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Kajori Chaudhuri interview
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- Thank you so much for joining us.
- My name's Athena.
- I'm with Outreach and Continuing Education at Western C.A.R.E.S.
- here at Western Washington University.
- And I'll be acting as your host today
- for this session of Stories to Tell.
- Just a note-- the interview today is being recording,
- and we will be archiving these for the Center for Pacific
- Northwest Studies and the South Asian-American
- Digital Archives.
- And they will be made available to the public for research
- and teaching and education.
- And a little bit quickly about Western C.A.R.E.S.
- We started this as a resource for us
- to connect and share and maintain
- our sense of community and engagement during these days
- where we're trying to stay home, and stay healthy, and take
- care of each other.
- These are online, interactive sessions
- put on by your colleagues and peers who
- are volunteering their time to share these interests
- and experiences with you.
- As your host, I'm going to introduce your session.
- And then I'm here to provide any tech support you may need.
- Know that you entered the call today
- with your sound muted and your video
- off because we are recording today,
- and that helps us keep the video focused on our speakers.
- There will be time at the end where, if you'd like,
- we'll turn on your sound for questions.
- If you're not comfortable with that,
- there's also a chat option in Zoom, often on the side,
- where you can type in your question.
- And we'll be watching that as well.
- So thank you so much for joining us.
- And now I'm going to hand it over.
- Thanks, Dharitri.
- Welcome, everyone.
- This is Stories to Tell.
- I'm Dharitri Bhattacharjee.
- I teach in the history department
- at Western Washington University.
- In this oral history series, our goal
- is to explore a diversity of South Asian perspectives
- on COVID-19.
- The region of South Asia comprises India, Bangladesh,
- Pakistan, Nepal, Bhutan, Sri Lanka, Maldives
- and Afghanistan.
- This is the penultimate week, actually.
- We have one more week to go.
- And on Tuesdays and Thursdays at 2:00 PM Pacific Standard Time,
- we have been bringing forth, and we will be bringing forth,
- a new voice for you.
- I will ask questions for 30 minutes.
- And after that, we highly encourage
- you to ask questions to our guest, who
- today is Kajori Chaudhuri.
- Minorities and immigrants are routinely
- absent and underrepresented in archival collections.
- Hence, I could not be more proud to be convening this series.
- I will be conducting the interview,
- but there are a lot of people who
- have enabled this to happen.
- I have to acknowledge the contribution of Western C.A.R.E.S.'
- program specialist, Athena Roth, and Center
- for Pacific and Northwest Studies archivist, Ruth Steele.
- And thank you, Kajori Chaudhuri, our guest today.
- She's Assistant Commissioner at New York City
- Commission on Human Rights.
- And we will start off by asking Kajori, I think,
- tell us a little bit about growing up in--
- is-- oh yeah, sorry.
- I was like, where's my interview?
- So tell us a little bit about growing up
- in India and what community meant for you when
- you were growing up.
- What meaning did it have for you?
- Thank you so much for having me on the Stories to Tell,
- Dharitri.
- So yeah, I mean, I grew up in a very different India.
- I grew up in a very middle class old neighborhood, what
- is often, in Bangla, called para, in Central Kolkata.
- And I was exposed to what a close knit community means.
- People kind of knew each other by name.
- Everyone-- as a young person growing up,
- I would call others who were older than me
- as so and so aunt or so and so uncle
- or so and so brother or so-and-so sister.
- People looked out for each other, stood by each other
- in difficult times.
- And I deeply cherish those moments
- of what it means to belong and what it means
- to be part of a community.
- Now, when I'm here, and community outreach is
- a big part of what I do, I often look back
- and critically think about, who was missing
- from this community, right?
- Like who was not there?
- Who did I not see?
- And needless to say, it's sometimes--
- like I think about Muslim neighbors,
- caste oppressed neighbors.
- I don't remember any of them in that little community of mine.
- I also recall that visibly young boys or older adult men
- would occupy a lot of the public spaces.
- Like, you know, they would congregate every day
- to socialize in public spaces.
- And women were missing from those spaces, right?
- So like taking a step back in my life now,
- I am very cognizant of that.
- Because as I do the work now, I always
- think about who are we missing in this community dialogue?
