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Batool Zaidi interview
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- OK, we're recording.
- And here everybody comes.
- Hello.
- Welcome everyone.
- We're just going to wait a moment
- while everybody gets filled in.
- We'll check that you're all in and loaded up.
- Hello and welcome.
- It's so good to see you all today.
- Thank you for coming.
- My name's Athena, and I'm with Outreach and Continuing
- Education and Western C.A.R.E.S. here at Western Washington
- University.
- I'll be acting as your host today
- for this session of Stories to Tell.
- Just a note, the interview today is being recorded
- and will be archived by the Center
- for Pacific Northwest Studies and the South Asian-American
- Digital Archives, and they will be made available to the public
- for research, teaching, and education.
- A quick note about Western C.A.R.E.S.
- We started this as a resource for us
- to connect and share and maintain
- our sense of community and engagement during these days
- where we're trying to stay home and stay healthy.
- These are online interactive sessions
- put on by your colleagues and peers who are so generously
- volunteering their time to share their interests
- and experience with you.
- As your host, I'm going to introduce your session,
- and then I'm here for any tech support you might need.
- Please know that you entered the call today
- with your sound muted and your video
- off because we are recording these,
- and that helps us to keep the video focused on our speakers.
- There will be time at the end where
- we will turn that sound on so you can ask questions
- if you'd like.
- And if you're not comfortable with that,
- there is a chat option on the side
- and you can type your questions in.
- And we'll be monitoring that as well.
- So thank you so much for being here today.
- And now, I'm going to hand it back over to Dharitri
- to introduce our session.
- Thank you so much.
- Welcome, everyone.
- This is Stories to Tell and I'm Dharitri Bhattacharjee.
- I teach in the History department at Western.
- In this oral history series, our goal
- is to explore a diversity of South Asian perspectives
- on COVID-19.
- The region of South Asia comprises India, Pakistan,
- Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Bhutan, Nepal, Maldives, Afghanistan.
- For the next three weeks on Tuesdays and Thursdays at 2
- PM Pacific Standard Time, we will be
- bringing for you a new voice.
- I will ask questions for the next 30 minutes.
- And after that, we really encourage you to ask questions
- to our guest Batool Zaidi.
- Minorities and immigrants are routinely
- underrepresented, absent in archival collections,
- so I could not be more excited to be convening this series.
- Although I will be asking the questions, a lot of people
- have made this happen.
- I would in particular like to acknowledge our Western C.A.R.E.S.
- program specialist Athena Roth and Archivist at Center
- for Northwest Pacific Studies Ruth Steele.
- And finally, a welcome to Batool Zaidi.
- She is an assistant professor in the Sociology department
- at Western, and she will talk to us, among other things,
- about immigration visas and response to the pandemic.
- So Batool, first question for you.
- Tell us a little bit about yourself
- and how did you end up in Western?
- OK, well first, thanks for having me.
- OK, so a super quick, how did I end up at Western.
- I am from Pakistan.
- I grew up in Lahore.
- I did my high school there.
- And then I came to the US for my undergrad.
- I went to this really small liberal arts
- college, Mount Holyoke.
- I did my Bachelors in Economics, then
- I went home, worked for a year, and then
- did my Masters in London, LSE in Population and Development
- Studies.
- And then after that, I was working
- in Pakistan for this research NGO
- doing work on reproductive health, girls education
- for five years in Islamabad.
- And at some point, to make progress or get promoted,
- you needed a PhD.
- So I applied to a bunch of different places in the US
- and decided to go to UNC Chapel Hill
- because it has a really good population center.
- And then I finished my PhD.
- And here I am at Western.
- I came to Western because A, they offered me a job,
- but also because Western's Sociology department
- is a little bit unique in that within the undergrad program,
- they have a focus on Population Study/Demography.
- And it's a teaching school, and I really
- wanted to be at a teaching school.
- So I am in Bellingham now.
- Tell us a little bit about your experience in Mount Holyoke,
- in the sense that you arrived there, start your quarter,
- and soon after arriving, 9/11 happens.
- And you are from Pakistan.
- What did it mean?
- What did that mean?
