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WEBVTT kvos special 20 01 s21

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Good evening.

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Have you ever stopped
to ask yourself,

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how does a person learn to read?

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We often hear a great many glib
answers to that question when,

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but when you stop to
think it over carefully,

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you realize that how a
person learns to read

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is one of those great mysteries,
as is any kind of learning.

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However, we have
discovered and developed

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a variety of ways and
theories and methods

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of teaching reading.

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Tonight, one of the leading
experts in teaching reading

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is with us.

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He is Dr. Donald
Durrell, professor

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of English at Boston
University in Massachusetts.

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Talking with him is
Dr. James L Jarrett,

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president of Western
Washington State College.

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Tonight, you've been listening
to a conversation between Dr.

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James L Jarrett, president
of Western Washington State

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College, and Dr. Donald
Durrell, professor of education

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at Boston University
in Massachusetts

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and authority in the
field of teaching reading.

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Goodnight.

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Dr. Durrell, I have the
general impression, which

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I imagine you share, that seldom
in our history in this country

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has there been as much
interest as there is today

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in the problem of reading--

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in learning to read,
and continuing to read.

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And I should like to ask
you a general evaluation

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on your part, how well do
American youth read today?

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Well, fortunately,
they can still read,

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and I think they're reading
better than they ever have.

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It's a little hard
to prove this,

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except for the fact that
colleges are more and more

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pleased with the quality of
people that come to them,

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and are getting fussier and
fussier about the people

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they take in.

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Also any types of
measures we apply,

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that we're used 20 years
ago or 30 years ago,

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versus today's youth
will show a higher degree

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of achievement of reading.

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On the other hand,
you still have

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many schools in which the
reading is rather poorly

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handled.

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You can't generalize
for American schools,

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because within the
same 10-mile radius,

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you're going to have
reading taught very well--

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must emphasize-- beautifully
in one school system that's

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more casual.

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Or even the same building--

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I recall visiting a school
just before the school closed

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in Massachusetts.

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In the same building,
one extremely

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skilled first grade
teacher, across the hall

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another who was clumsy.

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By the way, both
were my graduates.

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Well, I guess you're
saying in the latter,

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then, that this is not a matter
of difference in methods--

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one using one method,
and another teacher

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using another method, and that
accounting for the difference.

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But just something about the
general skill of the teacher?

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Well, it's how well
the time is being used,

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and whether the material
is suitable for the child.

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If you have a youngster that
has no ear for sounds in words,

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then he can't use
phonics, and therefore,

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if he doesn't get that
help, he doesn't go.

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A skilled teacher
gives his help.

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A child who is weak
in letter knowledge,

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doesn't know too much about
this is given help immediately.

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Some people, the
child spends a lot

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of time coloring six hens red,
where another person spends

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that same amount of time in
reading several hundred words.

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So there's a degree
of intensity,

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a degree of a suitability, a
degree of fitting instruction

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to the level of the
ability of the child.

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And these are a whole
series of skill,

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it's not just one technique.

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As a matter of fact,
there's so little difference

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among the general approaches
in beginning reading,

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it's pretty hard to
tell a difference.

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Only the experts
want to quarrel about

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whether you do vowels
first or consonants first.

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I see.

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It's very minor.

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One does hear though, today
a good deal of criticism

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directed against the teaching
of reading, particularly

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as I read the
popular literature,

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against what is believed
to be a neglect of phonics.

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Are we today neglecting
to teach pupils

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to read so that
they can pronounce

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the words which they read?

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One hears all of the
stories about how

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here is a pupil who has, in
some sense, learned to read.

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His eyes travel over the page,
and he has some comprehension,

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but you ask him to read
aloud, and he is lost.

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Or you ask him to
pronounce a word,

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and he pronounces it in some
perfectly arbitrary fashion.

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Now, is this a
well-founded criticism

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of a lot of the teaching today?

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We had, in the 1930s, when
some of the more idiotic

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progressives were in charge
of certain small numbers

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of schools, a whispering
campaign against phonics.

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It had no standing whatever
with the research men

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or the men who were in the
teacher education, that

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had some concern about
the realities of service.

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And there's been never
a colleague of mine

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that I know of who's
been anti-phonics.

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As a matter of fact,
most of us are constantly

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looking to make
phonics more effective.

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But so many people think
that any phonics is good.

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The first 2,000
reading failures--

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I've been studying reading
failures since 1925--

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and the first 2,000
I saw were in Iowa.

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In those days-- '25, '27--

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the children who were failing
came through Beacon and Aldine

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phonics, the cough and
sneeze kind of phonics.

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And they were reading
failures, so the phonics

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didn't correct them.

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The trouble was, in
their case, well,

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that the youngsters didn't
notice the separate sounds

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in spoken words.

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And it's a little
hard to explain.

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A youngster, in
order to use phonics,

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has got to notice
the speech sounds.

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And I brought along here--

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this is one thing
I did bring along.

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Good.

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Somewhere.

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A way that you can tell whether
a child has this ear for

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sounds.

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See, the phonetic work is so
designed that he who speaks

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should be able to read,
but only if he notices

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sounds in the words he speaks.

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And many youngsters
speak beautifully,

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have high intelligence,
fine speaking vocabularies,

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but never noticed that the first
sound in magic, many, machine,

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had a "mm" in them.

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They don't know whether it's
"tuh" or "guh" or so on,

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even though they've
been taught phonics.

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So one of the things
that I regularly

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do with a group of youngsters
that are having trouble,

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I will hand them these four
letters, same back, front.

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I've got a set for each one,
because usually there'll

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be five or six in a classroom
early in the year, that

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will have no work.

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So I say to them, show
me M, show me B, G, F,

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and the children hold
up the right letters.

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I see.

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And they've had a little
phonics, you say, show me "mm,"

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and up comes "mm."

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Show me "buh," "guh,"
and this comes up.

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Fine, they got the phonics.

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Then you say, show me the
first letter in this word--

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fountain.

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And up comes "buh"
and up comes "mm."

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They have no idea that
fountain has a "ff" in it.

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And this is many
bright youngsters,

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and more boys than girls.

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And how do you go
about correcting this?

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How would you proceed
to teach a student

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that that F sound, as it
actually occurs in the word,

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is [INAUDIBLE].

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Well, you have to--

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first, it's a problem
of identifying it.

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And therefore, we go back to
speech correction techniques

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for this.

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You to a child, say
these after me, 5, 15--

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and you watch the
lips and the teeth--

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5, 15, half, thief, rough--

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so they can feel it.

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And that's one of the ways
that some of the youngsters,

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who have not gotten
it yet, get it.