- Thank you so much.
- And also quickly, you are from Kolkata, which
- is an eastern city in India.
- It's almost close to Bangladesh.
- And so community was my first question, very nuanced answer
- to that.
- And you know how it sort of keeps
- changing as you think about it.
- What about social work?
- You are a professional social worker now.
- But what did social work mean to you
- sort of when you were in India as a kid?
- I have a story to share here.
- So when I was contemplating getting my graduate degree
- in social work, I visited a very famous poet in Kolkata
- with a friend of mine.
- And, you know, he was just asking what our plans
- were, what we wanted to do.
- And I told him that I was going to study to be a social worker.
- And he mocked my choice and rebuked me and said, why do you
- need a degree in social work?
- Anyone can do it, right?
- And that I think was the essence of what often social work meant
- when I was kind of growing up or when people looked at it.
- So people often looked at social work from a very charity model,
- like you do--
- because as human beings, we all want to do good.
- So, you know, it was all about like helping others,
- doing charity.
- And that unfortunately does not create space for social change.
- So since we have the same background-- you know,
- we're both from India, Kolkata, it's
- interesting that you mentioned the charity model.
- Because that is how I think of social work, as well.
- Right?
- My mother giving away food, my mother
- giving away her ornaments, her sari, and this and that.
- But that's also the kind of social work
- that comes from certain culture.
- I think every culture has its own way of
- sort of doing social work, right?
- The kind of work I do, like I'm writing
- a check to this company, that organization.
- That's the kind of social work I do,
- very different from what I've seen being done in my family.
- So as a professionally trained social worker
- now, what do you think is the place of the charity model
- kind of social work?
- Because many cultures thrive on that model even now.
- Yes, and that has its own space, and that
- is a really important thing.
- Because as human beings, again, like
- for us to be able to help someone
- who is less fortunate than us, it's
- kind of part of like our self-actualization process.
- The issue that I often think about in the charity model,
- and that is--
- sometimes that model completely lacks
- an analysis of things that plague a society.
- So for instance, if you're talking about India,
- like thinking about issues of caste, class, gender.
- Like all these different lenses are missing from the charity
- model, because you are dependent on someone's goodwill
- and generosity for the work to happen.
- And what if that person is unable or does not
- feel generous one day?
- So it creates this system where we're not-- we're
- kind of maintaining the status quo,
- and it's not creating social change.
- So to me, there is a place for that,
- because we do need people to help with that check.
- But there has to be a system in place,
- or there has to be a professional delivery
- of those services.
- So you went to the poet, and you were going to tell him
- that you were coming to the US.
- You ... a slightly discouraging
- conversation maybe.
- But at the time, you did come to the US.
- So tell us about your move to the US.
- When did it happen?
- How?
- And what followed?
- Sure.
- So I came to the US in 2005, and I--
- there was like, you know, I was--
- I had recently gotten married to the person I deeply loved,
- and I was going to join him in his journey here.
- At the same time, I had applied to graduate school
- and was going to start school in a few months after coming here.
- And so what-- and you pursued your master's in social work?
- Tell us a little bit about that.
- What did that degree mean for you?
- Sure.
- So that was, you know, an incredible experience,
- going to school, going to graduate school here
- in New York City.
- One of the first things that happened to me--
- and I think this is often the immigrant experience--
- is I became racialized.
- Like I became a person who had to think about their race.
- I mean, growing up, I didn't have a much nuanced
- understanding of race.
- And in my early years here, I sometimes
- think it was often like an existential crisis
- trying to check a box.
- Because, you know, the boxes would be like Asian-American,
- and African-American.
- And I knew I was from Asia.
- So I kind of fit into that box.
- But I wasn't American, so that was--
- every time, that form like threw me off
- into an existential crisis.
- And I often ended up checking the "other" box.
- So this whole concept of race and racialization
- and coming to terms with identity
- was a big part of graduate school here in New York City.
- And you also received excellent training,
- because you won these very, very prestigious awards
- as a social worker and fellowships for the work
- that you have done.
- So looking back-- and I want to ask,
- you know, like a set of questions
- to you about your role now.
