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Title: Peter Elich interview--April 11, 2003
Description: Peter J. Elich, WWU faculty member, 1961-1999; Distinguished Service Professor Emeritus of the University. In addition to department chair he was a long time Dean of the College of Arts and Sciences.
Digital Collection: Special Collections Oral History Program
Type of resource: text
Object custodian: Special Collections
Related Collection: Special Collections Oral History Program
Local Identifier: SCOHP_ElichPeter_20030411
Text preview (might not show all results): Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections Oral History Program Peter Elich ATTENTION: © Copyright Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. "Fair use" cr
Show moreWestern Washington University Libraries Special Collections Oral History Program Peter Elich ATTENTION: © Copyright Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. "Fair use" criteria of Section 107 of the Copyright Act of 1976 must be followed. The following materials can be used for educational and other noncommercial purposes without the written permission of Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. These materials are not to be used for resale or commercial purposes without written authorization from Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. All materials cited must be attributed to Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. This interview was conducted with Dr. Peter Elich, Distinguished Service Professor Emeritus at his office in Miller Hall on April 11, 2003. The interviewer is Steve Inge. SI: Today is April 11, 2003. We‟re talking with Dr. Peter Elich, Professor Emeritus…not quite. PE: Distinguished Service Professor Emeritus. SI: Distinguished Service Professor Emeritus, congratulations! And former dean of the College of Arts and Sciences at Western. The interviewer is Steve Inge. For the record, this is a second effort at this interview, first having been fouled up by operator error. So Pete, thank you for your patience. Could you tell us how it is that you came to be at Western? PE: I completed my undergraduate work at the University of Washington. I came to Bellingham and began teaching in the public schools, first at Whatcom Junior High School, which is now Whatcom Middle School. I taught a variety of courses. I had no room of my own. I walked around carrying history maps one time and materials for the science lab the next time. I spent two years at Whatcom, then went on to Bellingham High School, where I taught and coached football for a couple of years. During that time I was going to school at Western, working on a masters degree in school psychology and working graveyard shift at the paper mill. I had three kids at that time and a $3,600 a year teaching salary, so a little extra income was much appreciated! About the time I completed my master‟s degree, I was also not doing well as a football coach. Maurice Freehill, who was a professor of mine here at Western at that time, asked me one day if I would be interested in going on to graduate school. I hadn‟t thought about going on to get a PhD. He suggested I go down and talk to some people he knew at the University of Oregon. He thought they had a good program in the area of educational psychology where you could do most of your work in the department of psychology, since I already had a lot background in education. So my wife and I went down, spent a couple of days, and by the end of that time we were enrolled. That next fall we went down and spent two and a half years at the University of Oregon finishing a PhD. By the time I got out in ‟61, there were a lot of jobs available. I‟d done some research at Oregon, but was primarily interested in going to a school that emphasized undergraduate education and teaching. A position was available at Western. I made a phone call to Chuck Harwood, who was the chair of the department of psychology, and sent him a letter. I got a call back from him indicating I was hired. I didn‟t need to come for an interview because people knew me pretty well, since I‟d been doing work in the department. I had a lot of family in the area, so I came back to Western, for a starting salary of $6,000 -- a significant improvement. I taught a variety of courses, almost everything in the department except animal behavior. I was pleased with the opportunity to come to Western (then Western Washington College of Education), because of its strong reputation as a quality undergraduate school. We had a small lab with four rats, and that was about it, in Old Main. A few years later we added some armadillos. Carol Diers was interested in studying armadillos because they have identical offspring so you can tease out the effect of environment upon learning. She almost burned down the building I recall one time, when she had a heat lamp above the baby armadillos and it caught the straw on fire in the middle of the night! 1 Peter Elich Edited Oral History Transcript – April 11, 2003 Campus History Collection © Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED SI: In Old Main? PE: Yes, fourth floor of Old Main. Jim Jarrett had just become president the year before I came. He came from the University of Chicago, Great Books tradition, and started a shift almost immediately from exclusive teacher training emphasis, to a broader, multidisciplinary, departmentalized approach. There was a lot of difference of opinion on the faculty about this change. There were two groups, one that was going along with Jarrett to emphasize more the liberal arts and sciences focus. Prominent among those were Herb Taylor, Henry Adams, Don Blood. And then there was a group that was trying to hang on to the exclusive teacher training focus because we had a very strong reputation as a teacher training institution, particularly at the elementary level, but also to some extent at the secondary level. We had a national reputation of being one of the better teacher training institutions in the country, and people didn‟t want to lose that by moving in another direction. I taught at Western in the department of psychology until about 1971. I worked with Tom Billings in setting up one of the first Upward Bound programs in the country. Billings went on to become the national director of the Upward Bound Program. During the latter years of the „60s, I spent a lot of time traveling around the country – literally, the Pacific Islands, Alaska, and Pacific Northwest, helping set up Upward Bound programs and doing evaluations of those programs. In about ‟68, ‟69, I was involved in trying to set up a programmed learning workshop during the summer. That was a hot new thing at the time based on the theories of B. F. Skinner. We looked around the country to find where the activity was going on. Xerox was big in program instruction at that time, and they had a person who I wanted to bring but he couldn‟t come, so they suggested another fellow, Bill Laidlaw. Bill came out and spent that summer and liked it so well here that he took a leave and stayed an entire year. Then he went back to New York and got involved in the New York State Higher Education System. He was hired by the City University of New York to be the dean of developing Hostos Community College, which was in the South Bronx. Because I‟d had some involvement in working with American Indian kids, and Hispanic educational issues, he called me and asked me if I was interested in coming back. I went back and spent two and a half years in New York helping to get that program going. I headed up the social and behavioral science area, selecting faculty and developing curriculum. It was a very, very interesting experience. Bill later came back and became the President of Whatcom Community College, and unfortunately was stricken by cancer a few years into his tenure there. He was a very close friend of mine, and a very great loss, not only to his friends and family, but to the community and to the community college. Soon after I came back, Meryl Meyer, who was the chairman of the psychology department, took a position at University of Florida, and I was selected as the chair of the department. I served as chair of the department for fifteen years. We had as many as thirty two faculty at one time, principally because we had a very heavy proportion of the teacher education program. We taught measurement, learning and child and adolescent development for all students planning to become teachers. Then in about ‟83, the dean‟s position became open in Arts and Sciences. Jim Davis stepped down, and I was appointed interim dean. I was the successful candidate and became dean of the College, where I served until my retirement at the end of fall quarter, 1999. One particularly noteworthy experience during the time that I was department chair, Bill McDonald suffered a mild heart attack. He was the dean of men at that time, and I was asked if I would stand in for him until he recovered, which would be a couple of months. So I spent half a day over here chairing the department, and half a day over there at the dean of men‟s office. It was during the time there was the Vietnam issue, and things got pretty hot around here. There was a mass demonstration one day on Red Square with the Weathermen here with big dogs and side arms, and it had the potential for getting pretty nasty. Jerry Flora was president at that time. Flora and his inner circle of 2 Peter Elich Edited Oral History Transcript – April 11, 2003 Campus History Collection © Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED people, sometimes they called them “the six pack.” I don‟t remember all six, but it was at least Alan Ross and Herb Taylor and I think Jim Hitchman, who was the dean of students at that time. Sam was probably there; Sam Kelly was always part of that group, and whoever else might have been there at that time. The president of the Faculty Senate perhaps, whoever that was. They were up in Flora‟s office, and I was sort of the runner between, communicating messages between them and the students. I would go out and hear what the students had to say, and then I‟d run upstairs and tell them what the students had to say, and then they‟d tell me what I was supposed to tell the students and I would run back down and tell the students. Then I‟d hear more from the students, and I‟d run back up and tell them. I must have made that trip six or eight times during that day. During one of these times, I was standing on the edge of the pond there, and the students were getting understandably a little frustrated with not having direct access to the President, but to somebody they didn‟t even recognize as having any authority at all, which was true! And somebody hollered out, “Throw the fucker in the pond!” They started moving toward me. Fortunately for me, there was a circle of football players, I later learned, who warded them off and ushered me to a safe entry back up the stairs and told me that I when I came back down they would take care of me. This potentially violent situation was calmed by a group of faculty, organized and led by Professor Mike Mischaikow from the economics department who broke the students into small groups, where faculty would listen to what they had to say and reassure them that they would bring their concerns to the attention of university officials. Let‟s see, what else…Well I think that the transition of the presidents I‟ve had the opportunity to work with maybe warrants a comment. I mentioned Jarrett to begin with. I got to know Jarrett reasonable well because I was in the psychology department where some of his closer advisors were, people like Don Blood, Henry Adams and Carol Diers. I socialized somewhat with Jarrett and that group, so I got to know him reasonable well. I had a high regard for his intellectual capability and his direction. I think that period of time probably represents one of the most significant periods in the history of the University, that shift from exclusively teacher education to Western Washington State College and then eventually to Western Washington University. And then following Jarrett I think we have Harvey Bunke, who didn‟t stay long, but I thought Bunke was a very good president. He actually encouraged me to look into academic administration. He called me over one day and asked me if I was interested in going to an administrative workshop at the University of Minnesota. So I went to that for three or four days and learned about how you shuffle paper and that kind stuff. But he was encouraging. And then I think we had Flora following that, yes. And Jerry was a very popular president at the beginning of his tenure because he was a very well-known faculty member, an outstanding faculty member, an excellent teacher and campus leader and well-liked by people. I had the opportunity to work closely with Jerry Flora as well. It was during that time (1969) we had enabling legislation from the legislature to grant a PhD. They didn‟t give us any money, but they gave us the enabling legislation. I wrote a proposal for a PhD program in school psychology with some people in education and we had the appropriate visitations from people who could evaluate the program and so on and it came out pretty well. So Flora and Alan Ross, who was dean of the graduate school at that time, and I traveled around to visit each of the members of the council, I think it was the Council of Post-Secondary Education, the group that was essentially responsible for making recommendations to the legislature and to the governor regarding higher education issues. And we visited each of them in their own communities, took the person to dinner, and lobbied them on behalf of our proposal. Flora meanwhile had been lobbying the presidents of the other four year institutions. When we went to the meeting where the vote was to be taken, it appeared as though we had a narrow majority voting in favor of us. Just after the debate and just before the vote, the President of the University of Washington, called for a brief recess, and called the presidents of Central and Eastern over and when the vote came, the presidents of Central and Eastern voted against us. And Flora was quite sure that they would vote in favor. As I recall, they said that they were informed by the President of the University of Washington that their chances of ever being named a university would be markedly reduced if they supported our effort to have a PhD program. They were, as we, interested in becoming a university at that time. That was another issue before us. So we lost the opportunity. We could have gone ahead with the program, but we lost the opportunity for any funding. In retrospect, I think it is a good thing that we did not pursue a doctorate program because of our undergraduate program. We are principally an undergraduate institution, that‟s our main strength. When you have a doctorate program, you tend to put a lot of your main resources, your strongest resources, into that program. 