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Or how an L feels.

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Like, listen, lake,
wall, tall, tell.

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And they feel it.

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You go back to
speech correction,

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just as if they
had speech defects,

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and then they
begin to feel this.

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One of the easiest ones, that's
more dramatic for the kids,

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is pin, pipe, paste, tap.

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Just let me make sure
I'm understanding this.

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Are you saying that you do
this for the average and normal

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child just in the
process of teaching him,

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or are you talking [INAUDIBLE]?

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Now, as to the
first question, you

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make sure that the child
coming into grade 1

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has this ability to
notice "mm" in magic,

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the "t" in take or ticket in
the first week of the school.

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If he doesn't, he can't
use look-and-say methods,

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he can't use phonic
methods at all.

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Because without noticing the
sound structure in the words--

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and about 1/3 third
of your first graders

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are deficient in
this, and they are

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the ones you have to
land on and really work.

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And this should be
done in the first two

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months of the first grade.

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Well, now if it's--

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If it's not done, the youngster
is going to go through the year

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and he's never
going to catch out

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that trick of the tie
between the sounds,

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because he doesn't
know the sound

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and he can't make the tie.

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And this is the primary reason
for our reading failures.

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Well, if one starts
learning reading that early,

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in the first grade,
it sounds to me

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as if there must
be something that

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should go on before the child
ever hits the first grade.

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Do you have any
suggestions to parents

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about preparing their students
for this traumatic experience?

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I let parents alone.

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I'm maybe alone in this.

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But when I was 19, I
gave lectures to mothers

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on how to raise children.

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But in 1933, when my
first child was born,

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I quit teaching
child psychology,

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because I think child psychology
should be taught only by people

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that have no children.

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They can be sure.

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And I'm grateful if
parents send their child

00:10:12.790 --> 00:10:15.160 align:middle line:90%
to school with certain--

00:10:15.160 --> 00:10:19.060 align:middle line:84%
well, if a child knows
the names of letters

00:10:19.060 --> 00:10:25.120 align:middle line:84%
before he comes to school, if he
knows that this is an M, fine.

00:10:25.120 --> 00:10:27.660 align:middle line:84%
If he knows almost all of
them know that this is O

00:10:27.660 --> 00:10:28.990 align:middle line:90%
and this is X--

00:10:28.990 --> 00:10:30.040 align:middle line:90%
those are ones.

00:10:30.040 --> 00:10:33.370 align:middle line:84%
And they learn a lot of the
words-- stop, street signs,

00:10:33.370 --> 00:10:36.160 align:middle line:84%
school signs, all sorts
of essential signs

00:10:36.160 --> 00:10:37.190 align:middle line:90%
you have to do nowadays.

00:10:37.190 --> 00:10:39.700 align:middle line:84%
And the television
has tremendous amount

00:10:39.700 --> 00:10:43.960 align:middle line:90%
of impact, mostly ads.

00:10:43.960 --> 00:10:47.920 align:middle line:84%
After all, they play up letters
on all kinds of television ads.

00:10:47.920 --> 00:10:49.200 align:middle line:90%
And so the child gets this.

00:10:49.200 --> 00:10:52.030 align:middle line:84%
And a child that comes to
school knowing his letters

00:10:52.030 --> 00:10:53.140 align:middle line:90%
learns to read faster.

00:10:53.140 --> 00:10:57.730 align:middle line:84%
We can test this by teaching
six words in the morning,

00:10:57.730 --> 00:10:59.782 align:middle line:84%
and then seeing how
many the child remembers

00:10:59.782 --> 00:11:00.490 align:middle line:90%
in the afternoon.

00:11:00.490 --> 00:11:02.230 align:middle line:84%
The children who
remember all of them

00:11:02.230 --> 00:11:04.905 align:middle line:84%
are virtually all youngsters
who know their letters.

00:11:04.905 --> 00:11:07.030 align:middle line:84%
So if you can to help your
child know the letters--

00:11:07.030 --> 00:11:08.450 align:middle line:84%
And this means all the
letters [INAUDIBLE]??

00:11:08.450 --> 00:11:08.730 align:middle line:90%
Yeah, and also--

00:11:08.730 --> 00:11:10.147 align:middle line:84%
Not just an M and
N, for instance?

00:11:10.147 --> 00:11:13.160 align:middle line:84%
Well, we're grateful if he
knows the capital letters.

00:11:13.160 --> 00:11:15.990 align:middle line:84%
But if he knows the
lowercase, fine.

00:11:15.990 --> 00:11:19.180 align:middle line:84%
But one of the problems in
lowercase letters is this--

00:11:19.180 --> 00:11:22.690 align:middle line:90%
the n and h look a lot alike.

00:11:22.690 --> 00:11:24.305 align:middle line:90%
The stem is higher.

00:11:24.305 --> 00:11:25.930 align:middle line:84%
Of course, the ones
that give the worst

00:11:25.930 --> 00:11:32.080 align:middle line:84%
trouble in lowercase
letters all loops on stems.

00:11:32.080 --> 00:11:35.200 align:middle line:84%
We ought to have a more
distinctive thing here.

00:11:35.200 --> 00:11:37.620 align:middle line:84%
And by the way, also
one of the things too,

00:11:37.620 --> 00:11:40.640 align:middle line:84%
we use print rather than
the cursive writing,

00:11:40.640 --> 00:11:43.660 align:middle line:84%
primarily because you
want to diminish--

00:11:43.660 --> 00:11:47.750 align:middle line:84%
well, look, if this
is an f, what is this?

00:11:47.750 --> 00:11:48.540 align:middle line:90%
Yes.

00:11:48.540 --> 00:11:49.040 align:middle line:90%
I mean--

00:11:49.040 --> 00:11:49.890 align:middle line:90%
Two separate [INAUDIBLE].

00:11:49.890 --> 00:11:50.765 align:middle line:90%
Two separate symbols.

00:11:50.765 --> 00:11:53.790 align:middle line:84%
Like if we start learning
a foreign symbolism,

00:11:53.790 --> 00:11:56.070 align:middle line:84%
say Sanskrit or
something like this,

00:11:56.070 --> 00:11:58.230 align:middle line:84%
and they had two
ways of doing it,

00:11:58.230 --> 00:11:59.880 align:middle line:84%
it's lots harder
than having one way.

00:11:59.880 --> 00:12:00.570 align:middle line:90%
So generally--

00:12:00.570 --> 00:12:02.580 align:middle line:84%
Or even the learning of
German, for that matter.