- But just looking back at the incredible arc of work
- that you've done, can you think about specific sort
- of cases that impacted you, that changed you,
- that were challenging, that had a lot of meaning to you?
- Before you joined here as assistant commissioner.
- Sure.
- I mean, as I mentioned, there was this--
- you know, I came to this country on the heels of 9/11.
- And in some ways, being a brown person in New York City
- led me to find my South Asian communities.
- And I knew, because of my ability
- to be full fluency bilingual, and the recent skills that I
- have developed through going to grad school,
- that I would be someone who would contribute
- to the community as much.
- And this was like a mutual relationship.
- I needed the community as much as the community needed me.
- So my trajectory has more than often
- been working with different South Asian organizations
- here in New York City.
- I worked at Sakhi, and then later I
- worked in another organization called [? Sapna ?] NYC.
- And there's one particular project that--
- you know, there are quite a few.
- But there's just one that kind of stands out
- for me all the time is, I worked in an NIH funded community
- based participatory research program that helped address
- the issue of diabetes in South Asian women using a very
- culturally competent framework.
- And you know, it was a research project,
- and it made a difference.
- Like we collected data.
- And this was very meaningful personally to me.
- Because around the same time, back in India,
- I lost a very dear childhood friend
- to diabetes related complications.
- So to me, this project, and being
- able to assist women who were exactly like my friend
- was very, very meaningful.
- And it felt like, you know, that I was making
- a meaningful contribution.
- I'm sorry to hear about your friend.
- And yes, I found out myself that India
- is sort of a diabetic capital of the world.
- You know, it's become-- as Bengalis,
- we can blame it on the love of rice that we have.
- So coming to your current role right now--
- and because I have a set of questions on that,
- if you could start off by telling us,
- what is your role as assistant commissioner in New York City's
- Commission on Human Rights?
- What do you do?
- What's your job profile?
- Mhm.
- Absolutely.
- And even before I do that, I'm just going to take a moment
- and talk about the New York City Commission on Human Rights.
- Because I do understand not all municipalities have
- similar rights and protections.
- So we are a city agency that, on one hand,
- educates communities about their rights and obligations,
- and on the other hand enforces the law.
- And the law itself is called the New York City Human Rights Law.
- It's a civil rights law, and it protects people in all the five
- boroughs of the city from discrimination
- in areas of housing, employment, public accommodations,
- across like 26 protected categories.
- So the protections that the law offers
- are often beyond core civil rights protections,
- like race, religion, or disability.
- In many cases, New York City was the first, or one of the first,
- jurisdictions to have or offer such protections.
- So my part of the agency is responsible for community
- outreach, education, and fostering intergroup relations
- between diverse communities that call New York City home.
- I oversee personnel, the different-- the borough
- operations, and work with our specialized aid advisors.
- We use various outreach methods to do so.
- As we know, communities are unique.
- And cookie cutter solutions don't work.
- Informing New Yorkers, that's no matter who you are,
- where you come from, who you love,
- how you worship or don't, you are protected under the law.
- And I also oversee our bias response work.
- So whenever there is an incident of hate or bias
- that takes place, because the person
- is targeted due to one of their protected classes,
- my team response to it from a very community solutions
- perspective.
- So I'm just thinking, you work with the community.
- And of course, you know, sort of a no-brainer question
- that will sort of pop up in everyone's mind
- is like, how do you work right now
- in the middle of a pandemic?
- Where, you know, social distancing is the norm.
- The community cannot get together.
- Just the definition of community is changing.
- So what has been the most,
- ... the obstacles?
- And how have you been responding to that?
- And how has the work continued despite the pandemic,
- or in the middle of the pandemic?
- Yeah.
- Great questions, Dharitri.
- Because as human beings, in general, we crave
- and we thrive on personal connections to each other,
- right?
- So the pandemic definitely has posed a unique challenge.
- So we've pivoted to a more wider online format of our programs.
- Like we've organized panels, in language--
- within our agency, we speak over 30 different languages.
- You know, language town halls, another way to reach audience.
- To be honest, I think, you know, in some ways, in one day,
- we're able to organize multiple of such events.
- And people may be watching us at that time.
- Or if we go back and see people--
- more people have watched later.