- Yeah, so actually because I started in 2001,
- 9/11 was exactly a week after I'd been on campus.
- And this was my first time outside
- of South Asia in general.
- But yeah, I think I just remember from the day itself,
- I remember--
- I have this vivid image of all of these girls
- around me watching TV and crying.
- And I just didn't even know what was happening.
- And then of course post that, I think I was at Mount Holyoke.
- So I was really protected from a lot of what was happening,
- a lot of the anti-Muslim sentiment in the US.
- Yeah, I think I've only ever known a post-9/11 America.
- So it was really hard for me to know how it shifted.
- Do you think it was partly because it was a Liberal Arts
- campus?
- Or also the fact that Mount Holyoke
- has an extremely diverse campus, a lot
- of international students?
- Well, yeah.
- I think it's like A, Mount Holyoke
- is in a really, really small town.
- Everyone lives on campus, so you never really
- have to leave campus.
- That's like your world.
- And also Mount Holyoke has like 30% international students,
- and so I was around a lot of international students.
- Most of my friends were international students.
- And so there is a way in, which I
- think that made dealing with everything
- that was happening easier.
- So I remember chatting with you earlier,
- and you said you were one of the reasons you ended up
- in Mount Holyoke is because your sister had attended.
- So were you curious to find out if she had a different campus
- experience than you before 9/11?
- Because it's almost like a shift happened after 9/11 in the US.
- Yeah, so was I curious?
- I don't know.
- I think I was just an 18-year-old trying
- to navigate a completely new world,
- and a world that was hostile, then, to Muslims.
- But my sister always had spoke about the US
- being super friendly, super easy to get into.
- She never had any problem at airports.
- So that was her experience.
- But did I try to find out or think about it?
- Not really, because I was just trying to get through it
- myself.
- Right.
- So as you mentioned, I mean there
- was a sudden rise in Islamophobia
- after 9/11 in the US.
- So how was navigating that outside your campus?
- Yes, I think--
- You mentioned airports as well.
- It's a very standard story that a lot of immigrants,
- especially from countries if they are Muslim,
- if they have a certain passport, they always encounter trouble
- at the airports.
- What's your experience been like?
- So I think I am lucky in that my name is not obviously Muslim.
- And I don't outwardly look like a Muslim.
- I could be any kind of South Asian.
- So in terms of like active, interactional discrimination
- or hate behaviors, none of that really happened to me.
- But yes, I of course experienced what
- was happening at the airport.
- I think I've only ever known the US like border/airport
- to be a really stressful place, just because you never
- knew what was going to happen, if they were going
- to let you go through or not.
- Often they send you back for these extra security checks.
- I remember I was coming back from my study abroad,
- and they just they took me back.
- And not even just the second security
- check, but like those little rooms
- that you see in the movies.
- And they left me there for hours.
- And so definitely things like that happened.
- And this is when all your papers are intact and in order.
- Yes.
- This is 100% when I'm there "legally".
- And, if you don't mind my asking,
- because you said you don't visibly sort of look Muslim--
- you don't wear a burqa or something.
- Are you a practicing Muslim?
- Are you religious?
- Or would you call yourself a practicing Muslim?
- I mean I would definitely say I identify as a Muslim.
- On a scale of 1 to 10 of practicing things,
- not very high.
- Right.
- So the reason why I'm asking is have you found yourself
- in situations where you've had to talk about Pakistan,
- defend Pakistan, defend Islam, defend women in Islam,
- like have you found yourself needing
- to have these conversations despite the fact
- that you might not always feel invested in it so much?
- You might be just thinking about your research,
- but you sort of have to have these conversations sometimes.
- Yeah so I can't honestly really say
- a lot about my Mount Holyoke time.
- It was almost 20 years ago.
- But if I think about my time in the US during my PhD,
- I have definitely had moments where I have to defend Pakistan
- or how women in Pakistan are, especially because my research
- looks at women in Pakistan.
- And so whether it's your advisor or some professor
- you meet or even other students, and they're
- like question and answer, will ask
- these questions about Pakistan and women in Pakistan
- and whether they're treated a specific way.