00:12:02.580 --> 00:12:04.770 align:middle line:84%
We would rather not
have to learn the script

00:12:04.770 --> 00:12:06.853 align:middle line:84%
at the same time that we're
learning the language.

00:12:06.853 --> 00:12:08.170 align:middle line:90%
And so yeah, it's easier.

00:12:08.170 --> 00:12:10.950 align:middle line:84%
Although many youngsters
get going in the grade 1,

00:12:10.950 --> 00:12:12.850 align:middle line:84%
immediately move over
to this on their own,

00:12:12.850 --> 00:12:15.490 align:middle line:84%
even though you do this, because
they think this is grown up.

00:12:15.490 --> 00:12:15.990 align:middle line:90%
I see.

00:12:15.990 --> 00:12:17.630 align:middle line:84%
And so they want to write
like the grownups do.

00:12:17.630 --> 00:12:19.270 align:middle line:84%
And these are the
ones who know these.

00:12:19.270 --> 00:12:21.660 align:middle line:84%
So if they know their
letters before they come in--

00:12:21.660 --> 00:12:25.170 align:middle line:84%
as a matter of fact, the
three and four-year-olds are

00:12:25.170 --> 00:12:25.880 align:middle line:90%
the first--

00:12:25.880 --> 00:12:28.445 align:middle line:84%
that's the age where they
first show the desire to write.

00:12:28.445 --> 00:12:29.915 align:middle line:90%
And I let them write.

00:12:29.915 --> 00:12:32.580 align:middle line:84%
Look, there are quite a
number of books that tell

00:12:32.580 --> 00:12:34.230 align:middle line:90%
parents don't teach reading.

00:12:34.230 --> 00:12:36.510 align:middle line:84%
It's a very, very
delicate thing.

00:12:36.510 --> 00:12:38.160 align:middle line:90%
Now you don't believe this?

00:12:38.160 --> 00:12:39.490 align:middle line:90%
Nonsense.

00:12:39.490 --> 00:12:43.030 align:middle line:84%
You can read yourself and
don't lie to the child

00:12:43.030 --> 00:12:44.550 align:middle line:84%
like you can't do
anything wrong.

00:12:44.550 --> 00:12:48.990 align:middle line:84%
Because the child, anything you
do, and the teacher's smart,

00:12:48.990 --> 00:12:50.620 align:middle line:84%
she can utilize to
a good advantage.

00:12:50.620 --> 00:12:51.120 align:middle line:90%
I see.

00:12:51.120 --> 00:12:54.135 align:middle line:84%
And many youngsters force you
to teach them to read at home.

00:12:54.135 --> 00:12:55.260 align:middle line:90%
You don't have much choice.

00:12:55.260 --> 00:12:56.927 align:middle line:84%
Because they bring
words to you, or they

00:12:56.927 --> 00:12:59.110 align:middle line:84%
start writing and make you
spell letters for them,

00:12:59.110 --> 00:13:00.450 align:middle line:90%
spell words for them.

00:13:00.450 --> 00:13:02.470 align:middle line:90%
And sure, go ahead.

00:13:02.470 --> 00:13:04.870 align:middle line:84%
That is, if you yourself
know all the letters

00:13:04.870 --> 00:13:07.530 align:middle line:84%
and can read the words,
why then help the child.

00:13:07.530 --> 00:13:09.960 align:middle line:84%
The only thing a parent
can do wrong-- or two.

00:13:09.960 --> 00:13:12.300 align:middle line:84%
One, if the parent gets
the books from the school

00:13:12.300 --> 00:13:14.580 align:middle line:84%
and ruins them for the
child before the child gets

00:13:14.580 --> 00:13:16.920 align:middle line:84%
to the teacher, this
is bad business.

00:13:16.920 --> 00:13:18.930 align:middle line:90%
Let the school's material alone.

00:13:18.930 --> 00:13:22.440 align:middle line:84%
The second thing,
if the child doesn't

00:13:22.440 --> 00:13:25.140 align:middle line:90%
come to you for the lesson.

00:13:25.140 --> 00:13:27.150 align:middle line:84%
In other words, if you
are driving the youngster

00:13:27.150 --> 00:13:29.110 align:middle line:84%
and then he begins
to run away from you,

00:13:29.110 --> 00:13:30.628 align:middle line:84%
then you make
reading distasteful.

00:13:30.628 --> 00:13:33.170 align:middle line:84%
And it's a little harder for
him although he can get over it.

00:13:33.170 --> 00:13:35.080 align:middle line:84%
As a matter of
fact, I think there

00:13:35.080 --> 00:13:38.100 align:middle line:84%
are quite a lot of things that
could be done in kindergartens.

00:13:38.100 --> 00:13:40.380 align:middle line:84%
But I'm not enough
crusader for that

00:13:40.380 --> 00:13:44.520 align:middle line:84%
because I find that whatever
child brings to grade 1,

00:13:44.520 --> 00:13:47.160 align:middle line:84%
we know what to do
for him generally.

00:13:47.160 --> 00:13:50.520 align:middle line:84%
Although one thing many teachers
are not doing well enough

00:13:50.520 --> 00:13:54.480 align:middle line:84%
is the ear training
and even letters.

00:13:54.480 --> 00:13:55.980 align:middle line:84%
We've had, by the
way, a whispering

00:13:55.980 --> 00:13:59.370 align:middle line:84%
campaign from some odd source
against teaching letters.

00:13:59.370 --> 00:14:02.310 align:middle line:84%
But every single study since
the beginning of research

00:14:02.310 --> 00:14:05.768 align:middle line:84%
in reading shows if a child
knows his letters and can write

00:14:05.768 --> 00:14:08.060 align:middle line:84%
them or can tell you what
the names-- that that's an h,

00:14:08.060 --> 00:14:11.190 align:middle line:84%
that's an n, that's a p, and
this is an m, and so on--

00:14:11.190 --> 00:14:13.597 align:middle line:84%
this always is
advantageous in learning.

00:14:13.597 --> 00:14:14.430 align:middle line:90%
[INTERPOSING VOICES]

00:14:14.430 --> 00:14:16.380 align:middle line:84%
But for some reason
or other, some people

00:14:16.380 --> 00:14:18.920 align:middle line:84%
are against it, as though
it's some mysterious cult

00:14:18.920 --> 00:14:20.502 align:middle line:90%
that you should not do it.

00:14:20.502 --> 00:14:21.210 align:middle line:90%
I don't know why.

00:14:21.210 --> 00:14:23.620 align:middle line:84%
We get a lot of
oddities in education.