- So all this to say, it is unique.
- And we are moving with the flow.
- At the same time, we are cognizant of the fact
- that we are missing out on several communities, right?
- Like going back to what I talked about in the first place,
- like our constant question that we try to grapple
- with is, who is missing?
- Who are we missing?
- So that is definitely a challenge that is there.
- So you mentioned that one of the work that you do
- is related to bias response.
- So can you talk a little bit more in depth about that?
- Because I think, again, with the pandemic,
- one of the-- sort of the headline grabbing news
- has been the biases that have come forth
- in terms of if you're Asian, if you're Chinese, right?
- The kind of-- and I mean, that's just what comes to my mind.
- But how do you deal with bias response?
- How are you educating?
- And how are you evaluating the success
- of the work you're doing?
- Yeah.
- So as early as February, we--
- so one of the ways that we work with different communities
- is we make sure we have staff members who
- are from the community.
- So people who look like the people they serve,
- who speak the same language as the people they serve.
- So we-- as early as February, we were
- seeing instances of like anti-Asian bias
- and discrimination cases in New York City in public spaces.
- So we got together with advocates and other community
- organizations to, you know, on one hand
- to make sure that people knew what their rights
- and responsibilities were.
- On the other hand, made sure that people knew how to report.
- Because that's the other thing.
- We often see that communities, particularly
- immigrant communities, often under report
- for various reasons.
- And we also made sure that we were
- talking very boldly and very clearly
- that scapegoating entire communities
- and blaming them for a virus is completely not
- acceptable in New York City.
- Like that's not OK.
- And so we listened to the community.
- We created a feedback loop.
- We made sure we were working closely to--
- so the city was responding to these incidents.
- We also did another thing in collaboration
- with another organization, and we
- created these bystander intervention trainings.
- Where we often felt like, you know, human beings wanted
- to like-- you know, if there was a bias incident happening,
- a lot of times people felt that they could intervene
- but didn't have the right tools to do so.
- And of course, making sure that they were safe first in order
- to do it.
- So one of the things that we did were,
- working with the Center for Anti-Violence Education,
- created these bystander intervention trainings
- and do them and spread them out in different languages.
- So different kind of community related response to bias
- along with making sure people were
- aware through different community and ethnic media
- outreach and other such tools that we
- responded to many of these incidents that happened.
- And we continue to do so.
- So another sort of kind of work you do
- is also reaching out to underserved populations, right?
- And including your outreach services.
- So again, how has that changed?
- And how have you continued to do that?
- One of the ways--
- you know, I mean, communities in New York City,
- or anywhere, as a matter of fact,
- could be underserved because it's across different lines.
- It's across racial lines, religious lines, immigration
- status, gender identity.
- And we often see that, for communities-- particularly
- recent immigrant communities-- there
- is a historic distrust in government for various reasons,
- including the fact that some people have migrated
- to another country because to leave
- the experience in their home country,
- to kind of get away from the experience with government back
- in their home country.
- So that has always been a unique challenge.
- And again, making sure that we are hiring
- and working with staff who represent the community is
- a big part of it, working with different community based
- organizations that serve different communities so
- that we have a partner who is bringing us in and is
- like a more trusted source than we are as part of government.
- And making sure that, you know, when issues come to us,
- that we are immediately responsive.
- Like that those are some ways that we
- make sure that the communities that are identified as
- underserved, that we continue to be able to serve them,
- even during this pandemic.
- Thank you.
- So my next question for you is directed to you
- as a New Yorker.
- OK, so if you look at March.
- In March, I'm-- what do I think of New York as sort of one
- of the worst examples coming from the West.
- But just in the last two, three weeks,
- it looks like the narrative has changed.
- It's being compared to Europe, which at this point
- is a huge compliment.
- So as a New Yorker, how do you feel?
- Like how your city has done, and how
- do you feel right now looking ahead?
- I have to say, as a New Yorker, I'm
- extremely proud of my fellow New Yorkers.
- We were resilient.
- We-- in the face of great adversity, we came together,
- followed public health guidance, followed the science
- and collectively helped flatten the curve.
- When it was time to stay at home at the beginning
- of the pandemic, we stayed at home.
