ll try this, yes, maybe I’ll try it like this, and I fiddled around and that’s what I came up with. TB: So are there some other flies that you developed? ER: Oh yes, there’s quite a number of flies. NM: What’s in your recipe book there? ER: Yes, this is my personal recipe book. But as you can see, there’s a number of flies here that I – TB: Why don’t you name them, and maybe the year that you developed it, and the purpose of it. ER: Okay. The P and G Soft Hackle, I should mention I’m quite the soft hackle enthusiast. Talking with Syl Nemes at these sportsmen shows, he sort of wet my appetite. But the P & G Soft Hackle was a cutthroat fly I developed to fish small rivers, small to medium sized rivers during the time when the cutthroat trout, sea run cutthroats were in the waters. The Callibaetis Soft Hackle is another fly, and that was designed in 2012. Both of those first two were 2012, and that was for lakes. The color is this ice dub. It’s a UV Callibaetis, but you look at it and it’s a real sparkly looking color. But when you dip it into the water, it just takes on an almost living motion. NM: Is that why you like soft hackle, for the living motion? ER: Oh yes. Soft hackles are an old English fly that’s made it over here to the west, and I love them because they do impart a lot of motion when you’re fishing. Then I had a Callibaetis Emerger, and that’s another freshwater, lake trout type fly. Then I’ve got one called the DHDC, Doc Hackle’s Delectable Chironomid. That was 2008. TB: So what are all those starting letters about? ER: Well, the fly is the DHDC, which spells out Doc Hackle’s Delectable Chironomid. TB: Oh, okay. ER: Rather than say the whole thing. Then the next fly was a Doc’s Lake Bug, that was 1990. Summer Duck Chironomid is a color that’s been developed by fly tyers and by companies, and it’s hard to describe. It’s sort of a olive-ish-brown but fairly light, and that was a 2012. Then another chironomid, Small Long Olive, 2010. Burgundy Ed Ruckey Edited Transcript – June 12, 2018 Fly Fishing Collection 13 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED Chironomid. Now these are out of order because I just wrote them in as I found the little scraps of paper I had and I put them in. The Callibaetis Nymph Flashback, it has mylar back over the -- the wing case is mylar. And the Callibaetis Nymph. Then Doc’s Peacock Eye Soft Hackle. That’s from the -- soft hackle with the feathers from the peacock. Then I had one that I found in a book, I modified it a bit. It was a Canadian book that I saw it in, I modified it a little bit, but it’s called a 1952 Buick. TB: And it’s best for? ER: That is for lakes, and it represented both scuds or shrimp. Beside shrimp, it also depicted other stuff like a caddis or something like that in the lake. It was general purpose. Here’s another one, Doc’s Table Scraps. TB: Why are so many flies called Doc? ER: Because I was the one who originated them, and they named them after me. TB: Okay. Well, it even goes back farther, doesn’t it? Doc Spratley and? There’s a whole bunch of them. ER: Doc Spratley, was named for the Mount Vernon dentist, Doctor. But that fly was originated by Dick Prankard up in Canada. I’d gotten my first two copies of it from an elderly fisherman. I thought it was real old back then, but, I was in my 20s, and this guy was at least 60, and I thought, oh man, he’s real old. He saw me out on Stump Lake, my first trip up into Canada. I had an old Sears and Roebuck rowboat, which was real tipsy turvy, and Stump Lake can get pretty nasty. But I was out there fishing, and I looked at this guy, and he was hauling in the fish all day long. Finally when I rowed into shore, he was camped right next to me, and he said, I see you’re having a little bit a [bad] luck trying to get some fish. I said, well yes, I just don’t seem to have what’s needed. He said, well here. Here, let me give you a couple of these. He gave me a couple of flies. I looked at them, sure, well, what do you call these? He says, well, they are named after a dentist friend down in your part of the country there, but my friend Dick Prankard originated them. I said, oh. He says, yes, they’re sort of a minnow or general catchall. He said, try them tomorrow and see what you think. Well I tried it tomorrow, and I started catching fish. He told me how to fish it and how to, what sort of speed I had to have on the rowboat and that. I