3 Peter Elich Edited Oral History Transcript – April 11, 2003 Campus History Collection © Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED SI: At that time, the institution was some what of an even balance still between teacher education and arts and sciences, and many of the other colleges had yet to emerge, so it was a logical position at that time. PE: Right, right, yes, that‟s right. I think it was about in that time when the cluster college concept began? I think Paul Woodring was one of the people who was influential in that movement; the idea that we would develop a variety of small cluster colleges with different kinds of emphases. They would be relatively small, and some faculty would live in with students, so that you would have kind of the Oxford environment. By the time the first of those was developed, Fairhaven, the glamour of that approach sort of wore off and nobody wanted to live in! Students didn‟t even want to live there! But Fairhaven was developed and endures today. I think it offers an excellent educational opportunity for some students who need the more flexible environment that they have in Fairhaven. Huxley was also developed following that same concept and endures today as one of the relatively few remaining environmental studies programs. A lot of them were developed, and a lot of them fell by the wayside. Also the College of Ethnic Studies was developed. I think the recommendation by the dean of the College of Ethnic Studies, Jesse Hiroaka, to close the College of Ethnic Studies, was probably as unique among deans‟ actions in the history of higher education. But Jesse had the foresight to see that isolating minority students was not what you were trying to accomplish. What you wanted to do is to have broad cultural integration in the campus, rather than to isolate the minority students from the majority population, so Ethnic Studies was closed. PE: Paul Olscamp followed Flora. I was on the search committee for Olscamp as well. He provided strong academic leadership. I think that that combination of Olscamp and Talbot, in terms of the internal management of the university, was one of the strongest periods in our history. Talbot, in my judgement, was an excellent provost. He was strongly supported by Jim Albers, who was this person that you interacted with on financial matters. I remember going frequently to Albers‟ office, where you had to go for additional sections of this, that, and the other thing. It was like going to a loan shark without any collateral. But you usually got what you needed, but not always what you wanted. Olscamp pretty well let Talbot run the show inside. I‟m sure they conferred about directions and things of that sort. I took the proposal for the PhD program to Olscamp a few months after he was here and reviewed it for him briefly. What he already knew, I‟m sure, was that we had the enabling legislation. The Counsel on PostSecondary Education voted against our doing it, so we had no resources coming, but I asked him if he wanted to do anything further with it and he, decided that we should not pursue that at this time. PE: Following Olscamp we had Bob Ross. I was rather fond of Bob Ross, as a personal friend as well as a president. He was a marked contrast to Olscamp. Olscamp was much more of a strong academician in orientation. I think much more of – I don‟t want to call him “elitist” – but much more focused upon quality undergraduate education, focusing upon relatively few programs. Don‟t expand too far, but make sure you have very good study in-depth, and attract the very strongest students you possibly can to those programs. Ross was very much of a populist. His approach was that we should offer a wide variety of programs appropriate for a regional comprehensive university. If a student came to Western for a quarter that would probably enrich their lives, even if they didn‟t go on to school beyond that point. We went through the frequent drill of developing a strategic plan during that time. I remember we developed a variety of objectives. We‟d have list of a dozen or so and people said, “Well what about this?” and Ross said “We‟ll add that!” We added it, and we ended up with, I don‟t know, forty, fifty objectives, which gave him license to do anything he wanted to. He could make this decision, and say, “Well this fits items six, seven, eight, nine, ten…” whatever. Backing up, somewhere during that period of time, and I don‟t recall exactly the year, we went through a serious budget reduction. It was prior to Ross. It may have been during either Olscamp or maybe even Flora‟s tenure. We had a big Reduction in Force at the University. We had the Mischaikow Committee, and I was a member of the Mischaikow Committee. I think we met all summer long and we had to reduce by a hundred and twenty some positions in the University, which we were able to do largely by attrition. Some departments even took reduced salaries for a period of time to save some people. We came out of that. But that represents, I think, a very important period in the University‟s history. Comparing Central and Western which were very similar prior to that, more similar than they are now, Western took the position that we‟re going to retain essentially the structure that we have. Trying to maintain strong academic departments, and we‟ll take the cuts and not change the structure. Central took 4 Peter Elich Edited Oral History Transcript – April 11, 2003 Campus History Collection © Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED the position that we‟re going to try to save everybody, and we‟re going to do this by farming out programs in the Seattle area, in the Yakima area, doing a lot of extended education, taking a lot of people offline, and let them work, on the money that can be generated from offline courses. So they sort of diluted their programs to some extent by spreading out and doing a lot of things at a lot of different places; adding a lot of programs. Western retained our basic structure. I think that was a very important decision on the part of Western, which enabled us to retain that strong academic focus and not try to be everything to everybody, but to focus upon the basic liberal arts and a few selected professional applied colleges and programs, that depended upon the philosophy and the content, and methodology of liberal arts and sciences as a basis. We had Education, and Business and Economics, and Huxley, and Fairhaven, and Fine and Performing Arts, which spun off from that but are all closely tied to the liberal arts and sciences, whereas Central became much more diffused. Going back to Ross now which is a later period, Ross‟ presidency was, I think, marked by, in addition to his approach to developing programs and the populist kind of approach; he was also a very strong representative of the University to the community and to the legislature. I‟ve been told by people from other institutions that he became one of the principal spokespersons for higher education before the legislature and legislative groups. He was very effective in representing higher education; very effective in representing the University to the community. He could talk to almost any kind of group, from the farmers out in the county, to fishermen on the docks, to the business people and education people as well, and I think provided in his own way, strong leadership, although many faculty did not like the more populist approach that he took. He unfortunately, as everybody knows, was killed along with Jeanene DeLille, Don Cole and the pilot of the plane in that tragic accident. I might have been on that plane, I had been with them on the same plane a couple of days earlier at another meeting, and I might have been on that plane as well except that Jeanene DeLille had found a fundraising training activity for deans in Washington D.C. All the deans were in Washington D.C. on the day the plane went down. We hustled back as soon as we learned they were missing. But we found out en route, as we could call each time we had to stop, that they had found the plane and there were no survivors. A great loss of three people who provided strong leadership to the university. Ken Mortimer was next. Mortimer had some clear ideas about what the university should be. He wanted to strengthen the basic liberal arts and sciences orientation, offer a very high quality education. I remember his saying on many occasions that he thought Western was already, and should be further recognized and further developed as, a quality liberal arts and science based institution as an alternative to the more expensive private institutions in the state; the Whitmans, and the PLUs and places of that sort. And he saw us in that light, and that was consistent, I think, with the faculty notion of what the University should be as well. And he supported increasing diversity of the student body. He also tried to strengthen the bonds with the community, and really got the Foundation moving, although the Foundation really began with Olscamp, and Ross moved it along a bit, it really took a significant step forward with Mortimer. I remember Mortimer calling the deans in one day and saying “We have to put a couple, three, four hundred thousand dollars into the Foundation if we want to make it go…if we really wanted to move. He outlined for us what he saw the advantages might be. But informing us that that was money that might otherwise go to us, we were in a reasonably good budget period at that time and after some discussion we unanimously supported putting that money into the Foundation, which enabled him to hire a new director and staff. The Foundation really moved from that point on. He put a lot of energy behind it, and the payoff in the long haul is going to be very strong as a result of that. Then of course the most recent president is Karen Morse, who has continued to work very hard to develop the Foundation, and had done an excellent job in continuing to raise resources for the University, from private, corporate and philanthropic donors as well as from the legislature. I think she has served the University well in her representation to the legislature and worked very hard in providing leadership to the University. I haven‟t agreed with some of her decisions, but that‟s to be expected, you‟re not going to agree with everything that other people do. I can‟t fault her for hard work and her sincere effort. She‟s an extremely nice person and I‟ve been fond of both her and her husband Joe, who unfortunately suffered a tragic stroke a few years ago. SI: I have a couple of people that I would like you to comment on, some of whom we have talked about… PE: Oh yes. 5 Peter Elich Edited Oral History Transcript – April 11, 2003 Campus History Collection © Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED SI: Chuck Harwood, who hired you to come in here, and then Chuck goes on to be the first Dean of Fairhaven, and dies tragically later. Could you talk a little bit about Chuck? His notions about education and what he was doing in Fairhaven? Even in psychology? PE: Chuck, I think, provided very strong leadership for the department of psychology. It grew rather significantly during the time that he was here. Not only in numbers of students and faculty, but also in terms of the quality of the program, the kind of people he hired. We had some excellent faculty that came on at that time. He was an extremely nice person to work with. He was a very friendly guy, and an excellent scholar and excellent teacher in his own right. I had some classes with him while I was doing a master's program here. I was actually a bit surprised when he took the Fairhaven job, but I think he provided the kind of leadership they needed there as well. His ability to work with any variety of people, and Fairhaven certainly had its variety of folks. My wife and I and family became close friends -- they had children about the same age as ours. We were in New York at the time that he was overcome by carbon monoxide on his boat. His wife Vonda survived, but was ill. Anyway, I thought Chuck was a very important person in the history of the University, and certainly a valued colleague and valued friend of mine. Another person who fits into that category, who I actually knew for a much longer period of time, was Sam Kelly. Sam and I began teaching, let‟s see now, he was at Bellingham High when I came to Bellingham High in 1956, and we taught there and got to know each other quite well. We were working on master‟s degrees at the same time at Western. He went to the University of Chicago and got a degree in higher education. I went to the University of Oregon. Then we both returned to Western. Sam was in education for a while then went over to Old Main, I never could quite figure out what his job was, but he did a lot of things. He had a few titles; one was director of the Center for Higher Education. He was also then the graduate dean, and I think for a while he was also the dean of research as well. But I think most importantly, he was a very valued advisor to the senior administration. He was a wise man, a very quick wit, and a very intelligent person -- he provided very effective council to the presidents and provosts and to me. I didn‟t mention this before, but I think it was between Bob Ross and Karen Morse; we had Al Froderberg as interim president of the University for a while. He was serving as the interim provost at the time of the tragedy and so he was moved into the presidency. And then later Larry DeLorme served as the interim president following Mortimer and during the search that resulted in hiring President Morse. Talbot left the provost position in 1983[?], he didn‟t work too well with Ross; they were of different styles, put it that way. Ross, the “good old boy” from the south, and his style was the “good old boy” approach. And Talbot with the Australian background, and had been working with Olscamp, and had a little different style. So they parted company. But I had high regard for Talbot and I relied upon Talbot and on Sam Kelly for council throughout my tenure as dean. A word or two about Froderberg; Froderberg was an outstanding department chair in the department of mathematics. I worked closely with him in my early years as dean and valued his contribution greatly. Ross was trying to select somebody to represent the university at the legislature. He called Sam and me in one day and he had a person in mind. He said he was inclined to hire this faculty member and both of us said “Oh God, no!” This person would not be the person you‟d want to send. “Well all right, who in the hell are we gonna select?” So I suggested that he talk to Al, even though I was reluctant to have Al assume that position. But I thought Al and he would get along well. Their personal styles, kind of casual in their approach, if you will, a sort of down home kind of approach. I thought Al had a respect for the faculty and would represent the faculty position strongly. He‟d been the President of the Senate and so on. So they struck it off right away. He put Al in that position, and Al represented us in the legislature for a number of years. A great loss to the academic side of the house, but a great plus I think to the University in general in terms of his representation at the legislature. Another person I should mention is Larry DeLorme, who was chair of the department of history, with whom I worked closely. I think probably among all the chairs the two that stood out in those early years especially, were Froderberg and DeLorme; very strong, and helped to shape some of the policies for the college which then really influenced some of the policies for the University as well. Then Larry went on to become the Provost, and I worked closely with him obviously in my role as dean. Then, unfortunately, he had a long period of illness and strong 6 Peter Elich Edited Oral History Transcript – April 11, 2003 Campus History Collection © Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED medication, and his overall performance declined, not as a function of any lack of ability or intent on his part, but I think just as a function of the illness and the medication that he was taking during that time. I think he had all the potential to continue to be a very strong academic leader for the University. Unfortunately he was not able to carry out his career as I‟m sure he was capable of doing. SI: During your time as dean was Joe Hashisaki still chair in mathematics, or had he passed away? PE: No, I think Hashisaki had left the chair before that. SI: Well Joe later dies. PE: Yes, Joe did. But I think first Al was chair at the time I became dean, I‟m quite sure. SI: Because Hashisaki had been hired by Jarrett to initially build that math department. PE: And he did a fine job. That was a very strong department. He did an excellent job, just as Don Easterbrook did a fine job in building an extremely strong department of geology. I think that approach that Jarrett used of going out and trying to bring in some of the top people he could possibly bring in as chairs, then give them some leeway to make decisions in hiring faculty and things of that sort. It was a very good approach. I had the opportunity to be involved in hiring some of the excellent chairs from outside; Rick Emerson for one, Ken Hoover, Jay Teachman. They‟re people who provide very strong leadership for their departments, and I‟m sure there are others who I am overlooking at this point that are equally strong. SI: One program that emerged in that time and sort of got lost was the nursing program. PE: Yes. SI: Did that begin during your time and then subsequently end during your time as well? PE: It was in the initial stages when I became dean. It was a program that was designed for people who already had RNs to get the baccalaureate degree part of their program if they had their RNs from the community colleges. For a variety of reasons it just didn‟t work very well. We could not maintain the enrollment in the program. I think it may be partly leadership, partly because the program was maybe a bit too rigorous or not flexible enough for people who were working as nurses. At any rate, it was a program that I was later instrumental in phasing out. Similarly the apparel design/fashion marketing program, that was a Seattle-based program, we developed that when Rosalie King came to head up the department. She was hired by Jim Davis just before I became dean. She headed the home economics program and she was instrumental in adding the apparel design/fashion marketing program in Seattle. Actually not doing too badly for its purpose, but not a good program for Western; not to have a program stuck out there like that. The students really didn‟t have any attachment to the University. SI: Is this a bit of an expression of the Bob Ross populist approach? PE: I think it is. I think that‟s a good illustration. And I think some of the students who had AA degrees from community colleges came there and took their upper division program in Seattle and many of them never set foot on Western‟s campus. There is actually another person who I didn‟t mention, Les Karlovitz, who was the provost for a brief time. Les was ill when he came here and didn‟t last very long. He died of cancer. I thought he had the potential to be a very strong provost. Sharp mind, brilliant guy, but he was agonized from the time he came. He‟d have those Saturday meetings with the deans, and God, he‟d come up, and he couldn‟t even wear regular clothes, he‟d come up in a sweat suit. He‟d walk around in pain from conducting a meeting, tenure promotion cases and things of that sort. I felt so sorry for him. SI: But not opposed to working you on Saturday! 