- When things started opening up in phases,
- we practiced and continued to practice both social distancing
- roles as well as wearing masks in public spaces.
- We understand that this is a public health crisis
- and politicizing it is not going to help anyone.
- So I am-- as a New Yorker, I'm really appreciative and proud
- of all of us, how we came together essentially
- to deal with this pandemic.
- So the social work sector, right?
- How has that sector done?
- And my question is coming from the fact that, of course,
- I mean, for all of us living through this, you know?
- All our professions are undergoing changes.
- I am from academia.
- Right now, the most important discussion
- is like, how important is it to be in class and teaching?
- Or can you just teach on Zoom for the next two years, right?
- So what are some of the critical conversations that
- are happening in your sector?
- And it doesn't have to be from New York.
- Have you been following the work that your sector
- has been doing in other parts of the world, in US, wherever?
- Yeah.
- So a couple of things.
- One, I think, is the role of social workers,
- particularly those engaging in mental health profession,
- has become--
- excuse me-- has become very critical.
- I mean, you know, we all have seen it.
- Like the pandemic has affected everyone
- with like coping with loss, isolation, trauma.
- And social workers, along with other mental health providers,
- have kind of stepped up to that role.
- Because that's where the need is.
- Similarly, in terms of other sectors,
- the nonprofit sector is also taking
- a hit in terms of unemployment, loss of funding,
- and other related issues.
- So those are the new realities of the sector.
- As I mentioned earlier, a lot of this work is in person, right?
- Like we-- as human beings, we crave that in-person connection
- to another human being.
- And now moving this entire thing virtually is a transition.
- So that's another part of the sector is also dealing with,
- how do you continue to provide the same quality of service
- but to do it in a virtual way?
- So there's a question that we've been
- asking everyone in this series.
- And the question is if there was a certain moment when
- you realized you're living through a global pandemic,
- which is historic.
- So if there was a moment, can you describe the moment?
- Sure.
- So I think it has been a series of moments.
- It's kind of difficult to pinpoint one.
- But I do have a life mimicking art realization moment.
- So during the pandemic, I actually
- have been watching old episodes of Downton Abbey.
- In Session 2, you know, they celebrate the new year
- and welcome 1920 with hope and resiliency
- after having suffered loss and grieved
- through the war and the Spanish flu.
- While watching that episode, I
- feel I have one of those moments when I realize,
- you know, it is, end of day, still art.
- But that 100 years later, we are in the midst
- of another global pandemic.
- And it also made me realize, in a very weird way,
- this too shall pass, and we will come out of it
- in a different way.
- Is there anything you would
- like, you know, again from your perspective,
- like a word of advice or anything
- else that you'd like to share with our audience?
- Sure, I do.
- I hope everyone who's listening in or will listen in later,
- for us to realize that there is no stigma,
- there is no shame in seeking help
- when we are having difficulties, processing things, making
- sense of things.
- The pandemic has made precarious and deeply
- affected everybody's well-being, from young kids to older
- adults.
- And we all feel a range of emotions,
- or even feel nothing at all, be numb.
- And it is OK for all of us to experience that--
- those feelings.
- And it is OK to seek help.
- Because, you know, if something was physically wrong
- with our body, we would have sought help.
- And it is OK to do that for our mental health, as well.
- So the social worker in me cannot stress this enough.
- Thank you so much.
- And though we hear this, in a lot of venues and all that.
- But I just think--
- I've always felt that it bears repeating, only because someone
- might be--
- who should be listening to this right
- now is hopefully listening.
- So thank you so much.
- And at this point, I will ask our audience
- to-- if they want to ask questions to Kajori,
- this would be the time.
- So you can turn on your microphone.
- You can also turn on your video so that we can see you.
- And you can ask questions to Kajori.
- And if you do not feel like asking the question,
- some people have in the past us also typed questions.
- So that will also be completely acceptable.
- So yes, we have some time.
- Please raise your hand or say something
- if you want to ask the question to Kajori.
- Hi, Kajori.
- My name is Amber.
- Thank you so much for telling your story.
- Hi, Athena.
- Hi, Dharitri.
- Hi, Ruth.
- It's so inspiring to hear about the ways
- that New York has embraced really multicultural
- leadership.