00:14:23.620 --> 00:14:26.250 align:middle line:84%
Particular from people
who've taught one child,

00:14:26.250 --> 00:14:28.390 align:middle line:84%
who had one course
in psychology,

00:14:28.390 --> 00:14:30.770 align:middle line:84%
and they give you
the true gospel.

00:14:30.770 --> 00:14:32.520 align:middle line:84%
Let's go back to the
parents for a moment.

00:14:32.520 --> 00:14:34.620 align:middle line:84%
Now you're saying,
if I understand you,

00:14:34.620 --> 00:14:36.630 align:middle line:84%
that though the
parents shouldn't force

00:14:36.630 --> 00:14:39.850 align:middle line:84%
the issue, especially to
make reading distasteful,

00:14:39.850 --> 00:14:42.213 align:middle line:84%
he should seize upon whatever
interest the child has.

00:14:42.213 --> 00:14:44.130 align:middle line:84%
And I suppose you're
saying the child normally

00:14:44.130 --> 00:14:48.970 align:middle line:84%
does have some interest in
learning letters and so forth.

00:14:48.970 --> 00:14:53.160 align:middle line:84%
Suppose then that the
parent has helped his child

00:14:53.160 --> 00:14:55.320 align:middle line:90%
to learn the letters.

00:14:55.320 --> 00:14:56.430 align:middle line:90%
What else?

00:14:56.430 --> 00:14:59.910 align:middle line:84%
Is there anything that he can
do or might helpfully do--

00:14:59.910 --> 00:15:03.690 align:middle line:84%
for instance, about this
matter of learning sounds?

00:15:03.690 --> 00:15:05.640 align:middle line:90%
Oh, that's a little tougher.

00:15:05.640 --> 00:15:10.330 align:middle line:84%
You can if you want
to make a plan of it.

00:15:10.330 --> 00:15:12.810 align:middle line:84%
You saw about the
Denver TV program

00:15:12.810 --> 00:15:15.920 align:middle line:84%
for parents on how to prepare
your child for reading.

00:15:15.920 --> 00:15:17.850 align:middle line:84%
They scared me
because it sounded

00:15:17.850 --> 00:15:22.620 align:middle line:84%
as though if you don't do this,
your child's bound to be bad,

00:15:22.620 --> 00:15:23.850 align:middle line:90%
fail in reading.

00:15:23.850 --> 00:15:27.420 align:middle line:84%
But there they suggested
that you place objects

00:15:27.420 --> 00:15:29.140 align:middle line:84%
around the room and
play a game and have

00:15:29.140 --> 00:15:33.490 align:middle line:84%
a child bring a basket and
say, "buh" and a ball and say--

00:15:33.490 --> 00:15:34.240 align:middle line:90%
this is contrived.

00:15:34.240 --> 00:15:34.967 align:middle line:90%
Too much for me.

00:15:34.967 --> 00:15:35.550 align:middle line:90%
But it's good.

00:15:35.550 --> 00:15:36.133 align:middle line:90%
You can do it.

00:15:36.133 --> 00:15:39.810 align:middle line:84%
Or on this table, I
must confess that one

00:15:39.810 --> 00:15:43.890 align:middle line:84%
of my three daughters, who was
quite obviously not skilled

00:15:43.890 --> 00:15:47.640 align:middle line:84%
in sounds about age three or
four, we began to say to her,

00:15:47.640 --> 00:15:50.820 align:middle line:84%
I see things to eat
that begin with "k"--

00:15:50.820 --> 00:15:53.065 align:middle line:90%
cookies, corn, cake.

00:15:53.065 --> 00:15:55.070 align:middle line:90%
This is kind of useful.

00:15:55.070 --> 00:15:56.790 align:middle line:84%
But I don't take
it too seriously.

00:15:56.790 --> 00:15:58.290 align:middle line:84%
One of the other
things, by the way,

00:15:58.290 --> 00:16:01.260 align:middle line:90%
though this is all beginning.

00:16:01.260 --> 00:16:05.970 align:middle line:84%
Obviously, parents who read
newspapers, who have youngsters

00:16:05.970 --> 00:16:10.350 align:middle line:84%
read back to them, and who
read stories to them at night,

00:16:10.350 --> 00:16:13.680 align:middle line:84%
and who go over picture
books with them and so on,

00:16:13.680 --> 00:16:16.170 align:middle line:84%
they are obviously-- all
this is to advantage.

00:16:16.170 --> 00:16:18.670 align:middle line:84%
And the youngsters or the
families that memorize

00:16:18.670 --> 00:16:22.380 align:middle line:84%
poetry around the table,
any kind of thing.

00:16:22.380 --> 00:16:23.700 align:middle line:90%
Any exciting reading.

00:16:23.700 --> 00:16:27.360 align:middle line:84%
Fathers that remember
poems and do this.

00:16:27.360 --> 00:16:29.230 align:middle line:90%
It always gives a literary bent.

00:16:29.230 --> 00:16:30.930 align:middle line:90%
And I think it rather helps.

00:16:30.930 --> 00:16:33.690 align:middle line:84%
I was going to mention
the matter of poetry too.

00:16:33.690 --> 00:16:37.170 align:middle line:84%
Around my household, we
do a lot of rhyming--

00:16:37.170 --> 00:16:38.587 align:middle line:84%
not necessarily
with the intention

00:16:38.587 --> 00:16:39.795 align:middle line:90%
of helping them with reading.

00:16:39.795 --> 00:16:41.310 align:middle line:84%
But I should think
it might actually

00:16:41.310 --> 00:16:42.740 align:middle line:90%
afford some ear training.

00:16:42.740 --> 00:16:43.240 align:middle line:90%
Exactly.

00:16:43.240 --> 00:16:43.740 align:middle line:90%
It does.

00:16:43.740 --> 00:16:45.390 align:middle line:90%
They get some sounds in mind.

00:16:45.390 --> 00:16:49.380 align:middle line:84%
A lot of the Mother Goose
rhymes and other somewhat high

00:16:49.380 --> 00:16:53.300 align:middle line:84%
alliteration so that you get
a pressing with single sound.

00:16:53.300 --> 00:16:54.430 align:middle line:90%
All good, sure.

00:16:54.430 --> 00:16:56.040 align:middle line:84%
But I think probably
more important

00:16:56.040 --> 00:17:00.000 align:middle line:84%
than the technical details
of the anatomy of symbols

00:17:00.000 --> 00:17:04.890 align:middle line:84%
is this business of having an
interest in books, and reading,

00:17:04.890 --> 00:17:08.790 align:middle line:84%
and library borrowing on
the part of the parent.

00:17:08.790 --> 00:17:10.790 align:middle line:84%
And they're bringing up
books with [INAUDIBLE]..