7 Peter Elich Edited Oral History Transcript – April 11, 2003 Campus History Collection © Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED PE: But not opposed to working Saturday, yes. He was a hard driver, yes. He was a hard driver. I‟m not sure if I would have lasted as dean if he‟d stayed on as provost. His staying on and my leaving as dean might have been good for the University, I don‟t know! I probably stayed on two or three years longer than I should have. Well anyway, what I‟m doing now is, I had a post-retirement agreement when I left, essentially the same agreement that I had negotiated with forty or fifty faculty when I was dean, for people who had been here for a long time. Teach one quarter a year, you give up your tenure of course, and you don‟t have any benefits, but you teach one quarter a year for three years. And I had that arrangement. Then I had the opportunity to teach a fourth year at a markedly reduced salary, which I did this last year. Just got my teaching evaluations back and they‟re quite good, I‟m very proud of them. A little better than they were last year. I‟ve told the chair that if he needs somebody next winter, I‟d be available again, but don‟t take that as a request to teach, merely an indication of my availability. And if you‟ve got other people who want to teach and need to teach more than I do, hire them first. SI: One other person, Herb Taylor. PE: Herb Taylor, yes. Herb Taylor‟s a real legend at the University as one of the original “wiz kids,” you know, high IQ, Mensa, charismatic personality, dynamic lecturer. I used to occasionally sit in on his lectures just for the entertainment quality. Also I think he was extremely well-read and well-informed and knew a lot about his subject of anthropology. And was a strong leader in the University. As I mentioned earlier, he was one of the people who quickly supported Jarrett‟s efforts to change the nature of the University. He went on to become the dean for research, and did a lot to develop the research activity. Under Taylor‟s direction, that‟s probably when the emphasis upon research at the University really began to blossom. Not to make us a research institution, but to encourage faculty research. And I worked with him and had one of the first grants, actually the largest grant the university had ever gotten for research - $45, 000 - back in the „60s. Taylor was inclined also to call you at odd hours. I remember he called me Thanksgiving morning and said, “I‟m in my office, I‟ve been going your proposal for the grant,” or something, “and there are some significant changes that need to made. I want you up here right now.” And I said, “I‟m preparing dinner for my family!” “Well get up here, it won‟t take too long.” It was Thanksgiving morning. He wanted to talk really, mainly, and chatted a bit. He said, “I think you should maybe change this paragraph a little bit, put this part first and that part second.” A few things of that sort, nothing of any significance, you know. I think he wanted to let you know he was on top of things. I think if anybody had classes from him, they remember Herb Taylor. As well as people like Keith Murray. We have had many great teachers at Western. SI: Maybe if you would editorialize just slightly, but in the Ross period and then his death, and the death of Don Cole, and Jeanene DeLille, was in certain respects a watershed just because of the loss…I don‟t know if you could comment upon what that may have done, if anything, to the institution, but it might be an interesting insight? PE: Don Cole, whose loss I think, to the University, was much greater than most people realized. Cole worked very quietly in his role as vice president for business affairs; but did an extremely effective job in managing the financial resources of the University, with principle focus upon supporting the academic programs. It seemed as though Don could always find at the end of the biennium, a few dollars for the president to have to support this, that, and the other academic program. I think he probably represents one of the stronger people in that position in the University‟s experience. I came to value him very greatly. I think one of the things that happened following the tragic accident was that…we had a period of time, we‟ve talked about the Kelly/Froderberg/DeLorme people involved in … sort of the, I wouldn‟t call it confusion, but there wasn‟t much happening at that time -- people were sort of holding the fort until we got more permanent administration in place. I don‟t see that that had any really strongly negative effect upon the University in the long run because we had strong leadership following that when Mortimer came. But it was a period of time when we were just sort of treading water, I think. Not to in any way discredit the people who were in those positions, they did a good job of doing what they were doing, but they weren‟t there to provide leadership at that time. They were there to keep things running smoothly until we could get new leadership on board of a more permanent nature. 8 Peter Elich Edited Oral History Transcript – April 11, 2003 Campus History Collection © Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED SI: At that time, at least I have heard, I have no idea if it‟s true; Ross had, for example, a notion of a College of Engineering Technology, which did not fully develop because he was gone. But that was kind of a Bob Ross project that he kind of liked to move along in its own subtle ways. PE: That‟s right. That was certainly something which I think he was pushing forward. I recall one particular incident. I didn‟t mention Paul Ford, who was a Provost for a while under Ross, as well. We had a lot of provosts, and some of those I‟ve even forgot. I recall one day the Deans were in a meeting in Paul Ford‟s office. Paul announced that Bob Ross was advertising, (we had a position open for the chair of that department) for a director of the Division of Engineering Technology. And I said, “We don‟t have a Division of Engineering Technology, we have a department, and we don‟t need a director, we need a chair. And if you‟re going to create a division like that, that‟s normally something which would go through at least the faculty, Academic Coordinating Commission, Planning Council, things of that sort.” “Well,” he said, “here, take this,” he again showed me the announcement. “He‟s down in his office.” Well I got up, took this down to his [President Ross‟s] office, and asked if I could see him, and went in and shut the door. Ross was a guy you could argue with in private, but you never took it outside the room. You could cuss at him, and he‟d cuss at you, and sometimes you gained a point and sometimes you lost. So anyway, I said “God dammit, you can‟t do this.” [Ross], “What do you mean I can‟t do this?” [Elich], “You can‟t just go creating divisions and hiring directors. This is a department in the college I‟m administering.” “Well, what do you want me to do?” he said. [Elich], “What I want you to do is change that to what it‟s supposed to be, to a chair of a department.” [Ross] “Give me that piece of paper!” And he reached out and got a pencil and wetted it his tongue. And he crossed out “director”, and he wrote in “chair,” and he crossed out “division” and wrote in “department.” He says, “There, does that make you happy?” I said, “You‟re not going to change anything, are you?” “No, I‟m not.” He was encouraging us, during a period when the budget was reasonably good, for the Deans to squirrel away some money for a rainy day. So we were in a pretty good budget situation at that time. That was another function of Sam Kelly. Sam Kelly somehow, could take end of biennium money and hide it somewhere for two or three days then give it back to you. I think he usually took ten percent off the top or something too. So we had $250,000-$300,000 that we were saving as a reserve, that‟s what we called it. One day we got a notice that all these reserves were being recaptured centrally. I went over to see Ross and I said, “What are you doing? You told us to reserve this money, and now you just take it away!” And he said, “Well I need it.” I said, “Well we need it too! That‟s my money!” He says, “Listen, it‟s all my money!” That‟s his style. SI: He didn‟t hide it! Now he‟s being the good guy, bringing it back! PE: That was just his approach. “Hey, listen now, it‟s all my money.” 9 Peter Elich Edited Oral History Transcript – April 11, 2003 Campus History Collection © Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED I was very happy to have stayed at Western during nearly all of my career. I thoroughly enjoyed teaching and had the great pleasure and honor of being selected as Western‟s, “Outstanding Teacher Award” for „65-‟66, by the Associated Students of Western Washington State College. I treasure that, as well as the recognition from the Faculty Senate upon my retiring as dean, and being named Distinguished Service Professor Emeritus. But I thoroughly enjoyed teaching and I thoroughly enjoyed my contact with my colleagues, thoroughly enjoyed the position as dean, particularly the opportunity to work with department chairs and individual faculty to help them build stronger departments and hire stronger faculty. I think I was greatly influenced by an early workshop I went to for the National Council of the Colleges of Arts and Sciences, a dean‟s workshop; Bernard Kelly was retiring as Dean of the College of Arts and Sciences at the University of North Dakota, where he‟d been the dean for twenty years or so, and he announced that he could really sum this up very easily. He said, “You want to select the very best department chairman you possibly can. And then provide them all the support that you possibly can in hiring and developing the strongest faculty that you can. And your job is to facilitate the chair‟s job in building a strong department, in hiring strong faculty and supporting those faculty. Providing them the things they need in order to exercise their capabilities and talents.” And I always remembered that, and that‟s the way I tried to manage my affairs as dean, as a facilitator rather than a director. When big issues came up, I would call the department chairs together to get their collective wisdom because it was certainly stronger and much more effective than my individual position. I think that my greatest satisfaction came in working with the department chairs and faculty to help them develop as teacher-scholars, and help develop strong departments. I gained a lot of satisfaction in seeing departments develop and faculty and staff develop. I couldn‟t always do everything they wanted, but I always kept the role of the faculty central. The relationship between the faculty and the student is the principle area of focus for the university. END OF TAPE 10 Peter Elich Edited Oral History Transcript – April 11, 2003 Campus History Collection © Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED
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Title: Kwame Alexander interview
Date: 2015-10-21
Description: Kwame Alexander is a poet, educator, New York Times bestselling author of 21 books, and recipient of the 2015 Newbery Medal for his novel, The Crossover.
Digital Collection: PoetryCHaT Oral History Collection
Type of resource: text
Object custodian: Special Collections
Related Collection: PoetryCHaT Collection
Local Identifier: AlexanderKwame_20151021
Text preview (might not show all results): Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections PoetryCHaT Kwame Alexander ATTENTION: © Copyright Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. "Fair use" criteria
Show moreWestern Washington University Libraries Special Collections PoetryCHaT Kwame Alexander ATTENTION: © Copyright Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. "Fair use" criteria of Section 107 of the Copyright Act of 1976 must be followed. The following materials can be used for educational and other noncommercial purposes without the written permission of Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. These materials are not to be used for resale or commercial purposes without written authorization from Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. All materials cited must be attributed to Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. This interview was conducted with Kwame Alexander on October 21, 2015, in the Special Collections Conference Room, Western Libraries in Bellingham, Washington. The interviewers are Nancy Johnson and Sylvia Tag. ST: So we are here with Kwame Alexander, who is in Bellingham for several days for the Compass 2 Campus program, as well as lunch with Western students and high school students, and this evening is giving a community presentation. NJ: Sponsored by PoetryCHaT. KA: Welcome to Fresh Air, with Nancy and Sylvia, and Kwame Alexander. ST: If only I was as smart as Terry Gross. NJ: Yeah, really. ST: So, in the tradition that we’re trying to start with these oral histories, we’re hoping that you can talk freely, and we’ll see where it goes. And just kind of a free flow conversation opportunity for you to kind of riff on your own thought process, writing process, what you -NJ: History as a writer. ST: -- some of the insights you have about your own books, interactions, intersections. So we could start out with just some of this. We were just looking at some of the titles, and I was just noticing, myself, some of the interplay between the books. NJ: Are you even aware that you do that? Kwame Alexander Edited Transcript – October 21, 2015 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 1 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections KA: Yes, I’m certainly aware that the poems speak to each other and the books connect with each other. Some of it is intentional. Some of it is like when you get into this sort of rhythm, into this zone of the writing, it just -- it happens, you know. It’s sort of the writerly destiny of it all just takes over, and that’s really exciting. I don’t know how to sort of -- If I could bottle that, it would be wonderful. But I think most of it comes from BIC - Butt In Chair. Like the more you just sit down, and you’re writing, and you’re just living this writerly life, as Langston Hughes’s Jesse B. Semple character used to say, “Everything is connected.” And so the connections sort of find themselves. And it’s kind of cool, it’s exciting, especially when readers like yourself are able to pick up on that. The titles I think are really important to me. I remember my first play that I wrote. It was back in college, and it was a play called Self-Discovery 101: You Gotta Have It. And so, I was at Virginia Tech, and there weren’t a whole lot of black students there, and I really wanted to write a play to talk about what it means to be a black student on a predominantly white campus. And I stayed up all night. I’d never written a play before. I’d read plays, I’d acted in a few plays. I acted in a play on Broadway when I was 13. So at some point, I thought I was going to be an actor. But I was familiar with the theater enough to think that I could write a play. And so I stayed up all night and wrote a play, a two-act play. I remember calling my father about 7:00 in the morning and saying, I wrote a play last night. And I remember him being really excited and telling me, asking me, “What are you going to do with it?” I said, “I’m going to produce the play.” And so I started reading and researching how do you produce a play. And of course you need a director, you need a cast, you need a venue. And so naturally I didn’t have a whole lot of resources at my disposal, so I said, Well, I’ll direct it. I wrote it, I’ll direct it. I’ll get my friends who are in the theater department to act in it, and that was my cast. And then of course I had to find a venue. Well as it turns out, I had received a letter inviting me to a student leadership conference at the College of William and Mary, and that was taking place in about four months. And I said, How cool would that be? They’ve got to have entertainment there, so why not my play as the entertainment? And I’m a sophomore in college, and I