- I think it's interesting because ever since I've
- come to Western, which hasn't been that long, it's
- just a year, nobody ever explicitly talks
- about Islam with me.
- I feel like Islam is something that just doesn't come up,
- or being Muslim.
- It's almost like people would rather not talk about it,
- and they can have different reasons for that.
- Right, I'm not a practicing Hindu,
- but I find myself talking about Hinduism a lot.
- It's also because I teach South Asia.
- And so that's where the question was coming from.
- But I find myself saying oh no, in Hinduism,
- beef eating is not forbidden.
- So that's where the question was coming from.
- But you don't get questions from colleagues about Islam?
- Like just questions--
- No.
- I mean I think it's definitely also-- like,
- I can see why people would ask questions about Hinduism,
- especially in the West.
- It might have some sort of mystery, like oh, yoga
- comes from India, some kind of curiosity about it,
- where as I feel like with Islam or being Muslim,
- it's probably like two things [? that are there ?]..
- One is I don't think it's politically correct, especially
- for academics, to kind of ask you about Islam,
- or what is Islam or not.
- But also, I think people feel like they already
- know what Islam is.
- And so it's already represented so much in the media
- as being this one thing that I don't
- think people have questions about, well
- what is it actually?
- That's interesting.
- And that's, I think, also a factor
- that you're not a historian.
- You're a sociologist, so it's a different kind of questions
- that you're asked.
- But also, I really find it interesting
- that you say that people have set notions about Islam,
- but about Hinduism, there is genuine curiosity.
- So you get asked.
- So what was UNC like after Mount Holyoke?
- During your time there, the shootings happened.
- I think of Jordanian American and
- some Syrian American students.
- What was the atmosphere like there?
- Yeah I think for me I noticed, even though I
- was at Mount Holyoke right after 9/11,
- I think for me the anti-Muslim sentiment/Islamophobia
- was infinitely more present in my experience at UNC.
- Not specifically things happening to me,
- but just I think during those years
- there was generally a lot of Islamophobia
- and anti-Muslim rhetoric and policies.
- So yeah, I was really conscious of it then.
- And yeah, like you mentioned, there
- was those three UNC students.
- They were all like 18, 20-years-old.
- And they got shot by their neighbor.
- So it was definitely very present.
- And I was really conscious of being a Muslim woman.
- And for UNC, you came to Western.
- And at UNC you were a student, but at Western you're
- now an international faculty.
- So in terms of immigration status,
- what are some of the changes that happened?
- So when I was a student here on a student visa, which is the F1
- and it's joint with an I-20 that your university has.
- And then with the student visa, you're
- allowed once you graduate or finish your degree,
- you've got one year of Optional Practical Training.
- So you're allowed to work in the US for a year.
- And that's what I was on this past year at Western.
- But then once you're done with that,
- you can switch to a work visa, which is the H-1B.
- And the H-1B has two aspects to it.
- One is that your university needs
- to apply for you to get the approval to work in the US,
- and so there the approval aspect of it.
- And then there's is the actual getting the H-1B visa
- stamp, which you have to do by going back to your country
- and going to the Embassy.
- So how has your experience been at Western
- as an international faculty?
- It's very different from UNC, which
- has a larger sort of body of international students
- and faculty, and Western doesn't have as much.
- So what's your experience been in terms of support
- for an international faculty?
- I think Western is, like you said,
- a really different institution than UNC.
- And so it also has fewer resources available to it.
- But in that way, I have felt like a lack of support
- for international faculty.
- It's not even that there isn't support
- for international faculty, it's just that it's not
- something people consider.
- Whether it's your department or your college,
- the fact that you are international
- or you're on a visa isn't even part of any conversation.
- I think there's a lack of awareness almost about it.
- So you said that there were two aspects to the H-1B visa,
- one was getting the approval, and then
- the other one is getting the visa itself.
- And you've finished your one year of OPT.
- So what happens right now?
- Are you not able to travel back to Pakistan?
- You need to visit a consulate.
- So what happens to your work situation in Western
- in the middle of a pandemic?
- Right, so I think that my case is particularly tricky.