00:17:10.790 --> 00:17:12.094 align:middle line:90%
You think that is important--

00:17:12.094 --> 00:17:12.761 align:middle line:90%
Well, of course.

00:17:12.761 --> 00:17:15.569 align:middle line:90%
--to use the library?

00:17:15.569 --> 00:17:16.579 align:middle line:90%
Naturally.

00:17:16.579 --> 00:17:19.170 align:middle line:84%
Because if you don't,
why bother to learn

00:17:19.170 --> 00:17:20.810 align:middle line:90%
to read if you don't use it?

00:17:20.810 --> 00:17:22.770 align:middle line:84%
And the key to fine
reading instruction

00:17:22.770 --> 00:17:25.020 align:middle line:90%
is excellent use of reading.

00:17:25.020 --> 00:17:29.010 align:middle line:84%
Dr. Durrell, I'm now wondering
about teacher education.

00:17:29.010 --> 00:17:31.740 align:middle line:84%
As you know, I have some
interest in the subject.

00:17:31.740 --> 00:17:34.500 align:middle line:84%
And today at Western
Washington State College,

00:17:34.500 --> 00:17:36.450 align:middle line:84%
we are certainly
putting more emphasis

00:17:36.450 --> 00:17:40.270 align:middle line:84%
upon learning to teach
reading than previously.

00:17:40.270 --> 00:17:43.470 align:middle line:84%
And there is more interest
shown in the part of students

00:17:43.470 --> 00:17:45.450 align:middle line:90%
and returning teachers.

00:17:45.450 --> 00:17:48.662 align:middle line:84%
I'd like to hear you talk
about this for a moment or two.

00:17:48.662 --> 00:17:51.120 align:middle line:84%
I know that you have been in
the teacher education business

00:17:51.120 --> 00:17:54.360 align:middle line:84%
now for a long time, and
certainly have some ideas

00:17:54.360 --> 00:17:58.240 align:middle line:84%
about the training,
the education--

00:17:58.240 --> 00:18:01.170 align:middle line:84%
particularly of the
elementary teacher-to-be,

00:18:01.170 --> 00:18:04.070 align:middle line:84%
or the one who is coming
back for refresher work.

00:18:04.070 --> 00:18:06.810 align:middle line:84%
What would you say
about this big subject?

00:18:06.810 --> 00:18:07.695 align:middle line:90%
Believe me, it's big.

00:18:07.695 --> 00:18:10.820 align:middle line:90%
That's all I'll say.

00:18:10.820 --> 00:18:14.040 align:middle line:84%
I suppose that anybody who
is a professor of education,

00:18:14.040 --> 00:18:16.680 align:middle line:84%
particularly at
reading, every year

00:18:16.680 --> 00:18:19.260 align:middle line:84%
tries some way to make
his work more effective.

00:18:19.260 --> 00:18:23.040 align:middle line:84%
And I've been working
at it a long while.

00:18:23.040 --> 00:18:26.040 align:middle line:84%
One of the big problems
is that the teachers now

00:18:26.040 --> 00:18:27.930 align:middle line:90%
are not coming into colleges.

00:18:27.930 --> 00:18:31.070 align:middle line:84%
The teachers are
coming from the homes.

00:18:31.070 --> 00:18:32.780 align:middle line:84%
nine out of 10 teachers,
in many places,

00:18:32.780 --> 00:18:34.380 align:middle line:90%
are mothers and grandmothers.

00:18:34.380 --> 00:18:36.020 align:middle line:84%
So that what you do
in the college now

00:18:36.020 --> 00:18:39.050 align:middle line:84%
my effect another
generation, but now now.

00:18:39.050 --> 00:18:41.440 align:middle line:84%
And many of these women
are teaching in order

00:18:41.440 --> 00:18:42.985 align:middle line:84%
to send their
daughters to school.

00:18:42.985 --> 00:18:45.360 align:middle line:84%
And then the daughters teach
until the first child comes,

00:18:45.360 --> 00:18:46.420 align:middle line:90%
and that's it.

00:18:46.420 --> 00:18:48.630 align:middle line:84%
So we have a constantly
changing profession.

00:18:48.630 --> 00:18:51.780 align:middle line:84%
If we had a continuing
professional group,

00:18:51.780 --> 00:18:52.740 align:middle line:90%
it'd be much easier.

00:18:52.740 --> 00:18:56.860 align:middle line:84%
Then what we do in the colleges
might make a difference.

00:18:56.860 --> 00:18:58.700 align:middle line:84%
So that I think a large
part of our service

00:18:58.700 --> 00:19:03.030 align:middle line:84%
has got to be off-campus,
in-service work, done out there

00:19:03.030 --> 00:19:06.300 align:middle line:84%
when schools are in session,
and done with demonstrations.

00:19:06.300 --> 00:19:11.340 align:middle line:84%
Because it's very difficult to
convey by talk techniques as

00:19:11.340 --> 00:19:15.270 align:middle line:84%
involved as taking care of
30 children with differing

00:19:15.270 --> 00:19:18.090 align:middle line:84%
abilities, with
different progress rates,

00:19:18.090 --> 00:19:20.580 align:middle line:84%
different levels, and
different kinds of weaknesses.

00:19:20.580 --> 00:19:23.278 align:middle line:84%
You can tell about
this, but this is merely

00:19:23.278 --> 00:19:24.570 align:middle line:90%
an evasion of the real problem.

00:19:24.570 --> 00:19:26.237 align:middle line:84%
You've got to be able
to demonstrate it.

00:19:26.237 --> 00:19:28.230 align:middle line:84%
So I think that demonstrations
by the professor

00:19:28.230 --> 00:19:29.010 align:middle line:90%
are going to be--

00:19:29.010 --> 00:19:30.210 align:middle line:90%
are very important.

00:19:30.210 --> 00:19:31.560 align:middle line:90%
And we do this.

00:19:31.560 --> 00:19:36.000 align:middle line:84%
And rather than simply giving
the general principles.

00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:37.350 align:middle line:90%
So this should be done outside.

00:19:37.350 --> 00:19:41.780 align:middle line:84%
I think also that there's far
more learning by the student

00:19:41.780 --> 00:19:44.820 align:middle line:84%
if he is teaching children
at the time he's learning.

00:19:44.820 --> 00:19:48.180 align:middle line:84%
And therefore, we are now at our
place rotating all our juniors,

00:19:48.180 --> 00:19:50.130 align:middle line:90%
300 of them, through the clinic.

00:19:50.130 --> 00:19:52.550 align:middle line:84%
So while they're taking
courses in reading with me,

00:19:52.550 --> 00:19:55.152 align:middle line:84%
they are tutoring
children at the same time.