remember calling up the director at the College of William and Mary of the student leadership conference and saying, “My name is Kwame Alexander. I’m a playwright at Virginia Tech, and I’d like to offer my play as your entertainment for your student leadership conference.” The sort of the audacity to do something like this is something I was raised with, that level of confidence, to think that the world is at your disposal. And something my father always tells me is that you have to behave and act like you belong in the room. If you don’t believe that you belong in the room, then people are going to notice and you’re not going to be sort of embraced, and there are going to be some opportunities that you’re going to miss. And so I’ve always believed that I belonged in the room, even times when I probably didn’t. But, Dr. Carol Hardy was her name, and she said, “Tell me more about this play.” I said, “It’s about student leadership.” I had all the buzz words. “It’s about black students and how they can, you know, sort of reach their destinies” -- And she said, “Well how much are you charging?” I hadn’t thought that far. I said the biggest number I could come up with. I’m a sophomore, I didn’t have any money, any food in the fridge. “What would be a good amount?” “A thousand dollars.” “Hmm, well, that’s too much.” “Can you do it for $500?” “Yes.” Kwame Alexander Edited Transcript – October 21, 2015 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 2 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections I talked to some friends and so I knew -- I’d written a play, so I knew the number of actors it was going to require, and it was nine. And here I was getting paid $500 for a play that was going to take place three hours, four -- five hours away from my school, and I had to get everyone there, and I had to pay everyone, got to have a place to stay. So I said, “Well, I can do $500, yes, but we’ll need hotel rooms.” She said, “I can give you two rooms.” I said, “Done. And, we’ll need to attend the conference for free.” This conference cost 300 to 400 bucks. And I’d been invited but none of the cast members, I knew, would have been invited. So she agreed to all that. I got my cast together, started rehearsing. The play happened on a Friday night, the opening night of the student leadership conference. It was the main attraction. And I’m 17 years old, I’m thinking, Okay, this is cool. I’m going be a theater minor. My minor was theater. And, the auditorium was 800 people filled. I mean it was exhilarating and it was like, Wow! It was Broadway to me. Like I knew I had arrived (laughter). And we -- the play happened. It went off exactly as we had rehearsed it. It couldn’t have been any better. That is not to say that it was very good, because I only knew so much about the theater. But within the constraints of what I thought was good, it was excellent, at the time. Standing ovation. And of course the students, who were my peers, didn’t know any better either. Standing ovation, the teachers, the professors. The administrator was like, Whoa, what just happened? So, me thinking on my feet, which is another thing that I’ve sort of been groomed to always do. When we were kids we’d be in a grocery store. My father didn’t cook until very later in life, but he shopped. So my sisters and I would be in the grocery store at the checkout line, and he would not let the cashier take an item and ring it up until we could tell him the cost, with the sale and the double coupons. Unless we could tell him what the price was, he wouldn’t let it go through. And this happened for every item. So you had to be able to think very quickly on your feet. And so I remember saying to myself, We’re about to do a question-and-answer. We can do a Q-and-A. And part of it was my ego, like wanting to savor the spotlight. And the standing ovation, and then I said, “Okay, we’re about to have a Q-and-A.” And the actors sat down on stage, and I stood up, and we started taking questions, and it was amazing, the energy in that room. And the whole time I’m answering questions, I’m thinking this is my life. This is what I want to do. I knew it in that moment. I wasn’t able to articulate that it was going to be some combination of writing and presenting, but that’s what I had just done. So I said, this energy, this spirit, this feeling right now, this is what I want to do in my life. And I just got paid $500. It’s a wrap. And so, the Q-and-A goes on for an hour, and it’s 10 o’clock, and people are -- you know, at these kind of conferences for students, Friday night is time to party. So kids, nobody’s like trying to get out of there to go party. They’re staying around asking questions. So one kid asked a question, she’s from Rutgers, and she says, “Kwame, have you thought about taking this play on tour?” And I, come on, I was barely in the room. I barely made it into the room. But my answer was, “Yes, we are doing a tour.” So as she’s saying that, thoughts are going through my head, How can this happen, how can this happen? And so I say, “Well, after everything’s over, tomorrow…” because I knew that my father, who was a book publisher, had a -- Another thing that I’d been able to negotiate was for my father to have a booth, and so he would sell books. So I said, “At booth number Kwame Alexander Edited Transcript – October 21, 2015 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 3 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections so-and-so, I’ll be giving out information on our tour.” So everybody’s like, Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I did something I probably shouldn’t have done. I said, the tour, “It costs $1000 for us to come to your school.” I should have never given the price out in front of 800 people, even though I was sort of married to it. But they clapped again. It was over. And we did an 8-city tour to Rutgers and Fisk and NYU... And it was sort of the first time that I was able to sort of understand that writing is, for me, is more than pen to paper. It has to be writing with sort of the goal of being able to share your words with the world in some profound way, and you now have the capacity to do it. So you don’t have to just write and it ends up in a drawer or under a mattress. You’re going to share your works with the world, and the degree to which you do that is only limited by your vision and your dreams. So you start -- we started with me talking about titles, and of course we ended in another place, in terms of this first experience where I knew I wanted to be a writer and live this writerly life, in all of its different aspects and capacities. But the title for that play was really not that good. I had borrowed it from a Spike Lee movie called She’s Gotta Have It, and so I said, Self-Discovery 101, You Gotta Have It. It seemed pretty cool. I guess the kids liked it. But from that point forward, my titles got progressively better, and so the next couple of titles...there was a title called Ebony Images, another play that I wrote, which was still okay, probably bad. But titles became very important to me. I really wanted titles that A reflected the subject matter of the book, but B, that sort of had a little bit of edgy and coolness to it, and so the titles got a little bit better over the years. I remember a really good friend of mine, my best friend, who was an actor in that first play. He’s always ribbing me about my titles. He’s like, Dude, you don’t know how to come up with titles. That used to be a really sore spot for me. We used to argue about that. And I think, you know, now he’s like a huge fan of my titles. So I think he really inspired me to sort of work on those titles. And so, when you think about - there was a play -- After Ebony Images, there was a play called 8 Minutes Till 9, which was bad, like what does that mean? The play was about a Muslim and a Christian who were twin brothers, and who were trying to figure out how to live in the same space when they had these sort of different, distinctly different, views on religion and the world and spirituality, and their mother. And so their mother -- And they hadn’t spoken in a while -- and their mother was in the hospital on her deathbed, and she died at 8 minutes till 9. Not a very good title. And then my first book of poems, Just Us: Poems and Counterpoems. What are counterpoems? I have no idea. And I think probably -- And then Tough Love: The Life and Death of Tupac Shakur. That’s kind of cliché. I think probably the transition into like really coming up with a title that was concise and represented the book and still had an edginess was the book Crush, and that was 10 years, 10-15 years into my writing. But I think that sort of when I hit my stride, if I can say that, Crush: Love Poems for Teenagers, I felt like it was really simple, it represented what the book was about. It had sort of an edginess to it. Just the word “crush” in and of itself has some energy. And from there I felt like it was on, with the titles. NJ: I am curious as you were just talking about that play, the 10 minutes to 9? KA: 8 Minutes Till 9. Kwame Alexander Edited Transcript – October 21, 2015 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 4 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections NJ: 8 Minutes Till 9, thank you. It really impressed me -KA: Yes, it’s just, it’s a horrible title. KA: Yes, 25 minutes past 11. NJ: Yes. And (The) Crossover, and twins, mother on a deathbed... Do you find you come back? And what do you come back to in different maybe iterations? KA: Wow. So that’s great, because we’re talking about the books talking to each other. And here’s this play that I wrote that has this direct link to this novel that I wrote, which was 20 years later. And so the thing I didn’t tell you about 8 Minutes Till 9 is that -- this was my third sort of, my third attempt at producing theater, okay. So after that first play had just wild success, as a 17 year-old, of course, I can do this. I can do this now. I will become a theater impresario. And so part of this whole idea of finding your rhythm and saying yes is that there are going to be failures. And I think that, the thing is, you got to be willing to deal with the failures. Like you’ve got to be willing to let those happen, embrace them, and learn from them. And that way you’re able to sort of find what’s possible. And so with 8 Minutes Till 9, it was my third attempt, I felt like I was in a rhythm, and it was now time for me to actually go to Broadway, like literally. NJ: Oh my gosh. KA: And so I found a theater in my home town, in Norfolk, Virginia. It’s called the Norfolk Center Theater, I believe, and I had 800 students in the first play, because the students had been registered for the conference from all around the country, so they were -- that was my audience. I didn’t have to market, just had to show up and do my piece. Well now I had to market to the Norfolk Center Theater, and I remember getting my scholarship money from school, I was now a junior, and I had leftover money. And I decided I’m going to use this money to produce my play. The theater sat 2,000 people. I’m going to do this. Everybody’s going to love this play. And there were 5 people in the audience. And I remember feeling like, or feeling a number of things. Two of the people were my parents. And I remember feeling like it was the end of the world, like it’s a wrap. I mean, just thinking about it right now makes me just want to, wow, it was devastating, because I had done everything I thought that I knew, everything that I thought I had to do in order to bring people out. And certainly a theater with 2,000 people in there and there are 5 people in the audience, there’s no way to sort of think positively about that, especially as a 19 year old, who thinks he wants to be a writer/director/producer. And so I was devastated. ST: So as part of the consequence of having the tremendous confidence and self-assuredness, when it doesn’t happen, it sounds like there’s some extremes going on. I mean, that’s a challenging way to move through the world I imagine. KA: Well again, it’s no way around that. You can’t, I don’t care how much confidence you have, you can’t rationalize there being 5 people in a theater of 2,000, in front of the people you care the most about, and the actors who you promised that this is going to be. And it was just, like you really just felt like you wanted to be in your mother’s arms. You wanted to just be away from the world. And it was Kwame Alexander Edited Transcript – October 21, 2015 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 5 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections the lowest -- it’s one of the lowest points in my writing career. And then the other thing happened, because you can’t take away confidence, 19 years of confidence being instilled in you by your parents and being reinforced daily. That doesn’t just end because you’re devastated. It takes a hit. It doesn’t go down though. And so we did the play. We did the entire play. And it was the hardest thing I’ve ever done. Of course I’m only 19, so how many hard things have I done? But when you start looking at the future, in terms of my writing career, it definitely laid a foundation for how I would move through the world, how I would deal with the nos, because that was the biggest no. It’s probably one of the top three biggest nos I’ve ever faced in terms of the rejection that I felt. But we did the play. We did the play. I don’t know how that 2 ½ hours -- I don’t remember how I made it through that 2 ½ hours, but it’s not, you know, we did. And when it was over and I got home, yes, I felt a whole lot better because I was out of that space, and I was able to look back on it, and I knew that I would never be in that position again. I would never be in that position again. I mean, I gave up my scholarship money for this, to produce this. I didn’t, obviously, I didn’t market it and promote it well. And so, yes, yes, yes. And so, to go back to your question and the idea when we look at The Crossover and we have similar sort of themes, in terms of twins, rivalry, parent, parental illness. I kind of I guess when I think back on it, I guess I feel like I never -- that story never got told. And so maybe I needed to be able to close that chapter in some way, and this was sort of a coming full circle. I don’t know, I’m speculating, but I think our subconscious acts in ways that we don’t necessarily know. So when you bring it up, maybe that had something to do with it. I needed to have some closure, because I always felt like it was a great idea. So I needed to circle back and deal with some of that. But oh, I get chills when I think about that theater. It was the hardest thing. But again I mean, we can’t have the yeses without the nos. You can’t have the mountains without the valleys. You just you can’t. The world doesn’t work like that. So, yes, 8 Minutes Till 9. NJ: Music. It’s everywhere, in your work. KA: Yes, the music. I told my parents that I don’t remember music being in our house. I don’t remember you all listening to music. You know, I remember gospel music because my father was a Baptist minister, and so I remember church, and I remember my father didn’t listen to secular music. So he never, I don’t have that recollection of him listening to music outside of church. I remember him trying to sing in the pulpit and sounding horrible. I remember that. I remember my mother humming songs and singing songs around the house, If you want to be happy for the rest of your life... I remember her singing, How much is the doggy in the window? I remember her singing songs like that around the house. I remember that a lot. So I remember those two things. And I remember, certainly, my sisters and I loving Michael Jackson and sort of going through our phases. And then I remember falling asleep at night listening to the oldies but goodies, every night. I had a little alarm clock radio, and so I’d fall asleep, Breaking up is hard to do. Now I know, I know that it’s true. Don’t say that this is the end. Instead of breaking up I wish that we were making up again. I beg... So I used to listen to these songs. Yes, I guess there was music in my house. There was a lot of music. I used to listen to those songs every night, loved the stories, loved the stories. Kwame Alexander Edited Transcript – October 21, 2015 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 6 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections But you know, the music in the books, I think, comes from a couple different places. Obviously it comes from that. But it comes from, I love writing while listening to music. The writing, it centers, it calms me, it inspires me, so I love listening to music, especially instrumental jazz music. The music has to be instrumental. I can’t have words when I’m writing. So I think the biggest thing in terms of why the music is so much a part of my life now, and