started catching fish all over the place, and I’m going, wow, you know. Then I lost it, and I started to put on the other one, and I said, No, I’m going to save this. NM: As a model? To tie your own? ER: Yes. And so I took it on home, and I put it away in an empty hook box that I had, container I had, and didn’t think too much of it until I started reading a little more about the Canadian fishing and everything. And I saw this thing, and I go, oh wow, that’s the fly I got from that guy. It told me who originated it and who made it popular and all that, and I go, wow, you know. I took it out and took another look and sure enough, the hook was an old style hook, and it had the barbs still on it. The material just looked -- and I said, huh. So I neatly put it in a little plastic bag and put it back in this hook box, closed it up, and kept it off to the side. Once I found out where it came from, it, you know. Now I don’t know if Dick Prankard himself actually did it or whether it was just one of his friends, but I never did see the old guy again. Of course, when I really got to thinking about it, he was probably long gone. I mean, that’s the way I’ve lost a couple of old friends. I’ve lost a Scottish friend I never did get his name. I Ed Ruckey Edited Transcript – June 12, 2018 Fly Fishing Collection 14 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED knew his email. But he used to come out from Scotland every year to visit his son who lived in Vancouver, and they fished the Upper Skagit at the same time I did. That’s where I first met him. Half the time I’d be sitting on the bank listening to all these stories about fishing this loch or fishing that impoundment and everything, and I got to know a little bit about what actually went on over there in England as far as fishing went. Way different. But anyways, that’s – TB: So are you done? I mean, you did the Doc’s Table Scrap, and I think I interrupted you, so. ER: Yes. That was my name. And then this one – NM: Ed’s Ugly. ER: Ed’s Ugly. That was named by one of the club members, I think [Earl McQuirk] was the one that named it. He said -- yes, I’ve used Ed’s Ugly, and that name stuck with it. The Road Less Traveled, and that used a little bit of exotic material that I no longer use, like macaw tail feather and blue dun seal fur, but that was one of mine. Then another one was Doc’s Golden Pheasant Nymph, and that was for streams, and it was done with golden pheasant tail material. That was the 1990s. Ed’s Ugly was 2008. Doc’s Golden Pheasant Nymph was 1990s. Doc’s OC Cutthroat, the OC stands for Oregon cheese color. It was a cutthroat fly that I had designed. Then I had Doc’s Bloody Mary, that was 2007. Doc’s Emerging Chironomid was 2006. Then I read an article in 1978, 1978 or 1979 in Fly Fishing magazine about a fly, and it just really piqued my interest. It was what would happen if Bear Hewitt, Bear was his nickname, or Bear -- oh, God, I can’t think of his last name -- Williams. He was a 1924-era fly fisherman from Idaho area. What would happen if he and Hewitt, who invented the Bivisible, were to get together on a stream. Bear Williams originated the fly called the Renegade, and the whole article was a fictitious story about what would happen if those two got together and how they’d tell about one -- oh, I got this great fly. The other guy’d say, yes, I got this great fly. And what would happen if they had married these two together? Well, I married them together, and I came up with a Bear Tracks Bivisible, which has been one of my go-to flies on streams. NM: Do you have a copy? Do you have one of all the flies that are in your notebook? ER: Unless I’ve given them away. NM: Yes (laughter), that’s what I wondered. Ed Ruckey Edited Transcript – June 12, 2018 Fly Fishing Collection 15 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED ER: I think I got most of them. But I was thinking of doing up one of each so I could at least give it to my son when I pass away. But then there’s Cooper’s Bug, which I’d gotten out of a book, and it’s okay. It’s a nice fly, but I tweaked it a little bit to fit my needs. But I didn’t feel right in changing the fly’s name because it was his fly. Then I did an olive version of the Olive Bill -- I call it the Olive Bill Hall, where I took a feather instead of being that griz -- some plain grizzly, with yel

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