00:19:55.152 --> 00:19:56.610 align:middle line:84%
And I find this
far more effective.

00:19:56.610 --> 00:19:58.230 align:middle line:90%
Do you?

00:19:58.230 --> 00:20:01.170 align:middle line:84%
I had this experience of
teaching half my course

00:20:01.170 --> 00:20:04.440 align:middle line:84%
in reading before an eight-week
bout of student teaching,

00:20:04.440 --> 00:20:06.050 align:middle line:90%
and half afterward.

00:20:06.050 --> 00:20:08.490 align:middle line:84%
The students came
after the teaching just

00:20:08.490 --> 00:20:10.720 align:middle line:90%
loaded with questions.

00:20:10.720 --> 00:20:12.330 align:middle line:84%
And every question
they asked me I

00:20:12.330 --> 00:20:14.990 align:middle line:84%
had answered in the course
prior to the time they went out.

00:20:14.990 --> 00:20:15.490 align:middle line:90%
Yes.

00:20:15.490 --> 00:20:16.740 align:middle line:84%
But then it wasn't
meaningful at that time.

00:20:16.740 --> 00:20:18.068 align:middle line:90%
Wasn't meaningful at all.

00:20:18.068 --> 00:20:19.860 align:middle line:84%
And this is one of our
problems of teaching

00:20:19.860 --> 00:20:20.693 align:middle line:90%
before you're ready.

00:20:20.693 --> 00:20:22.380 align:middle line:84%
So I think that
we've got to change

00:20:22.380 --> 00:20:24.300 align:middle line:84%
much of our
professional education,

00:20:24.300 --> 00:20:26.010 align:middle line:90%
but not reading only.

00:20:26.010 --> 00:20:30.810 align:middle line:84%
A lot of it's going to have
to be done through experiences

00:20:30.810 --> 00:20:31.980 align:middle line:90%
with children.

00:20:31.980 --> 00:20:35.100 align:middle line:84%
Education, I think, is going
to become a laboratory subject.

00:20:35.100 --> 00:20:37.740 align:middle line:84%
And so we're going to see
much of our psychology,

00:20:37.740 --> 00:20:40.890 align:middle line:84%
other courses, taught through
laboratory approaches.

00:20:40.890 --> 00:20:43.590 align:middle line:84%
And I suppose that in part
means that some of the teaching

00:20:43.590 --> 00:20:47.200 align:middle line:84%
is going to go on after the
teacher has started to teach.

00:20:47.200 --> 00:20:50.403 align:middle line:84%
Well, I'm sure for
you and for me, I

00:20:50.403 --> 00:20:52.820 align:middle line:84%
suppose I learn more each year
than any of my students do.

00:20:52.820 --> 00:20:54.653 align:middle line:84%
Because I'm engaging
in a number of studies,

00:20:54.653 --> 00:20:56.510 align:middle line:84%
and I can make a
longer list of things

00:20:56.510 --> 00:20:59.350 align:middle line:84%
I'm ignorant on in my field
than a student can possibly

00:20:59.350 --> 00:21:01.180 align:middle line:90%
who doesn't know he's ignorant.

00:21:01.180 --> 00:21:03.920 align:middle line:84%
So naturally, as long as
you live in the moment

00:21:03.920 --> 00:21:06.110 align:middle line:84%
to the student,
the more likely he

00:21:06.110 --> 00:21:10.440 align:middle line:84%
is able to tackle the problems
of ignorance in the profession.

00:21:10.440 --> 00:21:11.850 align:middle line:90%
So we need a lot of research.

00:21:11.850 --> 00:21:14.100 align:middle line:84%
Sure, we don't know how to
teach all these youngsters.

00:21:14.100 --> 00:21:16.683 align:middle line:84%
I should've said earlier when I
said that some schools do very

00:21:16.683 --> 00:21:21.080 align:middle line:84%
well, some do badly, I
think that our best approach

00:21:21.080 --> 00:21:24.730 align:middle line:84%
to improving reading is going
to be in improving materials

00:21:24.730 --> 00:21:26.570 align:middle line:84%
of instruction, that
are self-directing and

00:21:26.570 --> 00:21:27.330 align:middle line:90%
self-correcting.

00:21:27.330 --> 00:21:27.830 align:middle line:90%
I see.

00:21:27.830 --> 00:21:29.413 align:middle line:84%
So that you can
broadcast those wider,

00:21:29.413 --> 00:21:32.000 align:middle line:84%
to make it easier for
teachers to teach well.

00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:34.700 align:middle line:84%
I think we'll
probably get farther

00:21:34.700 --> 00:21:37.340 align:middle line:84%
in building materials that
make it easy to serve a child

00:21:37.340 --> 00:21:40.430 align:middle line:84%
well than by just
telling him how.

00:21:40.430 --> 00:21:43.130 align:middle line:84%
I take it that among
those important materials

00:21:43.130 --> 00:21:45.210 align:middle line:84%
are those afforded
by the library.

00:21:45.210 --> 00:21:47.640 align:middle line:84%
I've heard you talk about the
importance of the library,

00:21:47.640 --> 00:21:50.288 align:middle line:84%
maybe particularly for
the advanced child,

00:21:50.288 --> 00:21:51.830 align:middle line:84%
the child who has
made good progress.

00:21:51.830 --> 00:21:52.700 align:middle line:90%
The one thing, by the way--

00:21:52.700 --> 00:21:54.230 align:middle line:84%
He needs to broaden
his experience.

00:21:54.230 --> 00:21:56.928 align:middle line:84%
I'm told here that you
go in, that you have lots

00:21:56.928 --> 00:21:58.220 align:middle line:90%
of elementary school libraries.

00:21:58.220 --> 00:22:00.833 align:middle line:84%
In New England, this is one
of the shames that we have.

00:22:00.833 --> 00:22:02.750 align:middle line:84%
Our elementary school
libraries are very poor.

00:22:02.750 --> 00:22:03.920 align:middle line:90%
I see.

00:22:03.920 --> 00:22:08.750 align:middle line:84%
We have relatively
few schools that

00:22:08.750 --> 00:22:10.170 align:middle line:90%
have a library in connection.

00:22:10.170 --> 00:22:15.020 align:middle line:84%
We depend upon 30 books
being sent in once a month,

00:22:15.020 --> 00:22:16.920 align:middle line:84%
and other kinds of
things which are useful.

00:22:16.920 --> 00:22:20.118 align:middle line:84%
Of course, in the smaller
towns, your public library

00:22:20.118 --> 00:22:21.785 align:middle line:84%
is often very closely
tied to the school

00:22:21.785 --> 00:22:23.050 align:middle line:90%
and is good cooperation.