therefore a part of my writing life, I was a sophomore in college and I’d come home, and again, the only music I ever heard my father embrace was gospel music, and I came home -- and this is a man who didn’t, he never said I loved you. I didn’t hear that. Like you knew he did, but you didn’t ever hear it. He wasn’t very emotive. But he was emotive when he fussed. But you didn’t really get the warm and fuzzy, Oh come here, son, give me a hug. That never happened, ever! So I remember coming home sophomore year and being in our attic. My grandmother used to say that I was a meddler. “Why is that boy always meddling in my stuff?” He’s in my closets and then, “What are you, Ed, come down!” She used to call me by my first name, Edward. “Edward, come downstairs and stop meddling up there.” I loved going in drawers and finding things and being under beds, and there was always little things that you could find, and it was just so cool to me to discover all these wonderful things that you knew had stories, had these sort of backgrounds, these histories...medals in your grandfather’s drawer, and fur coats, oh and fur hats. Oh, my favorite thing was papers, anything that was paper, because papers had things written on them. And whatever was written on them, you knew was going to be something that you didn’t know before. And so you got this sort of peek into these people’s lives who were your family. My grandmother used to say, “Why is he meddling?” And this is both of my grandmothers. My mother’s mother and my father’s mother, I did the same thing. My mother’s mother had an attic where her mother had lived, so it was a whole apartment up there. Oh my goodness! I found watches, encyclopedias, you know, can I say bras? I mean, I found everything, and it was all so exciting! And so, I come home sophomore year and I do what I always do. I’m in our attic, because growing up I’d never discovered everything that was in the attic, so it was always cool to go up there. So maybe I was up there looking for something from my high school days. Everything was in boxes. And I find two crates of records, and I started looking at the records, and the records are like Ella Fitzgerald, Live in Berlin; Duke Ellington; Ornette Coleman; Miles Davis, Sketches of Spain. And I’m like what is this? And I look at the top of each record, and in stencil, which is what these guys in the Air Force used to use to identify their records, it said, Property of The Big Al. And I’m like, That’s my dad. My dad’s nickname in the Air Force was The Big Al. My dad has a record, “I’ve Got You Under My Skin.” What is my dad doing with Billie Holiday and Bessie Smith? What is he doing with these? And then it hit me, My dad was a huge jazz fan. Anybody who loves jazz has to be okay. That’s when I sort of fell in love with my dad. That was the moment. I took those records back to college. I took them all back to college, bought a record player, and began to just fall in love with jazz music. And it has informed and influenced my writing ever since. And I guess in some way, it’s sort of me, reestablishing or reconnecting with my dad in a really profound way. ST: I don’t know if you could hear your dad while you were giving your Newberry speech, because you were up there, but -KA: I’ve been told. Kwame Alexander Edited Transcript – October 21, 2015 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 7 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ST: Oh you have. I loved it! It was -KA: It was church. ST: It was church, and it was -- it was church. He was so loving and so supportive and exhilarating about what was happening. KA: Yes, I think for them, for my mom and dad, the whole, you know, awards, the Newberry Medal in particular, it was -- it was validating for them in some way. Because when I got the call on February 2, at 7:16 a.m., I called him. He was the first person I called. And his response was, “We did it.” Which I was like, Dude, we didn’t do anything. But of course we did. Like I wouldn’t have been getting that call had he not done all that stuff that they did. And my father and I -- again, he wasn’t very emotive, so we didn’t -- We talked every couple months. We had conversations every now and then. It was cool. And as he’d gotten older, we talked a little bit more. But beginning February 2, we talked an hour a day, which is -- I mean, there are some days where I just, I can’t, I can’t do it tonight, Dad. I’ll have to call you tomorrow. But we talked an hour a day. And I think, what better way, what is more important for a parent than to see their child living a life that they have always hoped that they would be able to live. Maybe they didn’t articulate the specific, but that everything we put into you, we see it coming out and we’re very -- we feel good. We’ve done something. And you know, me fighting or me fussing because I have to read Roll of Thunder, Hear My Cry, and him not being able to understand. Why are you fussing? And me tearing... So there was this phase in my life where we lived in Brooklyn, and we lived in this awesome row house on President Street, between New York and Brooklyn Avenue. It was owned by this older woman who had first editions of quite a few books, Alexander Dumas. She had everything. And she left the books, and there were built-in shelves in every room. So I had a room with built-in shelves everywhere, and I hated it. Because I knew I was going to have to read these freakin’ books. And he made me read them. And so, when he traveled, I would rebel. This is not the kind of thing to share when you’re talking with librarians and English professors. It’s a part of my life. I would take books off the shelves and start tearing pages out. That was my way to rebel. I would only do it when he left town. I wasn’t crazy enough to do it when he was there. To come from that place -ST: And would you get rid of the pages, then, or would they -KA: I don’t remember. I’d tear a page out. I’d tear a page out and then throw the book. My mother would come in. We won’t say what she did, but I had to stop. That was sort of my way. So to come from that place to now be here, I think they’re just very thankful, and my mother said -- I remember my mother saying to my father, “Where did he come from? Where did this guy come from?” So I think they’re just very proud. I know they’re very proud. I’m really happy to have -- I feel like it’s good. It’s sort of my way of saying thank you for all the stuff I put them through as it related to literature. But they never, they never stopped. They never stopped, I mean, “We don’t care. If you don’t want to read, too bad you’re going to do it.” That thing never stopped. And so yes, he’s right, we did do it. Kwame Alexander Edited Transcript – October 21, 2015 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 8 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections NJ: Do you think work, know when something’s going to end up being a picture book or a novel or a collection of poems? Is that conscious? Does it happen organically? KA: Yes. It’s a good question. I have not always, I haven’t been -- Quite a few of my writer friends are very sort of, and I say this in the most respectful way, in the clouds. They’re inspired, and the muse comes, and that’s all good. And to a certain degree, yes, I have muses. But I am also very methodical about my approach to writing books. I’m going to sit down and I’m going to write a play tonight. That’s always been my mindset. I’m going to sit down, I’m going to write a picture book. This morning I was working on a picture book, looking out on this beautiful water and listening to the trains, and I’m going to write a picture book. So it’s very, it’s very planned. I mean, it’s very intentional. I know what genre it’s going to be. I’ve thought about it over and over in my head because there are -- before I can actually sit down to write, I have to know what genre. There’s not going to be any I don’t know, maybe this is something else. No, it is what it’s going to be. I have to know the title. I have to know that from the beginning. And I have to know the whole -- and I have to know the entire story. I have to know the beginning and the end. I don’t have to know the middle. But I have to know those three things. And so it becomes very -- it becomes less, let the muse sort of inspire me, let me find out what this is, and more of, alright, muse, you ready to do this? Let’s make it happen. This is what’s about to go down. NJ: Do you think the muse is percolating even though you’re not aware of it? KA: Yes. NJ: So by the time -KA: Yes, the muse is definitely -- yes. By the time I actually write, I’ve already started writing, and the muse has been working with me and inspiring me. So all that happens up there while I’m presenting, while I’m traveling around, walking my daughter to school, the muse is working. When I sit down to write, I’m taking all of that that I’ve gathered and culled together over the weeks, months, or years. It’s interesting because when I present to students or when I’m giving a keynote, it’s weird because two things are happening up there. Number one, I am present in the moment, which is why I try to make sure that I connect with students and get names. And it’s not just so that the students can feel connected. It’s so I can feel connected too. Because there’s another thing going on. I’m also actively at this simultaneously, I’m involved in this whole other process, and that process is -- I’m not even sure if this is something I should say. That’s the thing about this, in this age of Twitter, stuff ends up everywhere. ST: Nancy and I do not know how to Twitter. NJ: We don’t tweet. We do not tweet, so. KA: I’m being facetious. I’m being facetious. ST: I’m not. Kwame Alexander Edited Transcript – October 21, 2015 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 9 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections KA: My mind, my mind is in the moment and I’m trying to connect with you, but I’m also thinking about what I’m going to be doing over here. And over here could be, I heard four kids up there laughing and being rambunctious. Okay, at some point during this presentation, Kwame, you need to make your way up there, and you need to do that poem that’s on page 46 in Crush, because that poem is going to resonate with that boy, because you saw the way... So I’m having this whole other conversation as I’m connecting with this student over here. And I don’t know if that’s multitasking or literary schizophrenia, or whatever it is, but I have stopped trying to understand it and just do it. I don’t know, I don’t know how it happens, but I just do it. NJ: I think I mentioned to you at Singapore American School that that’s what I hope I get better at as a teacher. I mean, watching you yesterday, watching you at the Singapore American School, you are so present for the learners, the kids, whoever’s there, even the grownups, that we’re sure you’re -- It’s like when I go to a really good church service, it’s like, Oh, that sermon was for me. KA: Right. NJ: And that’s what I hope I can learn to do as a teacher so that when I leave they go, Oh yes, that lesson was for me. I needed that one. And you don’t even seem to think about it. I think it’s kind of who you are. KA: Yes. NJ: You’re saying, No, I’m not a teacher. You are a teacher at the core. KA: Well, yes, thank you. I tried teaching, I tried teaching. NJ: Well you’re still doing it. You just don’t do it with a certificate. KA: Yes, right. NJ: You don’t have a teaching certificate. You’re still teaching. KA: Right, right. NJ: I saw you with your daughter. KA: Right. NJ: I mean, you’re still teaching. KA: Yes. NJ: And in ways that sometimes we can’t get away with in a classroom. Cool, we’re lucky to have that happen. KA: Right. I remember Scott Riley, one of the teachers in Singapore. At the Singapore American School, he told me, it was like, “The kids are the curriculum.” And so, if you’re teaching the curriculum, you got Kwame Alexander Edited Transcript – October 21, 2015 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 10 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections to teach to the kids. And we forget that sometimes. And I think that one of the beauties of presenting with students, like the 5th graders at Western Washington, is that you get to -- it’s sort of like jazz. When you have a jam session, you have to be present in order to riff off of your bandmates. In order to follow along, in order to get in the groove, and you don’t know the kind of magic that’s going to come out of that, but you got to be willing to do that and discover it. And I think each time I go into a class or into an auditorium or what have you, I want -- it’s a jam session for me. We’re all involved, and I may have some ideas about what I’m going to do, and I’m also open to wherever this is going to take us, because there may be some teachable moments here. There may be some things that I’ll discover about myself. There may be some things that some student will discover about her or himself. And I think that’s really magical. But you got to be willing to have five people in the theater to do that, and that is not easy. ST: Thanks. KA: Thank you. NJ: You got two people in the theater. NJ: It’s easier. -KA: Yes. It’s good to be able to talk about it. A lot of this stuff I haven’t shared in a while, just remember. It’s good to remember that. ST: Yes. KA: Yes. ST: We have a few more months until the next announcement in January. I hope it carries, I hope it flows over. You’ve talked about this year as this platform that you’re honored to be on and to reach out, and I don’t see it ending, to be perfectly honest. NJ: I think you’re booked for the next two years anyway, right? KA: Yes. NJ: I think you’ve found the theater. I mean, it is really not gone. KA: Right. I think I was able to sort of merit all those things, right? NJ: This is your theater. That one was temporary. It was a placeholder. KA: Right. NJ: It’s a placeholder theater. KA: Yes. Kwame Alexander Edited Transcript – October 21, 2015 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 11 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections NJ: Right? I mean, this gig is not Broadway, but for you, you’re on a different Broadway. ST: Well it’s the trifecta that you were talking about of who you are, what you’re writing about, and the connection with the audience, that initial rush that you had from that first place. NJ: Yes. KA: Right. NJ: Sharing your words with the world. ST: And then here you are now -KA: Oh, you’re right. ST: -- in that same experience. It’s like it’s that whole spiral, cyclical thing going. And it’s like, wow, that does make a lot of sense. KA: You’re right. That’s exactly what it is. NJ: And so it’s no wonder it’s like it feels like you’ve come home when you do that. It feels right because it is right for you. KA: Right, right. NJ: Not for all of us -KA: Right. NJ: -- but it’s right for you. KA: Yes, yes. NJ: And that’s why the other people who have a muse that is different, that’s right for them. KA: Right, exactly, exactly. NJ: And that’s right for them. This is you, and to try to find that, we don’t always find it at 18 or 19. We’re looking. KA: Right. NJ: We’re meddling. KA: Right, right. NJ: Right? Yes. So you kind of hope that there is that place. And it’s just lovely when you know. I mean when you know it, it’s like, I am so lucky. Kwame Alexander Edited Transcript – October 21, 2015 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 12 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections KA: Right, exactly. I was telling Sylvia, I wake up every morning, I just laugh. It’s like, “No way, really?” NJ: Really, seriously, right? Hey, Dad, I am going to talk to you for an hour because really? KA: Right. ST: Well, that’s a good place to end. NJ: But you wouldn’t have known that when you had five people in your audience. ST: But you knew it when you had that previous feeling. It was the feeling to repeat. NJ: Yes, yes. Thank you. Kwame Alexander Edited Transcript – October 21, 2015 Children & Teen Poetry Collection (PoetryCHaT) 13 ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections
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Title: Skagit Delta Environmental Association letter
Date: 1988-03-04
Description: A letter from the Skagit Delta Environmental Association about the update on Fishtown.
Digital Collection: Fishtown Collection
Type of resource: text
Object custodian: Special Collections
Related Collection: Fishtown Collection
Local Identifier: Fishtown0083

Title: Fishtown and the Skagit River Exhibit Card
Date: 2010-06
Digital Collection: Fishtown Collection
Type of resource: text
Object custodian: Special Collections
Related Collection: Fishtown Collection
Local Identifier: Fishtown0096

Title: Barbara (Welsh) McCollum interview--February 16, 2006
Description: Barbara (Welsh) McCollum attended the Campus School, 1938-1947.