- Because I was lucky enough that my approval was processed
- right before the pandemic happened and everything
- shut down.
- So I have the approval to work in the US,
- but I wasn't able to go back home to get my visa.
- And so now I guess I'm legally here and working,
- but because I don't have a visa, I
- can't leave the US because then I re-enter.
- Because you can't enter the US without a visa, and so
- I wouldn't be able to come back.
- And so therefore, I'm here.
- I can't go home.
- Forget seeing my family, I can't go home
- for research or anything.
- So how do you think you will navigate the situation?
- You're legal to work right now, but are you
- still legal to work without the visa, say, one year from now?
- I have no idea.
- And so I think that's been the most stressful part,
- because I have the approval to work right now,
- but you don't know--
- or at least I don't know--
- if the administration decides to cancel those approvals,
- if you don't have a visa, or if they extend the executive order
- that suspended work visas, if they extend it into the future,
- what does that mean for me specifically?
- Do I want to be in the US when I can't
- leave to do any of my research or to see
- my family for not just these six months, but a much longer time?
- So yeah, I have no idea what it means
- or if I will have a job in a year.
- So as of now, it almost seems like the choice
- is between having your career and then seeing your family.
- And what about the executive orders?
- Have you been affected by them?
- There have been some for students too,
- which was recently rescinded.
- And how did Western respond to that?
- Yeah, so I have definitely been affected
- by the executive order, because the executive order that's
- still in place is the one that is suspending the issuance
- of any new each H-1B visas.
- So that means I can't get a visa right now,
- whereas the international student one, he made the order
- but then he took it back.
- So tell me a little bit about your research.
- And I know you've been hired at Western for research.
- And how does the pandemic affect your work then?
- Yeah so my research is all international.
- A lot, I have a project that I have to do in Pakistan,
- and then I was hoping to start a new project that
- was a comparative project with Pakistan, India,
- or just South Asia with Latin America, so Mexico, Ecuador.
- And of course now, I can't start that or even develop
- that project.
- And the project in Pakistan, I was
- supposed to be back this summer going to the scene
- to do a survey.
- I can't do that.
- So yes, I have to redesign my entire research trajectory.
- That's very big, redesigning your entire research project.
- Yes it is.
- And I think because of coronavirus and the pandemic
- and having to teach online, at Western told
- assistant professors.
- There there's this understanding that your tenure clock has
- been moved forward a year, and you
- weren't required to have your teaching evaluations, etc.
- But I think there is no conversation about what
- do we do, or how do we-- or should we even-- change
- these requirements or expectations
- for people whose entire research project has been thrown off?
- And I think that probably has to do with the fact
- that no one even really-- like I said,
- no one really talks about international students,
- or I mean international faculty so much.
- Because when this international student executive order happened,
- Western sent an email out to everyone in the university.
- But when the executive order happened
- that was concerning the work visas, we got an email,
- but it was just an email sent to the international faculty
- and staff at Western saying that Western supports us.
- But it wasn't even sent to the broader faculty and staff.
- So no one really even knows properly what's happening.
- And so I think it's like the burden or the onus
- is on us to then have those conversations
- with our chairs, with our dean, or our fellow faculty members.
- That's interesting.
- So you're saying that there is this--
- and despite the fact that compared to other universities,
- Western doesn't have as big an international student
- population.
- But why do you think there is the prioritization
- of the international students more
- than the international faculty?
- I mean, both of them are assets to any educational institution.
- Yeah, I mean there's no way for me to know exactly why,
- but I would think it's partly like,
- you know international students.
- They bring in money.
- And so in that way, they play a big role.
- And I know Western has been trying to recruit
- more international students.
- I think also advocating for student visas is
- different from advocating for work visas,
- especially if it's work that is done by the upper middle class,
- or the educated class.
- So it seems like you have a PhD, and when you have a PhD,
- you're considered to have some kind of cultural capital.
- It's sort of the highest educational degree
- that you can get.
- It's sort of sought after.
- But with the H-1B situation with the executive order,
- it puts you in a very, very tricky position.