00:22:23.050 --> 00:22:26.210 align:middle line:84%
But there's far too little in
the way of library equipment

00:22:26.210 --> 00:22:28.910 align:middle line:90%
in the schools in our area.

00:22:28.910 --> 00:22:31.130 align:middle line:84%
The library then is
the place the child

00:22:31.130 --> 00:22:34.323 align:middle line:84%
goes to go beyond the very
elementary kind of reading.

00:22:34.323 --> 00:22:35.990 align:middle line:84%
Perhaps he becomes a
[INAUDIBLE] reader.

00:22:35.990 --> 00:22:37.282 align:middle line:90%
That's where he learns to read.

00:22:37.282 --> 00:22:41.295 align:middle line:84%
You don't learn to read by
having reading lessons anymore

00:22:41.295 --> 00:22:43.670 align:middle line:84%
than you learn to play the
piano by having piano lessons.

00:22:43.670 --> 00:22:46.410 align:middle line:84%
It's the practice in between
that makes the difference.

00:22:46.410 --> 00:22:51.252 align:middle line:84%
And so the youngsters who spend
hours and hours in avid reading

00:22:51.252 --> 00:22:53.210 align:middle line:84%
are the ones-- that's
where reading is learned,

00:22:53.210 --> 00:22:54.627 align:middle line:84%
that's where reading
speed, that's

00:22:54.627 --> 00:22:57.860 align:middle line:84%
where reading vocabulary is
expanded, by voluntary reading

00:22:57.860 --> 00:23:01.160 align:middle line:84%
with a high degree
of interest surely.

00:23:01.160 --> 00:23:04.192 align:middle line:84%
Every good reader is a
person who's read a lot,

00:23:04.192 --> 00:23:06.150 align:middle line:84%
and has used the library
and found it exciting.

00:23:06.150 --> 00:23:08.810 align:middle line:84%
Dr. Durrell, I'm now going to
make a complaint that I have

00:23:08.810 --> 00:23:13.590 align:middle line:84%
heard from many businessmen
and employers of various kinds,

00:23:13.590 --> 00:23:17.900 align:middle line:84%
and that is about the applicants
for secretary's jobs who come

00:23:17.900 --> 00:23:20.530 align:middle line:90%
to us who cannot spell.

00:23:20.530 --> 00:23:22.970 align:middle line:84%
Now I'm not in a
position to generalize

00:23:22.970 --> 00:23:26.000 align:middle line:84%
about the extent of this, but
certainly a casual observation

00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:29.840 align:middle line:84%
would reveal that there is a
lot of very, very poor spelling

00:23:29.840 --> 00:23:31.220 align:middle line:90%
that goes on.

00:23:31.220 --> 00:23:35.163 align:middle line:84%
And it is a characteristic
of a lot of people.

00:23:35.163 --> 00:23:36.830 align:middle line:84%
I'm sure that this
is a subject that you

00:23:36.830 --> 00:23:39.050 align:middle line:90%
have given some thought to.

00:23:39.050 --> 00:23:41.330 align:middle line:84%
What about the teaching
of spelling, the learning

00:23:41.330 --> 00:23:43.100 align:middle line:90%
how to spell?

00:23:43.100 --> 00:23:49.370 align:middle line:84%
Well, the problem, of
course, is found in the fact

00:23:49.370 --> 00:23:52.298 align:middle line:84%
that English sounds have
different spellings.

00:23:52.298 --> 00:23:54.590 align:middle line:84%
So we're going to blame it
on the English language now.

00:23:54.590 --> 00:23:56.150 align:middle line:84%
Well, I think part,
of course we can.

00:23:56.150 --> 00:23:58.250 align:middle line:90%
I'll just take for example--

00:23:58.250 --> 00:24:01.280 align:middle line:84%
it's so very easy to demonstrate
the number of problems.

00:24:01.280 --> 00:24:03.230 align:middle line:84%
Frankly, I think the
men who are worried

00:24:03.230 --> 00:24:04.932 align:middle line:84%
because their
secretaries can't spell,

00:24:04.932 --> 00:24:06.890 align:middle line:84%
that means that nobody
can spell in the office.

00:24:06.890 --> 00:24:07.780 align:middle line:90%
[LAUGHTER]

00:24:07.780 --> 00:24:10.010 align:middle line:84%
So the secretary
can [INAUDIBLE]..

00:24:10.010 --> 00:24:12.980 align:middle line:84%
You have to have
somebody that can spell.

00:24:12.980 --> 00:24:15.470 align:middle line:84%
Spelling doesn't correlate
with intelligence.

00:24:15.470 --> 00:24:18.680 align:middle line:84%
It's bad because of the variable
nature of English spelling.

00:24:18.680 --> 00:24:20.840 align:middle line:84%
The more you think,
the less sure you are.

00:24:20.840 --> 00:24:22.670 align:middle line:84%
You ask a person, how
do you spell a word?

00:24:22.670 --> 00:24:24.620 align:middle line:84%
And they say, I'll
write it and see.

00:24:24.620 --> 00:24:26.270 align:middle line:84%
Then the next thing they
say, if you hadn't asked me,

00:24:26.270 --> 00:24:27.187 align:middle line:90%
I could have told you.

00:24:27.187 --> 00:24:28.190 align:middle line:90%
Now I'm not sure.

00:24:28.190 --> 00:24:30.980 align:middle line:84%
Because of course, it
doesn't follow any logic.

00:24:30.980 --> 00:24:35.230 align:middle line:84%
For example, those of us
who work in this field,

00:24:35.230 --> 00:24:38.680 align:middle line:84%
you count words, you
count sounds in words.

00:24:38.680 --> 00:24:41.100 align:middle line:84%
The linguistics boys are
playing with this also.

00:24:41.100 --> 00:24:43.070 align:middle line:90%
But take the sounds, air.

00:24:43.070 --> 00:24:44.490 align:middle line:90%
How do you spell "air"?

00:24:44.490 --> 00:24:46.710 align:middle line:84%
Well, I'll turn to
the board again.

00:24:46.710 --> 00:24:48.770 align:middle line:84%
The most common way you
spell "air" in English

00:24:48.770 --> 00:24:55.580 align:middle line:84%
is A-I-R. And you can
spell it, of course,

00:24:55.580 --> 00:24:57.500 align:middle line:90%
the second most common way.

00:24:57.500 --> 00:25:00.720 align:middle line:90%
E-A-R in primary grade words.