- And I think I have two questions.
- One, you know, the South Asian-American communities
- were particularly hard hit kind of at both ends of the spectrum
- during COVID, both being frontline workers in hospitals
- and in places like taxi drivers and food delivery
- and restaurant workers and things.
- So I guess my question is, as a South Asian-American woman,
- were there any tools that you kind of--
- I mean, obviously, your professional training
- as a social worker.
- But are there any ways in which you felt you were particularly
- well equipped to serve the Sikh communities, South
- Asian American communities?
- And then my second question is maybe more personal,
- which is what is it that you are most proud of, that you feel
- like you have been able to do in your work
- during this time for the communities writ large--
- the communities that you serve?
- It's nice meeting you too, Amber.
- So I think for essential workers,
- and the way we've seen it here in New York City, our goal--
- and we have-- so I was talking about the war, right,
- a little while ago.
- So some of the things are covered.
- So like for instance, in housing,
- someone cannot be discriminated because of, A,
- their country of origin, B, because of their lawful
- occupation.
- So we've had inquiries--
- and we've made sure, on the outreach part, where
- my part of the agency works, is making sure
- that the communities were aware of this.
- And then, on our law enforcement side, they took these inquiries
- and did pre-complaint interventions on cases
- where, let's say someone is a South Asian essential worker,
- and their landlord decides that, you know, you are probably
- bringing COVID into the building,
- so I'm going to charge you extra to do the cleaning.
- And that's discrimination under the law.
- So being able to make sure that the information under the law
- is available.
- So we worked very closely with like organizations
- like, you know, the--
- I personally did the town hall with the American Pakistani
- Advocacy Group, like some of my colleagues
- did with [? Triple-A ?] NY and other places,
- just making sure that communities were aware.
- That's one.
- And the other part to it is, you know,
- I think there are moments.
- But honestly, no matter what we do,
- it always feels there's more we can do.
- So, I mean, I think a lot of our bias response work--
- particularly, one thing that I personally felt was like
- a beautiful moment of community solidarity was--
- as I'd said, you know, we work through different lead advisor
- and liaisons who work with different communities
- in New York City and making sure that communities have
- direct access to government.
- And that's exactly what the role of government should be, right?
- So our lead advisor for our African communities
- came to us saying that the community has been talking
- about their experience during Ebola,
- like facing the similar discrimination
- and bias that had occurred a few years ago, right?
- Ebola was a few years ago.
- Right.
- So then we brainstormed and we then were like, would it help--
- and we created this with, again, our partners, the Center
- for Anti-Violence Education, a bystander intervention training
- that focused on those experience--
- was able to draw upon those experiences
- for the African community and connect them with the reality
- now.
- So building community solidarity and being able to do that,
- I think that was like one of my highlights.
- But again, you know, there's more--
- we've done so and so, and we have more to do.
- That gives me chills.
- I think that was--
- it's such important work.
- Thank you for doing it.
- Any other questions?
- OK.
- I'll hand it over to Athena.
- But I really find it very exciting
- that every week, apart from the usual suspects
- I often see, like someone new like Janna, Matt, Mary,
- [INAUDIBLE].
- Thank you for coming.
- So we have one more this week on Thursday,
- and we have two more interviews, and next week is the last week.
- So please keep coming if you're interested, and all of these
- will be available for decades and decades to come.
- Because they're all being recorded
- and it's going to be part of a Western's archival collections.
- So thank you again for taking the time to join.
- And Kajori, thank you so much.
- And I'll hand it over to Athena now if there's
- anything she wants to add.
- Great.
- No, thank you so much for another wonderful interview.
- And again, just to echo what you said,
- thank you to everyone for being here.
- I also appreciate looking across and seeing some new names
- and old names joining us week after week.
- It's so wonderful our audience is such an important part
- of this project.
- And the questions you bring are always wonderful.
- So thank you so much for joining us.
- And we hope to see you again on Thursday
- or next week for another session of Stories to Tell.
- Have a wonderful afternoon and thank you so much.
- Thank you to you both for today.
- Thank you.
- Bye, everyone.
- Thank you.
- Thank you, everyone.
- Bye.
- Bye.