- So have you had times where you are
- sort of contemplating that even despite the PhD, being
- on this different kind of H-1B visa,
- you're still like any other immigrant.
- It's very common for the last two years,
- thinking about the wall, thinking
- about undocumented immigrants from south of the border,
- did you find yourself represented in the stories
- that you heard before?
- And right now, how do you feel compared to where you are?
- And what's the rhetoric around undocumented immigrants?
- Yeah I think first of all, I think
- it was a really big shift going from being
- an international student to an international faculty.
- I mean generally, you think that you will get your PhD
- and get a job and so there's going to be less precarity,
- but in a way, the F1 visa is more predictable than what's
- going to happen with the H-1B.
- And even something as small as the F1 visa,
- you get for a four to five year time period.
- Because of some issue between the US and Pakistan,
- I would have to in any case, under normal circumstances,
- renew my H-1B every single year.
- And so it's adding on the stressful layer
- of every single year, you are not
- exactly sure if it's going to happen or not.
- And I think as a student, I never really thought of myself
- as an immigrant in the US.
- But now that I am faculty and I have a job here,
- I definitely have started thinking of myself
- as an immigrant.
- And I think that realization really
- hit home when this whole executive order happened.
- And I had to, not the first time, but in
- a different way deal with the anti-immigrant stance.
- And it's been really difficult processing all of it
- and dealing with this uncertainty.
- But it's just made me think about the immigration
- narrative and experiences of undocumented immigrants.
- And I can't even imagine that level of uncertainty, stress,
- fear that someone has to navigate
- every single day of their life and just
- not knowing what's going to happen in your future.
- And so I think I was feeling, like in the last month or so,
- I was feeling really a little bit like angry,
- but also like, why are other people not speaking up
- about this?
- But I think it's like if you compare it,
- then other people right now are not even really speaking
- about what's happening in the detention centers or the wall.
- The anti-immigrant stance is so much bigger than this.
- Yeah.
- So it looks like documentation also
- did not lessen the precarity of your situation.
- How is your family in Pakistan?
- How's the pandemic faring there?
- Yeah my family in Pakistan is OK.
- And most of my siblings are all over the world,
- but my mother is in Pakistan.
- And one of my brothers is, and my extended family.
- So they're doing OK.
- I think, as is the case almost everywhere, the number of cases
- is rising.
- Actually I know at least half my family, my extended family,
- has had COVID and thankfully it wasn't really that bad.
- They all had a fever and then got better.
- But I think they're trying to navigate it
- as best as they can.
- And what about the government?
- Are you also finding yourself comparing
- Pakistan's handling of the pandemic and US handling
- of the pandemic?
- I mean I think comparing Pakistan
- and the US is a little bit like apples and oranges.
- The US is the wealthiest country in the world,
- and so it has infinitely more resources at its disposal
- to respond to the pandemic than a country like Pakistan.
- I don't think Pakistan's response has been that great,
- but I am not doing any comparisons
- because I think similar to most other people,
- I'm still trying to process how the US is responding,
- or not responding.
- It's a question that I'm asking everyone in the series,
- and so was there a moment when you realized that you're living
- through a global pandemic?
- It's historic, so can you describe the moment
- if there was one?
- Yeah, I think for me there wasn't one specific moment.
- It's been a very slow and painful realization.
- I was definitely finalized or hit home
- when he passed the executive order.
- And just realizing that this was going
- to go on for I don't know how long,
- and I don't have any control over what's
- going to happen next.
- Well is there anything--
- I think I've asked you a lot of questions and none of them
- were happy questions.
- There was nothing more happy [AUDIO CUTS OUT]
- looks like there's a lot of uncertainty in your life.
- And I feel bad because the journey of an academic in ways
- gets worse after the PhD.
- Apparently.
- I mean, getting a tenure track job is a big deal,
- and you have that, but it still hasn't helped.
- So--
- The weather is finally nice in Bellingham, so there is that.
- There's that.
- Well that's great.
- Is there anything else you would like to share with the audience
- or for future whoever will be listening to you?
- No, I don't think so.
- Is that it?
- OK.
- Thank you so much Batool for taking the time
- to join this interview series.