00:25:00.720 --> 00:25:07.040 align:middle line:84%
And the third most common way
of spelling "air" is C-A-R-E.

00:25:07.040 --> 00:25:08.752 align:middle line:84%
Well now, how do
you spell "air"?

00:25:08.752 --> 00:25:09.710 align:middle line:90%
You've got two choices.

00:25:09.710 --> 00:25:10.550 align:middle line:90%
What's the logic behind it?

00:25:10.550 --> 00:25:11.675 align:middle line:90%
There's no logic behind it.

00:25:11.675 --> 00:25:14.420 align:middle line:84%
You have to have an image
behind each of these words.

00:25:14.420 --> 00:25:18.530 align:middle line:84%
So that actually phonics
enables you to misspell words

00:25:18.530 --> 00:25:20.238 align:middle line:90%
correctly.

00:25:20.238 --> 00:25:21.530 align:middle line:90%
So this is one of the problems.

00:25:21.530 --> 00:25:22.947 align:middle line:84%
Well, you've now
demonstrated it's

00:25:22.947 --> 00:25:25.170 align:middle line:84%
impossible to learn to
spell well, I think.

00:25:25.170 --> 00:25:26.690 align:middle line:90%
No.

00:25:26.690 --> 00:25:28.400 align:middle line:84%
We've been playing
with this quite a lot.

00:25:28.400 --> 00:25:31.240 align:middle line:90%
You have to teach in spelling.

00:25:31.240 --> 00:25:33.530 align:middle line:84%
You can't do it by
symbolic analysis

00:25:33.530 --> 00:25:36.950 align:middle line:90%
or by phonetic analysis.

00:25:36.950 --> 00:25:41.440 align:middle line:84%
It's got to be done, we find,
by imagery behind the word,

00:25:41.440 --> 00:25:44.150 align:middle line:84%
as though all words
were homonyms.

00:25:44.150 --> 00:25:47.240 align:middle line:90%
Take this one.

00:25:47.240 --> 00:25:48.050 align:middle line:90%
Same one-- "pare."

00:25:48.050 --> 00:25:55.320 align:middle line:90%


00:25:55.320 --> 00:25:56.820 align:middle line:84%
You do it through
a usage technique.

00:25:56.820 --> 00:26:00.720 align:middle line:84%
You say, well, which of
these mean two partners?

00:26:00.720 --> 00:26:03.002 align:middle line:84%
And you have to have the
image behind the word.

00:26:03.002 --> 00:26:04.710 align:middle line:84%
Not only the form of
the word, but you've

00:26:04.710 --> 00:26:08.070 align:middle line:84%
got to have this
evoke images, you see.

00:26:08.070 --> 00:26:09.630 align:middle line:90%
How about a pear-shaped person?

00:26:09.630 --> 00:26:13.900 align:middle line:84%
Then the image of E-A-R has
to come to mind, you see.

00:26:13.900 --> 00:26:16.800 align:middle line:84%
And if you're cutting down
things, paring a budget

00:26:16.800 --> 00:26:19.683 align:middle line:84%
or paring your nails-- because
nobody pares budgets anymore.

00:26:19.683 --> 00:26:20.600 align:middle line:90%
Washington especially.

00:26:20.600 --> 00:26:21.100 align:middle line:90%
[LAUGHTER]

00:26:21.100 --> 00:26:22.320 align:middle line:90%
You can see my biases.

00:26:22.320 --> 00:26:25.920 align:middle line:84%
But at any rate, you
have to have the other.

00:26:25.920 --> 00:26:29.430 align:middle line:84%
And consequently, it is the
meaning and imagery that you

00:26:29.430 --> 00:26:30.880 align:middle line:90%
have to emphasize in spelling.

00:26:30.880 --> 00:26:32.820 align:middle line:84%
And so we developed quite a
number of imagery techniques

00:26:32.820 --> 00:26:33.862 align:middle line:90%
to keep the meaning high.

00:26:33.862 --> 00:26:36.580 align:middle line:84%
And it's quite surprising
that this level--

00:26:36.580 --> 00:26:39.420 align:middle line:84%
you see, part of the
jokes we get in this field

00:26:39.420 --> 00:26:40.785 align:middle line:90%
are such things as this.

00:26:40.785 --> 00:26:46.320 align:middle line:90%


00:26:46.320 --> 00:26:47.760 align:middle line:90%
I'll see if I can think of one.

00:26:47.760 --> 00:26:51.510 align:middle line:84%
A long stair led to the
lady on the balcony.

00:26:51.510 --> 00:26:52.610 align:middle line:90%
How did you get there?

00:26:52.610 --> 00:26:54.080 align:middle line:90%
Which kind of stair led to her?

00:26:54.080 --> 00:26:54.720 align:middle line:90%
I see, yes.

00:26:54.720 --> 00:26:58.800 align:middle line:84%
Or the duke found the duchess
sitting on another pier.

00:26:58.800 --> 00:27:00.040 align:middle line:90%
There are problems there.

00:27:00.040 --> 00:27:03.150 align:middle line:84%
So really, you have to learn
almost one word at a time.

00:27:03.150 --> 00:27:04.440 align:middle line:90%
[INTERPOSING VOICES]

00:27:04.440 --> 00:27:05.010 align:middle line:90%
Exactly.

00:27:05.010 --> 00:27:06.593 align:middle line:84%
And actually, the
writing vocabularies

00:27:06.593 --> 00:27:08.790 align:middle line:90%
are not so awfully large.

00:27:08.790 --> 00:27:11.670 align:middle line:84%
Another one was, if a man
has two pairs in his hand,

00:27:11.670 --> 00:27:13.170 align:middle line:84%
is he making salad
or playing poker?

00:27:13.170 --> 00:27:13.670 align:middle line:90%
You see.

00:27:13.670 --> 00:27:14.610 align:middle line:90%
I see.

00:27:14.610 --> 00:27:17.130 align:middle line:84%
So the imagery has to
be behind the word.

00:27:17.130 --> 00:27:19.200 align:middle line:84%
It is virtually
a learning a word

00:27:19.200 --> 00:27:20.617 align:middle line:90%
at a time with the right image.

00:27:20.617 --> 00:27:21.450 align:middle line:90%
That's very helpful.

00:27:21.450 --> 00:27:25.795 align:middle line:84%
We must teach all these words
as though they were homonyms.

00:27:25.795 --> 00:27:27.170 align:middle line:84%
Thank you very
much, Dr. Durrell.

00:27:27.170 --> 00:27:29.320 align:middle line:90%
You're welcome.

00:27:29.320 --> 00:27:45.914 align:middle line:90%