Digital Collection: Special Collections Oral History Program
Type of resource: text
Object custodian: Special Collections
Related Collection: Special Collections Oral History Program
Local Identifier: SCOHP_McCollumBarbara_20060216
Text preview (might not show all results): Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections Oral History Program Barbara Welsh McCollum ATTENTION: © Copyright Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. "Fair u
Show moreWestern Washington University Libraries Special Collections Oral History Program Barbara Welsh McCollum ATTENTION: © Copyright Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. "Fair use" criteria of Section 107 of the Copyright Act of 1976 must be followed. The following materials can be used for educational and other noncommercial purposes without the written permission of Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. These materials are not to be used for resale or commercial purposes without written authorization from Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. All materials cited must be attributed to Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. This interview was conducted with Barbara Welsh McCollum on February 16 th, 2006, at her home in Bellingham, Washington. Her husband Richard McCollum is also present and makes some comments. The interviewer is Tamara Belts. TB: Today is February 16th, 2006 and I am here with Barbara Welsh McCollum. She was a Campus School student. We are going to go through the Campus School Questionnaire and add in some extra stories, too. Our first question is how did you happen to attend the Campus School? BM: I think it was because we lived in the area, period. My brothers… TB: Your brothers had already went there? BM: Yes. TB: That‟s actually our next question. Did anyone else in your family attend the school and what were their names? BM: My twin brother Bill Welsh, my brothers Bob Welsh and Barney Welsh and [sister] Joan Welsh. TB: What were the years and grades of your attendance? BM: I don‟t remember. TB: I think you must have come in the fall of 1938 [Kindergarten] and graduated in 1947 [ninth grade]. BM: Good. Yes, yes. TB: We‟ll double check that but I think for other people in your class that seemed to be when they were there. BM: I‟m only forty seven, how did it work out [laughter]? Go on. TB: That‟s true, that‟s true. Did your family pay any fees, do you know, to attend the Campus School? BM: I have no idea. TB: We don‟t think that they did. Where did you live when you attended the Campus School? BM: On 17th Street. TB: Okay. How did you get to and from school? 1 Barbara McCollum Edited Transcript – February 16th, 2006 Campus School Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED BM: Well, when we first started going to school, we had a chauffeur and his name was Gunther and he would drive us to school. We would pick up Dan and Chuck Olsen at the corner and go to school that way. Mother would [also sometimes] drive us to school, or [we took] the bus, or we walked. TB: Okay. So you really did go to school in a limousine! I heard that. BM: Yes. TB: That‟s wonderful. And/or your mother took you. BM: Mother would take us to school but she wouldn‟t be dressed. She would have her bathrobe on and [once] she ran out of gas so she learned to get dressed because she had to get help to get home! TB: Oh no! Please share any favorite memories of this experience (walking to and from school). You also talked about walking across the hill. BM: I remember on the bus now getting off then you had to walk up those stairs. They were steep stairs all the way up then across, then you had a road guard gal, then you had Old Main, then you went to Campus School. It was those stairs that were so difficult to go up. TB: Were they then in front of the library? Or were they off of Garden? BM: Off of Garden; really straight up. I remember Gene Geske played the saxophone or some instrument and she could barely get up the stairs! But the road guards, it was either adults and then later on you could be in eighth or ninth grade out there, the people crossing the street. TB: Okay. What did you do for lunch? BM: I think in the beginning it was soup, (I was trying to remember this) soup, something, and ice cream. We used to bring our lunch, but Don Turcotte, he was always the one who ate their lunch there. I remember that because he used to get a funny face. When we were older then we were over at the cafeteria at Edens Hall. That‟s where that picture was. TB: Okay. I‟ve definitely heard of Edens Hall by the time you were in junior high. I think there was a lunch cart when you were in the new school. BM: Yes, they would bring it up; soup, milk and ice cream. That was what the teacher would say, “Soup, milk and ice cream.” And Don Turcotte always ordered that, but we had sandwiches so we didn‟t have to fool with that. TB: Nice. Do you remember any favorite classmates? Please name them for us and tell us some stories about them. BM: Well, since there were four Barbara‟s, we went by our last names. Susan lived up on 17 th Street. She was my favorite friend. Gene Geske lived on 17th Street and her sister Robin went to Campus School. I don‟t know if we‟re talking about where everybody lived. TB: Right now, first, just remembering your favorite classmates. BM: Oh, they all were, from time to time. TB: But you had some stories about each one of them. You actually went by „Welsh‟? BM: I was “Welshie.” TB: Welshie, okay. What was Barbara Albers called? 2 Barbara McCollum Edited Transcript – February 16th, 2006 Campus School Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED BM: Albers; and Lindy and Dorsey. TB: That‟s great. BM: I don‟t know how to explain it. We had gangs. It was separate groups. I was fortunate enough to be able to be in both of them because Gene Geske and I and Bea Nelson, we used to walk the railroad tracks. In those days you could walk from 17th Street clear down. We would pack a lunch and walk the railroad tracks and eat lunch and whatever. The other girls wouldn‟t do that but Gene and [Bea and I] would do this all the time. We were camper-outers and we used to scare the Boy Scouts because there on 18th Street they would have all their things up there and Gene and I were troopers. We could hide and we watched them and scared them! We were outdoorsy. But I got to [be part of both groups] because [I also] went to dance school and all [that] sort of stuff so I was a part of both „crowds‟ I guess you would call them, not gangs. Rosemary Rykken, then, was the head of the crowd. If Rosemary walked backwards, so did Albers. It was gang things. TB: So was the dance school part of Campus School, or was that something you did after school? BM: It was after school. In fact, I made my debut at the American Theater which became Penney‟s. I didn‟t know that they showed a movie first and then we danced. We got on stage, curtsied and walked off, you know. Everyone took dancing lessons; or piano lessons, too. TB: Why don‟t you tell us a little bit about your brother? BM: Bill? TB: Yes. What was it like being twins in school, in that class? BM: Well, I think that was pretty good. We didn‟t have that many problems. It was in high school that Bill used to rat on me at dinner time. [The school] alphabetized everybody, so they switched it so Bill and I didn‟t have to be in the same classes. So he couldn‟t tell if I was a slow reader or I did this or whatever. Bill and I did very well in school because Bill had his friends. TB: Alright. So who were your favorite or most influential teachers? BM: I think all of them. Miss Nicol; I‟m trying to think. Lucille Barron, who died, taught. TB: Oh, really? You had her for [Home Economics]? BM: Yes. Susan Jones and I flunked sewing. We did not do sleeves well and aprons. I remember Susan and I weren‟t very good at that. Lucille was a very, very pleasant gal. TB: Wow. So that must have been in the junior high? BM: Yes. They taught us all about vitamins and what [they] meant. I thought we would be learning to cook. We did, it was the first time I ever cooked carrots. We didn‟t like…I can‟t think of her name. Cunningham? What Rosemary did when making custard, instead of using sugar, she put in salt! Miss Countryman, maybe it was Miss Countryman, [she] took it home. She lied when she came back and said everything tasted so lovely, but we knew what Rosemary and Albers did! That‟s what was so priceless about Campus School. You learned to write. You learned about food. Mrs. Button is the one that gets the „A,‟ teaching us music. We had desks (this is in the new school) where you put your head down and she would tell you about it and then play Peter and the Wolf. She gave us all, people who weren‟t aware of music, (my mother had been an opera singer, but the other kids) they heard about that and then appreciated music. She was excellent. Her mother was Mrs. Deerwester-Darling. TB: Oh! That‟s right! That has come up before. Oh, I know, because of Ned Button! 3 Barbara McCollum Edited Transcript – February 16th, 2006 Campus School Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED BM: Yes. TB: Do you remember any of your student teachers? BM: The only one I can remember because of Sarah Rankin, in the ninth grade, Mr. [Ludwick]. We called him „Luddy.‟ These are guys that after World War II came home. That‟s the only one I can think of. I can visualize but I don‟t remember their names or anything except „Luddy,‟ [Ludwick]. TB: What were your favorite subjects or classroom activities? BM: Well it was drawing, art. I loved music. I don‟t know, just about generally everything. TB: How about woodworking? BM: I did that in the sixth grade because I wanted to be with the boys again, so I got to make a menu thing. TB: And the girls did do that a lot, didn‟t they? And the boys did cooking too, didn‟t they? I mean, I shouldn‟t lead you, but I‟ve kind of heard it was kind of unusual because boys and girls both did what was not always [traditional for them]. BM: Yes. Miss Gragg taught us writing, the round of the „o‟ and all this sort of stuff. What I thought was so much fun, again, sitting in the third grade on the floor and – God rest his soul – Pete Onkels used to get up to the blackboard and make huge letters and be silly. TB: Tell me about that. If you guys didn‟t really have desks, how did you write? Or how did you do homework? BM: I‟m sure we must have had desks. I know in the first grade we did. Maybe it was just certain times that we sat on the floor. TB: Okay. BM: Yes, because art, we were at tables. TB: Any more thoughts about the handwriting? A lot of people have commented about distinctive Campus School handwriting. Did you learn to do cursive or was it just printing? BM: Cursive and printing. But then when you got older you weren‟t making your „e‟s this way, you were doing backward threes, being very sophisticated you know. Now my grandkids, their writing is terrible; you can barely read it, whereas Miss Gragg was right there with you. Either big lines on a page then there‟s lines and do it that way, or larger or whatever she did. So she made you think about what you were doing. She was very good. God rest her soul. TB: What kind of learning materials did you use mostly? Did you have regular school textbooks or materials created by your teachers? BM: I don‟t remember. I don‟t think we carried too much to school. I think it was supplied. I don‟t remember having homework. Maybe Margaret will tell you. Maybe we did later in the eighth or ninth. We did dissect. In the seventh grade or eighth, I don‟t remember his name, but we dissected animals. TB: Oh wow. What did you think about that? BM: It smelled. I remember that. I can see him, I can‟t recognize his name, but that was biology. So we learned that. 4 Barbara McCollum Edited Transcript – February 16th, 2006 Campus School Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED TB: What kind of grading system was in use during your attendance? Did you have letter grades or narrative reports? BM: Letter. TB: Do you especially remember any creative activities such as weaving or making things? BM: No. One thing that I‟m very proud of at Campus School was that they did honor Thanksgiving. Over in the Old Main auditorium there, all the classes would get there and they would have kind of a show. The ninth graders got to come in and hold bananas and we would all sing, Come Be Thankful, People Come. TB: Nice. BM: It was a celebration of Thanksgiving. When we were little, the May Day, the May Pole, the girls would dance around that. TB: Wow. Now where was the May Pole located? BM: In my mind I‟ve got it right in front of the Campus School building, the new one, right out front. Maybe they were still doing the rocks, I don‟t know. We celebrated all these things. TB: Let‟s talk a little bit about that. You mentioned it before we turned on the tape about the rocks when they were building the new school. BM: Yes. It was a long length of grass but then they needed help to get all the rocks and pebbles and put them in containers. Another thing that was so great is that we couldn‟t wait for bad weather because then the sawdust truck couldn‟t make it. The schools used sawdust. TB: Instead of salt, then? What was sawdust used for? BM: For the furnace, for heat. TB: Oh! BM: So when the weather was bad, then we could get out of school because the sawdust truck couldn‟t make it up. So we were always hoping that the saw dust truck couldn‟t make it because it wasn‟t coal, it was sawdust then. TB: So did you get fresh sawdust almost every day or just like once or twice a week? BM: I don‟t remember. TB: And that was probably still when you were in Old Main, is that right? BM: Yes. TB: Oh! That‟s cool. BM: I think we had sawdust at the house and Darrell Crait, who lived next door to us, they had sawdust and we were always anxious to see if they could make it up the hill when we were in snow. We used to have more snow than we do now. TB: Right. Wow. That could be important though at home, too. The sawdust truck might not get home and then it would be cold. 5 Barbara McCollum Edited Transcript – February 16th, 2006 Campus School Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED BM: It‟s not a garage but you open up something by the house and then they dump the sawdust down there. It was bins or something. You‟re making my mind work here! TB: What was it like to be observed so often by student teachers? BM: I don‟t remember it being a problem. TB: Did you ever go to summer school at the Campus School? BM: Yes. I had to go because I was lousy in math. I had to go to summer school once and I wasn‟t happy because the weather was too nice. TB: Do you at all remember how they taught you math? Other people have had problems with math that were in the Campus School. BM: Well we had [multiplication tables] you could look at, „Seven times six is forty two,‟ so you would try and memorize those. I don‟t think I was very good at math. TB: What out of classroom activities did you enjoy the most or did you engage in? BM: Well, it was always a lot of PE things. I don‟t remember doing anything out of school. I had dance classes to go to. What was so fabulous was that we learned to play volleyball, we learned to play basketball and all that at the very beginning. They taught you teamwork. TB: What out of classroom activities did you engage in? What did you do at recess, lunchtime, what did you enjoy the most and what games did you play? BM: When we were in the seventh or eighth or ninth, after lunch we went into a room and danced. You learned to dance with girls so it helped you learn to dance and be good at it. We had field trips, I remember that. Identify trees and birds, and that was because we could go from Campus School right up on 18 th Street and it was all woods. We had cards that showed you the birds and we tried to look for them. So again, what Campus School did was open all these eyes so you could see more than paperwork; and clouds in ninth grade. Because Mr. Ludwick had been in the military, they told us about clouds. Every time when there‟s a pattern then I know it‟s a cirrus cloud but don‟t ask me anything else! We had to memorize the different cloud patterns. TB: Nice. Do you think on some of those walks, I‟m going to call it the „nature walk,‟ but whatever, was that often something that student teachers took you on do you remember or was it your regular teacher? BM: You got me. I would probably think it would be student teacher, not teacher, because they were a little older. How old were our teachers? In their thirties and we thought they were old! I don‟t know how old Miss Kinsman was. TB: Any other thoughts about what you usually did at recess? BM: The boys played basketball or something and we jabber-jawed or danced. That was [when we were] older. I don‟t remember [before that]. TB: Did you visit the college itself very much or attend assemblies or sporting events that were at the college part? BM: We went to concerts there or plays. I remember that. But I don‟t think we went to sporting things. TB: At