- And I'll hand it over Athena.
- And I really encourage everyone who's
- attending-- thank you for coming.
- And please I encourage to have a conversation with Batool.
- Ask some questions if you want to.
- Yes please, thank you.
- I did make it so that you could unmute yourselves and ask
- any questions that you may have.
- We would love to hear from you.
- And either you can put your questions in the chat,
- or you have to turn the video on, or maybe
- just start speaking.
- Amber, you have a question?
- I always have a question.
- [LAUGHS] Hi Batool, thank you so much for sharing your story.
- It's really moving.
- And I was just reflecting on the precarity
- that you're describing.
- As if the life of a tenure track assistant professor
- isn't precarious enough, to also be managing distance
- and the uncertainty of the pandemic--
- and I partly just wanted to say congratulations
- on winning the tenure track job lottery.
- That's a big deal, and I hope that you find that support
- from among your colleagues.
- I was really struck by what you described
- about starting to see yourself as an immigrant
- and then seeing your experience reflected in other people's
- experiences I wonder if you can talk a little bit more
- about that transition, what it means
- for you to start to think of yourself as an immigrant,
- and really whether you envision staying in the US
- as a permanent possibility for you.
- Yeah I think I felt more like an immigrant now than earlier just
- because once you get a job, it feels
- like you're part of like society in a different way than when
- you were just a student in a university somewhere.
- And so it's like I'm part of the economy.
- I have a job.
- I think the idea of getting this tenure track job
- is so that I can sort of settle down and stay in one place
- and build a home or find community.
- And so I think it was this shift in thinking
- about the US as the place that I was going to be long term.
- That made it happen.
- And then I forget the second part of your question?
- I just was wondering whether considering all the challenges
- that you've experienced, especially in the last year--
- I mean, I know you've been in the US for a long time
- off and on throughout your education--
- whether you envision staying in the US
- as a long term possibility for you.
- Is it something that-- really I guess, considering all this,
- is that something that you want?
- Yeah so I think I'm going to try to process
- all of that side of it right now, because I think definitely
- that was my plan.
- And I think now it almost feels like it's not even up to me
- anymore.
- There's a really strong possibility that in six months,
- I find out that I have to leave the country.
- And so of course, when you have that very, very real
- possibility right in front of you,
- you have to think about where else can I go?
- Or what's my plan going to be if this doesn't work out?
- Thank you.
- Thank you, Amber.
- You were missed on Thursday.
- You ask such thoughtful questions.
- I notice when you're not with us.
- So I just wanted you to know we appreciate your thoughts
- and questions.
- So thank you.
- Thanks.
- Thank you.
- Yeah, is there anybody else?
- Anything they wanted to ask?
- Or like we were saying, if you'd feel more comfortable
- in the chat, I'll give you all a moment.
- I know sometimes it takes a minute also
- to reach the unmute button.
- So I'll just wait a second.
- Anybody?
- Well thank you to you all.
- Thank you so much for being here today.
- This is wonderful.
- Another insightful and wonderful conversation.
- Thank you, Dharitri for bringing this together,
- and Batool for another great session of Stories to Tell.
- And I'll hand it over to you Dharitri
- to talk about what's to come and for others
- that want to join us in the future.
- So thank you for coming.
- Our series will go on for two to three more weeks,
- and give an excellent lineup.
- So please keep coming back.
- Talk to your friends, colleagues,
- and encourage them to join if they have the time.
- And on a very different note, the background
- that you see for Batool Zaidi, that's
- actually not a Zoom background.
- It's an artwork by her mom.
- And I just--
- I mean, she just told me right before.
- And since then I've been constantly looking
- at the painting.
- So I just thought it deserves mention.
- And thank you for coming and listening to this.
- And Batool, thanks again for sharing your time.
- Thank you.
- Thanks for having me.
- Thank you, Amber.
- Thanks everyone for coming--
- Hakeem, Ruth, everyone.
- Thank you.
- Thank you.
- Thank you, everyone.
- Wonderful to see you all.
- Have a wonderful afternoon.
- We hope to see you soon.
- Goodbye.