what grade level did you enter public school and why did you transfer and what was the transition like for you? 6 Barbara McCollum Edited Transcript – February 16th, 2006 Campus School Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED BM: When I left Campus School [I] went to Bellingham High School. What you did, you would go down to Adam‟s Style Shop and get a cashmere sweater so you would wear that to school the first day. What was so great was the other high schools getting together so those crowds, this crowd and then Campus School, we all got together and we would go to the Mt. Baker Theater to the movies and we would sit together. When we go to concerts I think, we were all down there! Fairhaven High School, a lot of the kids lived on 14th Street or whatever, so they got to be good friends because of location. TB: So you didn‟t find it difficult to transition to public school? BM: No, I didn‟t have a problem with that at all. I ended up going to Helen Bush in my senior year because I got tired of the same routine sort of stuff. I talked to my brother Barney. He said, “I’ll help you out. Think this through.” So I did. I went to Helen Bush for my senior year, so I don‟t have an annual. TB: Now where was that, down in Seattle? BM: Seattle. TB: It was a private school down there? BM: Yes, a girls‟ school. TB: Why did your brother Bill leave the Campus School a year before you? BM: I think he got tired of it. Actually I think at Whatcom High School he had more fun. Dick was there, and all the guys. I have no idea. TB: Please share any specific differences that you saw between public school and Campus School that especially affected you. BM: Homework, I think! You say that and the first thing that comes to my mind is Miss Martin‟s Latin class. We had Latin class just before lunch and then after so we would go and then bring food back for her so we could shorten the class and learning [Latin phrase]. I think it was just more routine. Was it forty five minutes a class? TB: Probably. BM: Something like that. My brother Bob and Barney and Tom, Dick‟s brother, they used to do funny things. They let a cow go through Bellingham High School. I can‟t remember what else they did. I didn‟t want Mr. Emery to know my name because he remembered Bob and Barney! It was during the war era. TB: What further education did you pursue (college, graduate or professional school)? BM: I went to Stephens College in Missouri for two years. TB: So you didn‟t attend Western and major in education. BM: No. It‟s so funny because at Stephens with two years there I could teach preschool children if I was in Columbia, Missouri area, in the south. Coming here, I remember talking to Dorothy Button, she said no way after two years. You couldn‟t even walk in a door. So I didn‟t, and then when I married Dick and we were in Springfield, Virginia and the kids were older and we needed more money, I taught nursery school; two- and three-year-olds. TB: How did you happen to decide to go to Stephens, or go to Missouri? BM: What‟s the other girls‟ school in Colorado? There was another one. I have no idea. Susan Jones. Susan and I went to Stephens. 7 Barbara McCollum Edited Transcript – February 16th, 2006 Campus School Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED TB: Are you still in touch with any Campus School classmates? And if so, could you help us contact any of them? BM: Sure. Gene Geske. I talked to her just the other day. TB: Excellent! BM: She‟s in Sun City. Susan Jones is down south a little bit, Seattle. Have you talked to Barbara (Lindy) Holmes? TB: I think I have her address. But I know I don‟t know anything about Gene Geske. BM: She wasn‟t very, quote, “smart,” just about like me, but she ended up becoming very smart and she was an artist. She draws things. And she turned deeply religious. She married her husband and they were missionaries in Germany. She‟s the one that we scared the Boy Scouts! Don‟t forget that! TB: Wow! BM: Let‟s see, who else do I talk to? Sara I haven‟t talked to her in a long time. “Lindy” I saw the other day. It‟s so funny, you could live in Bellingham all your life and never run into anybody that you know! TB: I would think that some of you guys would. BM: The guy you said a few minutes ago, Larry Olsen, Dick sees him. Well, you‟ll be at Haggen and run into somebody. The thing is, at Dick‟s class reunion, God love them, they put the picture on the back so when you look at the front you know who are they are because people have changed their looks! TB: That‟s true. BM: My first boyfriend was Phil Clarkson. He lived in Happy Valley. Do you know where Happy Valley is? TB: Yes. I think he‟s another one we don‟t know where he is. BM: I don‟t know if he‟s alive. The other one I was madly in love with was Norman Bemis. He passed away. TB: What happened to Dick Wahl? BM: He died maybe ten years ago or something. You should call Gene Geske‟s sister because she is married to Terry Wahl. TB: Oh, okay, I know he was a news broadcaster or something, right? BM: Yes. TB: I heard about him in another context but I didn‟t realize he was in your class. BM: I see Brian every now and again. He was with the downtown business. TB: Do you know where Ken Wherry is? BM: Yes, he is down in the Seattle area. We saw him I think last summer. He came up and we went out at the Marina. He used to be one of Bill‟s best friends and he was a Sigma Nu with Dick at the University of Washington. 8 Barbara McCollum Edited Transcript – February 16th, 2006 Campus School Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED TB: I don‟t know anything about Phil Clarkson, Darrell Crait, do you know where he is? BM: No. I don‟t even think he went to Bellingham High School. TB: And Barbara Dorsey? Do you know where she is at? BM: No, I don‟t know. She was also in a religious missionary thing. It‟s got to be ten years since I have heard from Dorsey. TB: But she did go onto Bellingham High? BM: Yes. TB: What about Joanne Holcomb? You don‟t have her on your list. She was in your class in sixth grade. BM: I have no idea. I will probably wake up in the middle of the night, “Joanne Holcomb!” TB: It must have been Jack, when I first saw „Jackie Longstreth‟ I was thinking of a girl, but it‟s probably a boy, right? Jack. BM: Yes. Longstreth. TB: I know his dad was a doctor because that was my Grandpa‟s doctor I bet. BM: All I can think of was we didn‟t like him or we did tricks on him, I remember that. Here‟s one about the war. We‟d go trick-or-treat, Susan and I, on 17th Street and we‟d do 15th and all that sort of stuff. A woman we went to trick-or-treat, she said, “Don’t you realize there’s a war going on?” TB: Oh! And just didn‟t think it was appropriate then to be doing that? BM: Yes. End of Side One. TB: We had a Richard Peters and you‟ve got him as Dick Peters. BM: Yes. TB: Do you know what happened to him? BM: No. The story about him was he was – on what day are you born that‟s [in] Leap Year? So he was never old, he was always younger! So we joked with him. He lived where old Saint Joe‟s is, he lived on that corner right there. TB: Oh, okay; Tom Slipper? BM: Oh, yes, you say that and I know where he lived, right on Garden Street. TB: We have a Carol Ann Stuart and Donald Turcotte. Do you know anything about what happened to him? Did they all go on to Bellingham High School? BM: Yes. TB: What class would that be then? What was your graduating class from Bellingham High School? 9 Barbara McCollum Edited Transcript – February 16th, 2006 Campus School Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED BM: Remember, I didn‟t graduate. TB: Well, so it would have been 1950. RM: 1950. TB: Would you be willing to serve as a contact person for your class for the purpose of encouraging participation in the reunion that they are going to have in 2007? BM: Sure. I would love to because my cousins would love to come; Pat Templin and Judy Templin both went to Campus School. TB: Okay, I think I have heard that name before but I want to make sure I get that from you before I go. Do you have any Campus School memorabilia, including photographs, class publications, crafts, artwork, etc. that you would be willing to let us borrow for the exhibit? BM: Sure and I‟ll get you one right now because I found this and I don‟t know, I think this it was 1947 (referring to photograph). TB: Please share any favorite memories of your Campus School days and then areas not covered by the questions above that you might want to talk about. One thing might be World War II and what it was like to be in school during World War II. BM: Other than my telling you that we had to practice in case there was an air raid, I remember that. Not at school, but the windows all had to be covered at home. Mr. Wahl was the area warden. Mother worked at the Filter Center down there, all the soldiers were there, plotting airplanes and things. Our house, in case Saint Joe‟s burnt down, ours was [designated] a hospital, our basement. It was huge. All the supplies were downstairs, the beds and gauze and all that sort of stuff so that if there had been something there, our house would have been the hospital. TB: Wow. So your mother had a job during the War, then? BM: At the Filter Center and Red Cross. TB: Okay, wow. BM: Everybody was busy. My aunt Doris, my Mother‟s sister, worked at where the Bon Marché used to be. Boeing had a plant there. TB: Really? Boeing was in Bellingham? BM: Well a plant, yes. She worked there. We used to have all these ships come in; submarines and others. TB: A busy time. BM: Yes. That has nothing to do with Campus School. TB: Well no, but Bellingham. Anything else I haven‟t asked you that you would like to talk about? BM: I think we‟re fine. I‟ll get you those addresses. I‟ve got Ken Wherry‟s. TB: Excellent. I will say thank you very much. BM: On behalf of a grateful nation, yes. 10 Barbara McCollum Edited Transcript – February 16th, 2006 Campus School Memories Project ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED
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Title: Fishtown and the Skagit River Exhibition Checklist
Date: 2010-07
Description: The exhibition checklist used for the Museum of Northwest Art's exhibition on Fishtown. Checklist was inside the book "Fishtown and the Skagit River".
Digital Collection: Fishtown Collection
Type of resource: text
Object custodian: Special Collections
Related Collection: Fishtown Collection
Local Identifier: Fishtown0108

Title: Bill and Audrey Nelson interview--May 7, 2007
Date: 2007-05-07
Description: Well-known fly fisherman and guide, one of the "fathers" of the Federation of Fly Fishers.
Digital Collection: Fly Fishing Oral Histories
Type of resource: text
Object custodian: Special Collections
Related Collection: Fly Fishing Oral History Program
Local Identifier: FFOH_NelsonBill_Audrey_20070507
Text preview (might not show all results): Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections Fly Fishing Oral History Program Audrey Nelson ATTENTION: © Copyright Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. "Fai
Show moreWestern Washington University Libraries Special Collections Fly Fishing Oral History Program Audrey Nelson ATTENTION: © Copyright Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. "Fair use" criteria of Section 107 of the Copyright Act of 1976 must be followed. The following materials can be used for educational and other noncommercial purposes without the written permission of Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. These materials are not to be used for resale or commercial purposes without written authorization from Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. All materials cited must be attributed to Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections. This interview was conducted with Bill and Audrey Nelson on May 7, 2007, at their home, in Eugene, Oregon. The interviewer was Tamara Belts. TB: Today is Monday, May 7th, 2007 and I am here with Bill Nelson, and his wife Audrey. We’re going to do an oral history. He did just sign the Informed Consent Agreement. Our first question is: How did you get started fly fishing? BN: My father was a fisherman and he dallied with the fly fishing system. When I got into high school, one of the shop teachers was a fly fisherman and helped me build a vice, that’s when I started tying flies. Then as time went on, my father would take me up and drop me off on a stream on his way to work, and then picked me back up again after work in the evening as I came down the river. TB: Now which river are you talking about? BN: Stillaguamish, and also, the Skykomish, because it was close and had good fish. TB: Pilchuck? BN: Yes, I fished the Pilchuck once in a while and the Snohomish. There were fish in the Snohomish that you could take on a fly. But that’s about it. I didn’t journey to a lot of places when I was still a youngster. Fishing was good in those days. TB: Now what was that shop teacher’s name? BN: His last name was Jones, first name Casey -- Casey Jones. TB: Where did your father work? BN: He had his own business for a while; he was in the tire business, Nelson Tire and Recapping. TB: So he traveled? That’s why he could drop you off at the rivers and you would fish down? BN: Well, no, he’d just drive up there, drop me off and then go back to go to work, and when he was through work, he’d come up and pick me up. Usually, on those forays we’d be fairly close to town anyway, on one of the rivers. Pigeon Creek was another one, Rock Creek; there are others that I just can’t recall all at once. We would pick out a stream and a time and place for him to pick me up. TB: So what was it about fly fishing that attracted you? 1 Bill and Audrey Nelson Edited Transcript – May 7, 2007 Fly Fishing Collection ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED BN: Well, mostly to be able to do it. We did a lot of things that were near to where my folks lived on Puget Sound, right on the beach practically. Just out of the Indian Reservation, they were down on the beach. It’s called Tulare Beach and I’d go out and fish in the salt chuck, trying to catch fish. I was tying flies when the war got going and I was still too young to enlist in the service. I sold quite a few flies to Sears, the local Sears store, and they liked them. I got, I think it was twenty cents each for those flies that I tied. Then they sold them, I forget what they sold them for and I didn’t want to look. We had a zoo there and I would go up to the zoo when I was short of feathers of some kind. I’d take some peanuts with me and I could get a peacock to come over, show it to him, and then you’d throw it just a little ways [behind] him and he’d turn around and you could get a [tail] feather. The guy that was up there running that thing decided that he was going to save some skins for me if one of their exotic birds died. Then I’d run around and see who was raising chickens and I’d get some chicken feathers. There was a feather pillow in the house, it was kind of worn out, and the feathers would come out of it and I’d use every one of them. So I just monkey-ed around mostly. But I did catch fish on the fly when I was in high school. Fresh water fishing mostly, but my parents lived on Puget Sound, which is salt water fishing. I’d walk around on the beach and cast for cutthroat or whatever, there’s a lot of things you can catch out there on a fly. Bottom fish, as we called them, mostly cod, and things like that. They would come up and grab it, sometimes, so it was fun to do. Phone rings BN: I went into the Navy right out of high school. TB: Did you fly fish when you were in the Navy? BN: Whenever I had a chance, yes. When I was kind of through with schooling and the war was over, actually, I was at Clearfield, Utah. (I could tell you a crazy story, but I better not). Anyway, we fished on several of the streams down there in Utah, and they were fun. I’ve got some pictures of that someplace. Pretty soon we had about three or four guys that would go with us; I mean that all of us would go together. One of my shipmates was a native of Salt Lake City, which is just south of Clearfield. We had a lot of fun doing things, but we’d also fish a lot. It was like still being in school, you got Saturday and Sunday off. And that’s what we’d do, whenever we got a chance, we’d go fishing when we weren’t working. They have a funny schedule when the war’s over and the Navy’s doing this and that. I was sent off to find a filter for the pool so we could kind of redo the pool. We had a swimming pool there at Clearfield, and I’d use that as an excuse to go hunting for that filter and we’d fish along the way. It was fun to do that; we’d have a jeep, the Navy jeep and go down to Salt Lake City, and try to find out what we could do there. On the way, if we could do something good, well, we’d do it, and get the filter and go back and install it, but on the way we would probably get a few casts in. That was fun. I had a bamboo rod (glass wasn’t really used in those days). I still may have part of those bamboo rods that were made in the years past. You put them in kind of a case and try and save them, and pretty soon you loose track of where they are. But I still have a couple of fishing rods and stuff like that. TB: So you got out of the Navy and then you came back to Everett? BN: Yes, I came back to Everett then. I enrolled right away at Washington State College. It’s called Washington State University now, and that’s where I met Audrey. TB: So you went to school, and what did you study to be? 2 Bill and Audrey Nelson Edited Transcript – May 7, 2007 Fly Fishing Collection ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED BN: I was studying things like math. I was thinking of becoming an engineer and I kind of switched and got out with a business education. I felt that it would be great to be an engineer, but the way things worked out was better. TB: So then you after you graduated from college, what did you do? Or how did you get back to Everett? BN: I was still in Everett in the summer time. I went to work at U.S. Rubber Company. That was kind of a strange thing too. I didn’t have a real, full education in business, but had some engineering background in it. I didn’t really graduate, but that was the four years counting the credit I got for the things that I had completed at Montana School of Mines. AN: Bill was stationed at Montana School of Mines (Butte, Montana) where he earned some college credits. He later transferred to Clearfield, Utah. BN: In the V-5 program which is a Naval Aviators training thing. They gave me full credit. They taught us engineering and things of this nature. Also we had Naval Organization, Naval Org they called it, they didn’t give you any college credit for it but it was supposed to be done before you were able to continue with the program. We would have football, baseball, and basketball teams from Montana School of Mines and that was still in the Navy. As soon as I got back, I registered at Washington State University. I had credits that I could use there and that was helpful. I knew a lot of the people at Washington State, and we re-established old friendships and went fly fishing there. TB: So where did you go fly fishing at Pullman? BN: The Grande Ronde. We didn’t really know what we had at that time. We’d go there and go fishing and try to catch a trout. I wasn’t there in the real summer time. The late summer and fall steelhead fishing is just outrageous, it’s so good. We married and settled in the Seattle area. The district manager for U.S. Rubber Company in Seattle came in and grabbed me, says, “We have a desk for you over in the U.S. Rubber Company,” (because my father had been in the tire business). That’s the way I started with the U.S. Rubber Company. It was my first job after leaving WSU. I was an order-clerk (I think is what you would call me). Then I got to be a salesman on the road, and calling on all of the U.S. Rubber Companies’ accounts, in various areas. AN: When you worked for U.S. Rubber, you were only in Seattle a short time (mid-1949-1950). Then he was transferred to Portland first (1950-1953), then Grants Pass (1953-1955), and finally Eugene (19551957). You did a lot of fishing in Oregon. BN: The Sandy River and the Willamette. We’d go down and fish there too, just below the falls. AN: He’d bring home all kinds of big fish. There was a little grocery store across the street that had a freezer, and they would put them in their freezer, and keep them for us and for themselves. You did a lot of fishing there; we were there for two years, in the Portland area. BN: It wasn’t all totally fly fishing there below the falls, but another good thing we’d catch was Jack Salmon, and catch them on the fly better than a spooner could or anybody else. We’d fish with a fly beneath the falls there for quite a long time. Then when it was tough, we’d have a casting rod and pitch it somewhere out there and try to catch some fish there. It could be wonderful fishing there and they’d let us go through the mill and down to the rocks right there at the bottom part of the falls, so I got hooked on that too. AN: You ought to tell them about when you were in Grant’s Pass and Eugene, how you had this little boat on top of [your] vehicle. He just went everywhere – down to the coast and over to Klamath Falls. TB: How did you get involved in the Evergreen Fly Fishing Club? 3 Bill and Audrey Nelson Edited Transcript – May 7, 2007 Fly Fishing Collection ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED BN: In 1958 I accepted a job with Armstrong Rubber Company and moved to Lynnwood, Washington (1958-1962). One of my best friends, Lew Bell, was president of the Evergreen Fly Fishing Club and I knew a lot of guys that were in the club because I was raised in Everett. I was living in Lynnwood but I would drive down to the meetings in Everett. There were a lot of nice guys in there. TB: How did you come to know Lew Bell? BN: I went fishing with him a lot and things like that. We just became dear friends; he’s my closest friend ever. We did other things besides fishing; we did potlucks for the club and stuff like that. But that’s a close-knit club; everybody is familiar with everybody else. It was a small enough group you got to know everybody in the club. They’d switch around to have lunch in various places. We’d go to lunch on Fridays, I think it was. Anyway, they’d have a weekly luncheon at the Elk’s Club or someplace else. (My father used to have the tire business right across from the Elk’s Club in Everett). It’s hard to recall those things in sequence. I wish I could do better for you. TB: You’re doing great. So how did you first start talking about forming the Federation of Fly Fishing? BN: We were on the Grande Ronde River, Lew Bell, Dick Denman, Dick Padovan and Dub Price and quite a group went there, it was kind of an exclusive group. At that time that was the best steelhead fishing in the world. We tried to get days off together, so we would all have the same week off, or two weeks off. Rick Miller would go down and fish with us in the Grande Ronde too. And we just started talking about it. We actually started talking about it when I was still up in Lynnwood working for Armstrong Rubber Company. We would have coffee at the Alpine Café (Everett, WA) and there would be about six or eight of us around this table and we’d just start talking about it. We all got together there at least once a week and maybe a couple days in a row, you know if I was around for a little while. We had discussions there when we were having coffee. But most of the planning and the ideas were thrown together up on the Grande Ronde when we were fishing. When we got back, everything was pretty much in our minds. We didn’t get it to a point where we got the Federation of Fly Fishermen through in thought but we all knew exactly, how it would go and where it would go. Then we bought the business in Eugene (1962) and moved here. TB: What business did you buy? BN: Eugene Tire Patch Company. The guy just said, “Well, you’re the only guy I’m going to sell it to and I’m going to make you a good deal. We’ll sell your home up in Lynnwood.” He took the job of selling the house we had in Lynnwood along with letting me buy his business. Then he spent about a month or two following me around. He worked with me for a month anyway. I got used to driving this panel [truck], and then I put some racks on the top. I had a light aluminum boat and I could put it up there on top. Everybody got a kick out of that and so half of my accounts became fisherman. That was fun. When I got down here to Eugene I found out they didn’t even have a fly-fishing club, and I thought, well, we must do something about this, we’re going to get a fly club, so I put an ad in the paper to find guys that would be interested, and we had six guys, I think it was, to begin with, set for the first meeting of people. AN: Oh, you had more than that, you had about a dozen the first night, I think you had about ten or twelve guys. 4 Bill and Audrey Nelson Edited Transcript – May 7, 2007 Fly Fishing Collection ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED BN: Yes, okay. Anyway, we formed the McKenzie Fly Fishers. TB: Now, let’s back up a minute, when you guys were talking on the Grande Ronde, what were the things that you thought needed to happen? Why were you interested in forming the federation? BN: Well, we worried about people doing things. We wanted to preserve as much of the water like the Grande Ronde and several other rivers, if we could possibly do it. Then we got to be friendly with people from various other places. I think I took two or three guys from the East Coast fishing here and there and that was when I was still up in Lynnwood. Then my travels around Washington, Oregon, Northern California, and Western Idaho, to sell patches to fix tires and tubes; while I was doing that, I met a whole bunch of different guys that were interested in fly fishing, so I thought, what the heck! We formed a club here and I laid it on them, and they went ahead with it. It was quite an affair really, by the time we got through starting that thing. People came from a long ways away and some of them were well known in those days and it kind of turned all of us on to what we wanted to do, and that was to help preserve fly fishing as a sport. We felt that we were more concerned about the fish than anyone else was, as far as preserving a run of fish in this river or that river. Anyway the whole thing was just a great experience for everybody involved, really. Some of them aren’t with us anymore, but you sure think of them with great respect. Lew Bell was my closest friend, he was an attorney in Everett, and actually, he was asked to serve in the U.S. Senate! He said, “No, I just don’t want to get mixed up with that.” TB: The other thing is why did you feel that there needed to be something beyond Trout Unlimited? I read where Trout Unlimited had formed in the Fifties, and it was geared towards preservation of fishing. BN: Oh, yes, and Martin Bovey who was the president of Trout Unlimited, came to our first meeting in Eugene when we were going to build a Federation of Fly Fishing. TB: So, the Trout Unlimited wasn’t going far enough? BN: No, it was just a different system. End of Side One, Tape One BN: Trout Unlimited was a good organization, don’t get me wrong. Martin Bovey asked for a list of the folks that were going to be in the Federation and then he, in turn, gave one of our members a list of the fellows that he thought would be very interested in the Federation and in the fly fishing system. There was also fly fishing clubs on the East Coast that he gave us information about. Martin Bovey was really good; he gave us a lot of information. We even had guys like Lee Wulff. TB: Now how did you get the idea to ask him? AN: He was a famous guy. Bill wrote to a lot of people that were prominent in that business or that liked to fly fish like… TB: Bing Crosby? AN: … yes like Bing Crosby, and Bill received a really nice letter that we can’t find. TB: I’ve seen a copy of that. AN: I think somebody published it at some time, but I can’t find it, but it was a nice letter of regret, but he had a lot of positives too. 5 Bill and Audrey Nelson Edited Transcript – May 7, 2007 Fly Fishing Collection ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED BN: Oh and we flew to Jackson Hole. One of the guys had an airplane, Bill Hilton, who was another close friend, and I’d fish with him a lot. We took four guys all together, including Bill, and went to an outdoor writer’s convention in Jackson Hole. We went around and met a lot of the guys and we got a lot of support out of just that meeting of the outdoors writers. That was one routine we went through, and it worked out very well. Also, we had folks that didn’t really want to belong to something, but yet they thought that our idea as far as conservation and everything like that was concerned was good and they came along and went to it. It wasn’t an easy program having the first conclave. But everybody really pitched in and did the best they could. TB: So you were a new club, that had just been formed, and right away you were trying to have this big conclave, so how did that go over with your club? And did everybody stay with you? BN: Oh, no, in the beginning there were guys that just didn’t think it would go, and they even quit the club, so to speak. But then in the interim period the guys that stayed and talked about it, the next thing you knew we had a run of people that wanted to be in the club and to help with this conclave we were going to put on to form a federation. The word conclave came from me in the fact that when I was going to Washington State, the fraternity went down to Las Vegas. The University of Nevada was going to have a new charter down there, so we went down there and we kind of got everybody else that we could to go to this thing and it worked out really well. It was a conclave they put on there, and that’s where I got the word conclave. TB: The conclave was in 1965. BN: The first one. TB: And I think you had just formed the club in 1964, didn’t you? BN: That’s correct. AN: Yes. TB: So it’s like the first thing your club did was to have this national conclave the next year! AN: It scared the guys. But they were all young and enthusiastic and ambitious, and full of it -- they had confidence. BN: We had the cream of the crop. We had the cream of the crop of everything. AN: The ones that dropped out though, a lot of them came back in, too. BN: Yes, that’s right, after we did the work. But it was a good club too – it was just outstanding as far as I was concerned. But the Evergreen Club is still part of it too, they helped so much. AN: And his friend Lew, who was an attorney; he helped do so much of the work, in that line. He was from Everett and he was a wonderful speaker, too. BN: I think I’ve got a little tape on that someplace, haven’t I? AN: Well, you’ve got all the beginning. TB: Oh, all of those speakers are on tape? BN: Yes, some of them are. 6 Bill and Audrey Nelson Edited Transcript – May 7, 2007 Fly Fishing Collection ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collections ALL RIGHTS RESERVED AN: I don’t know all of them, but some of them are on that Never Name the River? TB: Oh, sure, that’s where the footage came from. BN: Have you seen that? TB: I did; that was invaluable. Tell me a little more about you then, I know you are well known for being a salt-water fly fisherman; you were a guide up in B.C., right? BN: Yes. TB: How did you get into that? BN: Well, I belonged to the McKenzie River Guides Association here, and some of us would go up to B.C. on our vacations to a place called April Point. We were friends with a couple – Marsh and Stephanie Webster – and we shared a cabin at April Point for quite a few years. We’d each take our own boat and have a great time. It was a fantastic setting. We were fly fishing on salt water. Sometimes we would use up about everything. TB: Now that was kind of a new thing, wasn’t it? BN: I think so, yes. But we’d wade along the inside edge of the kelp, and cast ahead of us, and try and catch fish that way, and we did! It was amazing how many fish are inside the kelp and nobody can go in there and troll for them. We’d fish the mouths of the rivers in the fall, and just fly fish it, and it was just absolutely outstanding. I met a guy, his name was Bob Hurst, and he was with the Canada Fisheries, in the area there at Parksville. That’s south of where we were on Quadra Island. We got to be good friends. Then we started trying to use flies and by golly we sure did use them, and they worked out pretty good. Two or three fly fishermen in the fisheries and then there were guys that were just fly-tiers and they started tying salt water flies. Short Break TB: Now which fly is this? BN: I guess you’d call that The Mrs. Nelson. But this is a better example that kind of does the work, there, that’s a herring. Then they come out in different sizes. TB: Now how did you happen to name this Mrs. Nelson? How’s it like to have a fly named after you? AN: It’s great, it has a great story. BN: I was fishing with a guy from South Africa, William Vander Byl, who came to the lodge, and he was kind of excited about casting for salmon in the salt chuck. We took him down to the south end of the island and he’d cast and catch fish here and there, and he did really well, in comparison to some of the people that we were trying to help catch fish. We were coming back from the south edge of the island and we had two or three fish that he caught. He lost a few fish and then he had very few strikes down there. I had a net float on my console (I had a compass in there but then the compass went haywire and the hole that held the compass was just right to hold the net float). When I wasn’t using the flies I’d put them in this net float. And he said, “What’s that fly there in that net float?” 7 Bill and Audrey Nelson Edited Transcript – May 7, 2007 Fly Fishing Collection ©Western Washington University Libraries Special Collection

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